alignment

[Stephen D Stierman]

 The peg located at the top of the sector shaft should be positioned over the high spot in the grooved worm in the straight ahead position if all things are adjusted correctly.  With the wheels off the ground this will be felt as a slight stiff spot as the steering wheel is turned left and right as the peg rides over the worm. This would lesson lost motion in the straight ahead position.  I am not sure that this was designed to preclude wandering or just to minimize lost motion, but all of these steering boxes from English cars of the period were designed in this way; TR, Healey, Morgan and others.  There is always a bit of lost motion on center.  But once again it is not the steering box that is the cause of wandering but more likely suspension faults or mis alignments.Steve TC2911 [b]From:[/b] "Duncan morelists@yahoo.com [mg-tabc]" mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> [b]To:[/b] mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com; morgan7709@sbcglobal.net [b]Sent:[/b] Wednesday, September 20, 2017 3:11 PM [b]Subject:[/b] Re: [mg-tabc] alignment   While front end alignment and maintenance of links, etc. are all important to straight ahead steering, as Stephen brings up, the BC box originally did have a feature built into it to help avoid wandering. Apparently some of the replacement worms over the years failed to incorporate the "straight ahead" feature. Essentially, the depth of the groove where the sector shaft peg runs should become shallower at straight ahead. That causes the sector shaft to run higher than normal (at straight ahead) and slightly rub against the top plate. Bench adjustment procedure for the BC box has you first adjusting the ball bearing end play through the shims at the end plate, and then adjusting the top plate shims until a very slight drag can be noted at straight ahead, only. If a BC box has an aftermarket worm that was not machined correctly, there will be no shallower groove at straight ahead, and so no drag. I imagine people with those aftermarket worms adjust for slight drag throughout the range, using either the shimmed plate or the Tompkins kit, and go for adjusting for the least lost motion; but they get no assistance from the BC box to "steady" straight ahead driving. Or maybe all the newer worms lack the feature? Hard to tell, as nobody ever talks about it, including the people selling the worms. ttypes.org/ttt2 ran an article of the little known complexities of the BC Box in Issue 26, October 2014 which goes into detail, and has good drawings to explain. Also it gives a warning to anyone using the Tompkins kit with an old or original sector shaft. http://ttypes.org/ttt2/?s=bc+steering&submit=Search Or search there for "bc steering" Duncan- TC9866 California --------------------------------------------

