Re: TC toe in

[laf48@aol.com]

I know the correct toe in is 1/4", but how do they react to 0 toe? TIA Len


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[sculptart@aol.com]

Len,

With 0 toe in, the wheels tend to steer themselves with each small or large
bump. Makes the car wander all over the place and you find yourself constantly
correcting.

Ben


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Roger Furneaux]

hi Len, Ben, et al - the theory is that you need toe-in, because at speed
the tie-rod end springs compress so that the wheels run parallel. Now the
joints should be adjusted so that the springs are almost compressed, so I've
never really believed this. TC0978 is fitted with Rose-jointed rods, and I
got some tyre scrub until I realised I needed to set up with 0 toe-in...

ocTagonally

TCRoger

>
>With 0 toe in, the wheels tend to steer themselves with each small or large
>bump. Makes the car wander all over the place and you find yourself constantly
> correcting.

[Roger Furneaux]

hi Peter - the "Brown Book" has this on p.21: "the slotted end plug should
be screwed up tightly and then released half a turn and the split pin
replaced". You should, of course always use a new split pin! And because
half a turn might not line up a slot, it is better to back off 1/4 turn plus
a bit more if required.
Rose joints are "rod end bearings" as used on hydraulic cylinders and racing
cars for many years. They comprise a spherical stainless steel inner ball
with through hole for mounting, which rotates in a plastic outer part which
is crimped into a plated steel housing, with either male or female threaded
ends. Don't ask me how they assemble them! Exposed to the elements, but
self-lubricating, and of course no play until they wear out (no adjustment).
Very "non-TC" but they give precise steering with no maintenance (smaller
ones are used on the Panhard rods which I will be making soon)

ocTagonally

TCRoger


Peter Roberts asked:

>Would you please expand on your comment that the "joints should be adjusted
>so that the springs are almost compressed"?
>I have searched for instruction on this and found nothing in the usual
>sources. Is this possibly the source of the play in the steering wheel
>(i.e. about 1-1 1/2 ")? How about the track rod? How do we determine
>"almost compressed"?

>> hi Len, Ben, et al - the theory is that you need toe-in, because at speed
>> the tie-rod end springs compress so that the wheels run parallel. Now the
>> joints should be adjusted so that the springs are almost compressed, so
>> I've
>> never really believed this. TC0978 is fitted with Rose-jointed rods, and I
>> got some tyre scrub until I realised I needed to set up with 0 toe-in...
>> ocTagonally
>> TCRoger

[Graham Knight]

Roger,

>Rose joints are "rod end bearings" as used on hydraulic cylinders and racing
>cars for many years. They comprise a spherical stainless steel inner ball
>with through hole for mounting, which rotates in a plastic outer part which
>is crimped into a plated steel housing, with either male or female threaded
>ends.

Where do I get them and what do I ask for?

Graham

[candahill@worldnet.att.net]

Graham,

I've finally learned that "rose joint" is British for what Americans call a "heim joint." So what you look for will depend on where you are looking. In the US, most hot rod and racer supply stores should have them.

Charles Hill



-------------- Original message from Graham Knight : --------------

> Roger,
>
> >Rose joints are "rod end bearings" as used on hydraulic cylinders and racing
> >cars for many years. They comprise a spherical stainless steel inner ball
> >with through hole for mounting, which rotates in a plastic outer part which
> >is crimped into a plated steel housing, with either male or female threaded
> >ends.
>
> Where do I get them and what do I ask for?
>
> Graham
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Graham Knight]

Charles,

Many thanks. I am hoping someone will come up with a part number so I know
exactly what I should buy!

