Bearings and cages

[Graham Knight]

Dear All,

Cages tend to be very flimsy. I find it hard to believe that they could maintain even spacing of the balls if the balls were strongly inclined to arrange themselves otherwise. I conclude from this that the balls somehow tend towards even spacing.

Does that make sense?

Graham

On 22 December 2017 3:15:26 p.m. Graham Knight graham.knight5@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear All,

Thanks for all the advice. I will try some grade 10 1/4 inch.

Graham

On 22 December 2017 1:09:13 p.m. "Stephen D Stierman morgan7709@sbcglobal.net [mg-tabc]" mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

I can't believe that using loose bearings in a BC box makes one bit of difference in the amount of friction that is imparted, sorry. Quality racing bicycles where friction was an issue were always assembled with loose bearings, particularly in the hubs and crankset.Steve TC2911 [b]From:[/b] "'Mark M' tc8126@earthlink.net [mg-tabc]" mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> [b]To:[/b] Yahoogroups mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com> [b]Sent:[/b] Friday, December 22, 2017 6:10 AM [b]Subject:[/b] Re: [mg-tabc] Bearings   As a comparison, most motorcycle front forks use loose bearings at the headstock, packed in grease in the frame 'cup' to hold them in position until the mating 'cone' on the fork fits to it.   ~Mark TC8126     ----- Original Message ----- [b]From:[/b] i.thomson@talk21.com%20[mg-tabc] [b]To:[/b] mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [b]Sent:[/b] Friday, December 22, 2017 4:32 AM [b]Subject:[/b] [mg-tabc] Bearings   Re: "Yes, as a work around you could use separate balls packed in grease but these can rub on each other and cause resistance.  The purpose of the cage is to allow the balls to run independent with minimal friction." You are right Doug.  Without a cage the balls will rub as any two will be moving in different directions at the point of contact.  It has always struck me though that even with a cage there is a degree of friction present as any particular ball is rubbing against the cage.  The difference is that the cage is static so perhaps the friction is half that without the cage.  I will leave it to others to do the maths.  In this particular case though I doubt if it is significant. Ian Thomson Notts. UK.

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[Steve S]

There were many instances on bicycles where we found the stainless steel cage had been worn through, then come apart and destroyed the bearings and races. Individual balls will not hold themselves evenly spaced, but it doesn't really matter. A high quality grease would help to eliminate any friction between individual ball bearings. We would often replace a 9-ball cage with 10 individual balls, which would leave a gap of less than 1/2 the width of one ball. - Steve Simmons, TC8975 On 12/22/2017 9:01 AM, Graham Knight graham.knight5@gmail.com [mg-tabc] wrote:

Dear All,

Cages tend to be very flimsy. I find it hard to believe that they could maintain even spacing of the balls if the balls were strongly inclined to arrange themselves otherwise. I conclude from this that the balls somehow tend towards even spacing.

Does that make sense?

Graham

On 22 December 2017 3:15:26 p.m. Graham Knight graham.knight5@gmail.com wrote:

Dear All,

Thanks for all the advice. I will try some grade 10 1/4 inch.

Graham

On 22 December 2017 1:09:13 p.m. "Stephen D Stierman morgan7709@sbcglobal.net [mg-tabc]" mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com wrote:

I can't believe that using loose bearings in a BC box makes one bit of difference in the amount of friction that is imparted, sorry. Quality racing bicycles where friction was an issue were always assembled with loose bearings, particularly in the hubs and crankset. Steve TC2911 [b]From:[/b] "'Mark M' tc8126@earthlink.net [mg-tabc]" mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com [b]To:[/b] Yahoogroups mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [b]Sent:[/b] Friday, December 22, 2017 6:10 AM [b]Subject:[/b] Re: [mg-tabc] Bearings As a comparison, most motorcycle front forks use loose bearings at the headstock, packed in grease in the frame 'cup' to hold them in position until the mating 'cone' on the fork fits to it. ~Mark TC8126 ----- Original Message ----- [b]From:[/b] i.thomson@talk21.com%20[mg-tabc] [b]To:[/b] mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [b]Sent:[/b] Friday, December 22, 2017 4:32 AM [b]Subject:[/b] [mg-tabc] Bearings Re: "Yes, as a work around you could use separate balls packed in grease but these can rub on each other and cause resistance. The purpose of the cage is to allow the balls to run independent with minimal friction." You are right Doug. Without a cage the balls will rub as any two will be moving in different directions at the point of contact. It has always struck me though that even with a cage there is a degree of friction present as any particular ball is rubbing against the cage. The difference is that the cage is static so perhaps the friction is half that without the cage. I will leave it to others to do the maths. In this particular case though I doubt if it is significant. Ian Thomson Notts. UK.

[Duncan]

Hard to imagine how the BC bearings in question would wear out or wreck the simple cage or balls. I guess it can happen if someone never changed the oil or let it go dry on a long drive or packed grease in the box, or failed to ever adjust the "end play" through the shims at end plate. That critical adjustment that is to be done before the top plate shims (or thompson kit) adjustment. Same simple 2 adjustments that were not done years ago, and convinced so many people to abandon the original BC system. Those caged bearings are under very little load, and would not benefit from any extra balls. Duncan- TC9866 --------------------------------------------

On Fri, 12/22/17, Steve S mail@mgnuts.com [mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> wrote: Subject: Re: [mg-tabc] Bearings and cages To: "mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com >> TABC" mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com> Date: Friday, December 22, 2017, 9:49 AM There were many instances on bicycles where we found the stainless steel cage had been worn through, then come apart and destroyed the bearings and races. Individual balls will not hold themselves evenly spaced, but it doesn't really matter. A high quality grease would help to eliminate any friction between individual ball bearings. We would often replace a 9-ball cage with 10 individual balls, which would leave a gap of less than 1/2 the width of one ball. - Steve Simmons, TC8975 On 12/22/2017 9:01 AM, Graham Knight graham.knight5@gmail.com [mg-tabc] wrote: Dear All, Cages tend to be very flimsy. I find it hard to believe that they could maintain even spacing of the balls if the balls were strongly inclined to arrange themselves otherwise. I conclude from this that the balls somehow tend towards even spacing. Does that make sense? Graham On 22 December 2017 3:15:26 p.m. Graham Knight graham.knight5@gmail.com> wrote: Dear All, Thanks for all the advice. I will try some grade 10 1/4 inch. Graham On 22 December 2017 1:09:13 p.m. "Stephen D Stierman morgan7709@sbcglobal.net [mg-tabc]" mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> wrote: I can't believe that using loose bearings in a BC box makes one bit of difference in the amount of friction that is imparted, sorry. Quality racing bicycles where friction was an issue were always assembled with loose bearings, particularly in the hubs and crankset. Steve TC2911 From: "'Mark M' tc8126@earthlink.net [mg-tabc]" mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> To: Yahoogroups mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com>