On Wed, 9/20/17, Stephen D Stierman morgan7709@sbcglobal.net [mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> wrote: Subject: Re: [mg-tabc] alignment To: "Richard Fritz" RBFritz@comcast.net>, "Ian Thomson" i.thomson@talk21.com>, "'Yahoogroups'" mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com> Date: Wednesday, September 20, 2017, 3:19 AM   Call it adjustment or not, it makes not difference.  My car had a replacement spring on one side that was drilled incorrectly for the locating pin and that side had a shortened wheelbase.  I 'adjusted' this by welding up and redrilling a proper locating peg. About the cam and peg, yes the peg needs to be adjusted in the straight ahead position on the top of the cam, however none of these boxes will ever be free of some lost motion no matter how carefully you adjust and that goes for the boxes used in all cars of the period; TR, Morgan, Austin, etc. etc.  It is not this bit of lost motion that makes the car wander it is incorrect toe, damaged and worn suspension, damaged tires, or other mechanical problems due to age and lack of maintenance.  Set up properly a car will track fairly straight even with a bit of lost motion in the steering box.  Both my TC and Morgan are pretty good and they do have the typical bit of lost motion.  They aren't like the rack and pinion in my Miatas, but they will stay in a fairly straight line even with bias ply tires.SteveTC2911 From: "'Richard Fritz' RBFritz@comcast.net [mg-tabc]" mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> To: Ian Thomson i.thomson@talk21.com>; 'Yahoogroups' mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2017 11:35 PM Subject: Re: [mg-tabc] alignment   It appears that Thomson and I will continue to have differences of opinion.  If moving the position of the axle on the rear springs is "not an adjustment", then what is it?  I have owned TC6649 since 1952 and it still has its original axle and springs.  If they were "not manufactured accurately enough" why did the problem not show up until recently?   The statement about adjusting the peg-to-cam setting to a very minimal drag is exactly the procedure described by Jim Buell in his detailed treatise "The MG TC Front End", which I think is in the TABC files.  If there is even a minimal gap (no drag) the peg on the sector shaft will wander from side to side on the cam when trying to drive down a straight road.       Richard Fritz, TC6649, Colorado USA   From: 'Ian Thomson' i.thomson@talk21.com [mg-tabc] Sent: Monday, September 18, 2017 12:12 PM To: 'Yahoogroups' Subject: RE: [mg-tabc] alignment   I have to disagree with both Fritz and Bill on this subject I am afraid.  The fact that small movements can be made to the rear axle does not constitute an adjustment Fritz.  It just means that the springs and/or the axle are not manufactured accurately enough.  Yes, we should be aware of this feature and can maybe use it to our advantage but really it is indicative of a fault without which we would not have to be doing the adjustment at all. Sadly the poor manufacture of aftermarket rear springs often leads to this with some people even reporting that the locating pips are in the wrong position.  I agree that the steering box may be slightly off centre while driving straight if the rear axle is not correctly aligned, always assuming that it was correctly centred in the first place.  This would certainly lead to slightly more play at the wheel in the straight ahead position as the pin would be riding in a position where the scroll is slightly wider. However, I don t think that most people would notice a slight misalignment of the steering box as it is possible to set the box straight ahead correctly and compensate for this on the track rod.  This can occur if, for instance, the drop arm/drag link is fitted wrongly on the splines. I myself have certainly done this.  It would, however, affect the turning circle and perhaps lead to scrubbing of the tyre on the chassis one side on full lock if severe.  I must take issue with your claim that there should be a little drag when set up in the straight ahead position though as this can lead to imprecise steering as the drag in the box works against you when steering straight.  The correct way is to adjust for minimum clearance with NO drag.   Bill, if the chassis is out of true the car will certainly tend crab but this will not necessarily lead to the scrubbing of the tyres as if the wheels are aligned correctly they will simply stay parallel while the rear will adopt a track which is not exactly in line with the front.  I expect there are lots of cars out there being used perfectly satisfactorily in this condition without the driver even being aware of it.  I believe that it is the lack of understanding of the multitude of variable involved  which leads, at least in part, to the poor reputation of the steering on our cars.  If it was better understood perhaps we would not need to resort to foreign parts being fitted to correct faults which will still exist but are now being covered up by the use of a box which simply has slower steering.  Please, please, please don t let this lead to yet another interminable discussion of the steering box where one opinion simply contradicts another.  This  is my opinion but it is based on the engineering discussion I have set out previously, and more.  Opinions based on little more that  they are opinions have all been aired just too often, and to little avail, in my opinion.  Sorry if that sounds pompous and of course I will be willing to discuss anything based on engineering. Regards Ian Thomson Notts. UK.

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[Duncan]

Of course what Stephen says about the taper of the worm at straight ahead is true. Certainly for the original worm. With the BC box adjusted for the slight drag, and the drop arm installed at 90 degrees to the direction of sector shaft arm, you would want to begin aligning the front wheels precisely in line with the back wheels when the steering wheel is right in the middle of feeling the drag. If or if not the center drag helps the steering keep pointed straight ahead I do not know, either. I suspect it helps. I found the "drag" at center steer was quite useful for checking alignment. I thought of using string or laser from the outer edge of the rear tire to the front wheel to ensure the fronts were in line with the rears, but soon found using my eyes to sight a line evenly on either side of the car worked out better, to check adjustments of the tie rod ends. When I went through the BC box I was lucky and only required shim adjustments, a new peg and top plate. I was also lucky to have straight tie rod and drag link tubes. All I required was a new drag link ball (most wear) and tie rod end balls (slight wear). The kingpins are still tight. Actually the toe in adjustment was perfect after going through the link ends and replacing the "balls," and no adjustments were needed. My sightings from rear to front indicated everything was as close to perfectly in-line as I could have adjusted for. I never did drive the TC before going through the front end, springs, wheels, bearings, bushings, tires, etc., so no "before" comparison. Driving it for the first time I was quite surprised to find every indication that the steering felt absolutely nothing like the bad stories. It feels tight (no notable lost motion) and quite stable at 55 mph, and the car seems happy to keep pointed straight down the road. On winding roads it lives up to its good reputation. Duncan CA --------------------------------------------