Graham

At 19:50 20/09/2005 +0000, you wrote:

>Graham,
>
>I've finally learned that "rose joint" is British for what Americans call
>a "heim joint." So what you look for will depend on where you are
>looking. In the US, most hot rod and racer supply stores should have them.
>
>Charles Hill
>
>
>
>-------------- Original message from Graham Knight
>: --------------
>
>
> > Roger,
> >
> > >Rose joints are "rod end bearings" as used on hydraulic cylinders and
> racing
> > >cars for many years. They comprise a spherical stainless steel inner ball
> > >with through hole for mounting, which rotates in a plastic outer part
> which
> > >is crimped into a plated steel housing, with either male or female
> threaded
> > >ends.
> >
> > Where do I get them and what do I ask for?
> >
> > Graham
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

[Peter Roberts]

_Peter

----- Original Message -----
From: "Graham Knight"
To: "Peter Roberts"
Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2005 4:17 PM
Subject: Re: [mg-tabc] TC toe in


> Peter,
>
> Very interesting, thanks. I don't think you copied this to the list. I am
> sure they would be interested.
>
> Graham
>
> At 15:58 20/09/2005 -0400, you wrote:
>>Here is more on the Heim Joint
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> History of the Heim Joint - AKA Rod End Bearing
>>
>>
>> World War II produced a host of inventions, some of which are still
>> in use today. It's common knowledge that the Germans used nitrous oxide
>> to make the Messerschmitt fighter planes climb higher and faster than the
>> Allies' planes. When the allies shot down the first German plane they
>> noted a unique device also pioneered by Messerschmitt, the rod end.
>>
>> One U.S. company received the nod to duplicate this new control
>> link. The H.G. Heim company was granted all U.S. patents, and to this day
>> the part retains the nickname "Heim Joint". After the Korean War the
>> surplus aircraft parts market boomed. Hundreds of varieties of rod ends
>> became available at a tenth of their original cost. Many of these parts,
>> while designed for aircraft, were not up to the task of suspension links
>> for race cars. High quality and economical rod ends didn't appear until
>> the late '70s. They were produced by a Japanese company, N.M.B., which
>> was caught by the U.S. government "dumping" (selling below cost) rod ends
>> in the U.S. market. N.M.B. had to form a U.S. presence or leave the
>> marketplace, so they bought a U.S. company, N.H.B.B. (New Hampshire Ball
>> Bearing) and continue to make aircraft-quality rod ends today.
>>
>> As the Heim patents ran out, a U.S. company began to manufacture
>> economical rod ends for the power transmission industry. Superior
>> Industries mass produced economical rod ends and over the course of a few
>> years people from Superior formed Aurora, National, and several other rod
>> end companies. Today over fifteen American companies make rod ends in the
>> U.S. These products run the gamut from the stamped steel bodies used in
>> control links for garden tractors to the 17-4 PH stainless units found on
>> nuclear submarines.
>>
>>
>>_Peter
>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Graham Knight"
>>
>>To: "Roger Furneaux"
>>Cc: "Peter Roberts" ; ".T-ABCs"
>>
>>Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2005 2:42 PM
>>Subject: Re: [mg-tabc] TC toe in
>>
>>
>>>Roger,
>>>
>>>>Rose joints are "rod end bearings" as used on hydraulic cylinders and
>>>>racing
>>>>cars for many years. They comprise a spherical stainless steel inner
>>>>ball
>>>>with through hole for mounting, which rotates in a plastic outer part
>>>>which
>>>>is crimped into a plated steel housing, with either male or female
>>>>threaded
>>>>ends.
>>>
>>>Where do I get them and what do I ask for?
>>>
>>>Graham
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Yahoo! Groups Links
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>

[Pavone, John (Corporate)]

Graham,

You can get them here: http://www.pegasusautoracing.com/group.asp?GroupID=AURORA

JP

TC2797

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Where do I get them and what do I ask for?

Graham




Yahoo! Groups Links

[Joe Gates]

Graham, Charles and Roger, inter alia, discussed "rose" and "heim" joints.
Another possibility are "ball" joints which I had fitted to my TC (sourced
from Mazda I think), along with a Datsun box, VW damper and compression
struts whilst reversing the tapered shims to add castor. Being a
techno-peasant, I include an interesting link to ball-joints that I found
via the net. Suffice to say, I think it all lies in the lubrication!

http://autorepair.about.com/cs/generalinfo/l/bldef_069.htm

Joe