On Wed, 9/20/17, Stephen D Stierman morgan7709@sbcglobal.net> wrote: Subject: Re: [mg-tabc] alignment To: "Duncan" morelists@yahoo.com>, "mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com" mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com> Date: Wednesday, September 20, 2017, 1:45 PM The peg located at the top of the sector shaft should be positioned over the high spot in the grooved worm in the straight ahead position if all things are adjusted correctly. With the wheels off the ground this will be felt as a slight stiff spot as the steering wheel is turned left and right as the peg rides over the worm. This would lesson lost motion in the straight ahead position. I am not sure that this was designed to preclude wandering or just to minimize lost motion, but all of these steering boxes from English cars of the period were designed in this way; TR, Healey, Morgan and others. There is always a bit of lost motion on center. But once again it is not the steering box that is the cause of wandering but more likely suspension faults or mis alignments.Steve TC2911 From: "Duncan morelists@yahoo.com [mg-tabc]" mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> To: mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com; morgan7709@sbcglobal.net Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2017 3:11 PM Subject: Re: [mg-tabc] alignment While front end alignment and maintenance of links, etc. are all important to straight ahead steering, as Stephen brings up, the BC box originally did have a feature built into it to help avoid wandering. Apparently some of the replacement worms over the years failed to incorporate the "straight ahead" feature. Essentially, the depth of the groove where the sector shaft peg runs should become shallower at straight ahead. That causes the sector shaft to run higher than normal (at straight ahead) and slightly rub against the top plate. Bench adjustment procedure for the BC box has you first adjusting the ball bearing end play through the shims at the end plate, and then adjusting the top plate shims until a very slight drag can be noted at straight ahead, only. If a BC box has an aftermarket worm that was not machined correctly, there will be no shallower groove at straight ahead, and so no drag. I imagine people with those aftermarket worms adjust for slight drag throughout the range, using either the shimmed plate or the Tompkins kit, and go for adjusting for the least lost motion; but they get no assistance from the BC box to "steady" straight ahead driving. Or maybe all the newer worms lack the feature? Hard to tell, as nobody ever talks about it, including the people selling the worms. ttypes.org/ttt2 ran an article of the little known complexities of the BC Box in Issue 26, October 2014 which goes into detail, and has good drawings to explain. Also it gives a warning to anyone using the Tompkins kit with an old or original sector shaft. http://ttypes.org/ttt2/?s=bc+steering&submit=Search Or search there for "bc steering" Duncan- TC9866 California -------------------------------------------- On Wed, 9/20/17, Stephen D Stierman morgan7709@sbcglobal.net [mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> wrote: Subject: Re: [mg-tabc] alignment To: "Richard Fritz" RBFritz@comcast.net>, "Ian Thomson" i.thomson@talk21.com>, "'Yahoogroups'" mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com> Date: Wednesday, September 20, 2017, 3:19 AM Call it adjustment or not, it makes not difference. My car had a replacement spring on one side that was drilled incorrectly for the locating pin and that side had a shortened wheelbase. I 'adjusted' this by welding up and redrilling a proper locating peg. About the cam and peg, yes the peg needs to be adjusted in the straight ahead position on the top of the cam, however none of these boxes will ever be free of some lost motion no matter how carefully you adjust and that goes for the boxes used in all cars of the period; TR, Morgan, Austin, etc. etc. It is not this bit of lost motion that makes the car wander it is incorrect toe, damaged and worn suspension, damaged tires, or other mechanical problems due to age and lack of maintenance. Set up properly a car will track fairly straight even with a bit of lost motion in the steering box. Both my TC and Morgan are pretty good and they do have the typical bit of lost motion. They aren't like the rack and pinion in my Miatas, but they will stay in a fairly straight line even with bias ply tires.SteveTC2911 From: "'Richard Fritz' RBFritz@comcast.net [mg-tabc]" mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> To: Ian Thomson i.thomson@talk21.com>; 'Yahoogroups' mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2017 11:35 PM Subject: Re: [mg-tabc] alignment It appears that Thomson and I will continue to have differences of opinion. If moving the position of the axle on the rear springs is "not an adjustment", then what is it? I have owned TC6649 since 1952 and it still has its original axle and springs. If they were "not manufactured accurately enough" why did the problem not show up until recently? The statement about adjusting the peg-to-cam setting to a very minimal drag is exactly the procedure described by Jim Buell in his detailed treatise "The MG TC Front End", which I think is in the TABC files. If there is even a minimal gap (no drag) the peg on the sector shaft will wander from side to side on the cam when trying to drive down a straight road. Richard Fritz, TC6649, Colorado USA From: 'Ian Thomson' i.thomson@talk21.com [mg-tabc] Sent: Monday, September 18, 2017 12:12 PM To: 'Yahoogroups' Subject: RE: [mg-tabc] alignment I have to disagree with both Fritz and Bill on this subject I am afraid. The fact that small movements can be made to the rear axle does not constitute an adjustment Fritz. It just means that the springs and/or the axle are not manufactured accurately enough. Yes, we should be aware of this feature and can maybe use it to our advantage but really it is indicative of a fault without which we would not have to be doing the adjustment at all. Sadly the poor manufacture of aftermarket rear springs often leads to this with some people even reporting that the locating pips are in the wrong position. I agree that the steering box may be slightly off centre while driving straight if the rear axle is not correctly aligned, always assuming that it was correctly centred in the first place. This would certainly lead to slightly more play at the wheel in the straight ahead position as the pin would be riding in a position where the scroll is slightly wider. However, I don t think that most people would notice a slight misalignment of the steering box as it is possible to set the box straight ahead correctly and compensate for this on the track rod. This can occur if, for instance, the drop arm/drag link is fitted wrongly on the splines. I myself have certainly done this. It would, however, affect the turning circle and perhaps lead to scrubbing of the tyre on the chassis one side on full lock if severe. I must take issue with your claim that there should be a little drag when set up in the straight ahead position though as this can lead to imprecise steering as the drag in the box works against you when steering straight. The correct way is to adjust for minimum clearance with NO drag. Bill, if the chassis is out of true the car will certainly tend crab but this will not necessarily lead to the scrubbing of the tyres as if the wheels are aligned correctly they will simply stay parallel while the rear will adopt a track which is not exactly in line with the front. I expect there are lots of cars out there being used perfectly satisfactorily in this condition without the driver even being aware of it. I believe that it is the lack of understanding of the multitude of variable involved which leads, at least in part, to the poor reputation of the steering on our cars. If it was better understood perhaps we would not need to resort to foreign parts being fitted to correct faults which will still exist but are now being covered up by the use of a box which simply has slower steering. Please, please, please don t let this lead to yet another interminable discussion of the steering box where one opinion simply contradicts another. This is my opinion but it is based on the engineering discussion I have set out previously, and more. Opinions based on little more that they are opinions have all been aired just too often, and to little avail, in my opinion. Sorry if that sounds pompous and of course I will be willing to discuss anything based on engineering. Regards Ian Thomson Notts. 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[eworpe]

Hi Stephen, If only it were that simple, my previous e-mail referred to the "foot print" of the tyre being outside of the point where the king-pin axis meets the ground. One unfortunate effect of this is the tendency of the wheel to be swung backwards around the king-pin due to the wheel's rolling resistance with the ground. Normally this effect is balanced out by both wheels experiencing the same rolling resistance, so on smooth roads the car steers straight ahead. However, should one wheel experience a change in rolling resistance due to an undulation in the road surface, the different forces swinging the wheels backwards about the axis of the king-pins will result in a deflection of the front end. This could be the reason the TB & TC are twitchy, the TA with its side laced wheels does not suffer so much from this problem as the tyre's foot print almost straddles the extrapolated king pin's axis. Quite why MG chose to change the wheel offset is open to conjecture , it could be that centre laced wheels enabled improved cooling of the brake drums; increasing the track width also improves road holding. Why the toe-in adjustment should have such an effect on stability is puzzling as are the differences in advised toe-in. The TA with its side laced wheels should need a reduced toe in, yet has a recommended 1/2" toe in compared with the 3/16" of the TC. I suspect that lost motion in the steering box exaggerates any inherent instability of the front end. It does seem from your observations that adjusting the toe in for improved stability is worth trying out. Regards, Eric. ________________________________________ From: Stephen D Stierman morgan7709@sbcglobal.net The peg located at the top of the sector shaft should be positioned over the high spot in the grooved worm in the straight ahead position if all things are adjusted correctly. With the wheels off the ground this will be felt as a slight stiff spot as the steering wheel is turned left and right as the peg rides over the worm. This would lesson lost motion in the straight ahead position. I am not sure that this was designed to preclude wandering or just to minimize lost motion, but all of these steering boxes from English cars of the period were designed in this way; TR, Healey, Morgan and others. There is always a bit of lost motion on center. But once again it is not the steering box that is the cause of wandering but more likely suspension faults or mis alignments. Steve TC2911

[Stephen D Stierman]

An interesting observation Eric.In my simplistic mind, I simply looked at the specifications in my shop manual, noticed the difference in toe from the TA to the TC and thought, well might as well give 1/2" a  try since I had already increased the toe to something around 3/8" with some improvement.Perhaps someone else out there in TC land might want to do the same and report back?Steve TC2911 [b]From:[/b] "e.worpe@surrey.ac.uk" e.worpe@surrey.ac.uk> [b]To:[/b] morgan7709@sbcglobal.net; morelists@yahoo.com; mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [b]Sent:[/b] Wednesday, September 20, 2017 7:44 PM Subject: RE: [mg-tabc] alignment Hi Stephen, If only it were that simple, my previous e-mail referred to the "foot print" of the tyre being outside of the point where the king-pin axis meets the ground. One unfortunate effect of this is the tendency of the wheel to be swung backwards around the king-pin due to the wheel's rolling resistance with the ground. Normally this effect is balanced out by both wheels experiencing the same rolling resistance, so on smooth roads the car steers straight ahead. However, should one wheel experience a change in rolling resistance due to an undulation in the road surface, the different forces swinging the wheels backwards about the axis of the king-pins will result in a deflection of the front end. This could be the reason the TB & TC are twitchy, the TA with its side laced wheels does not suffer so much from this problem as the tyre's foot print almost straddles the extrapolated king pin's axis.   Quite why MG chose to change the wheel offset is open to conjecture , it could be that centre laced wheels enabled improved cooling of the brake drums; increasing the track width also improves road holding. Why the toe-in adjustment should have such an effect on stability is puzzling as are the differences in advised toe-in. The TA with its side laced wheels should need a reduced toe in, yet has a recommended 1/2" toe in compared with the 3/16" of the TC. I suspect that lost motion in the steering box exaggerates any inherent instability of the front end. It does seem from your observations that adjusting the toe in for improved stability is worth trying out. Regards, Eric. ________________________________________ From: Stephen D Stierman morgan7709@sbcglobal.net The peg located at the top of the sector shaft should be positioned over the high spot in the grooved worm in the straight ahead position if all things are adjusted correctly.  With the wheels off the ground this will be felt as a slight stiff spot as the steering wheel is turned left and right as the peg rides over the worm. This would lesson lost motion in the straight ahead position.  I am not sure that this was designed to preclude wandering or just to minimize lost motion, but all of these steering boxes from English cars of the period were designed in this way; TR, Healey, Morgan and others.  There is always a bit of lost motion on center.  But once again it is not the steering box that is the cause of wandering but more likely suspension faults or mis alignments. Steve TC2911

[eworpe]

Hi Stephen, Anyone's observations about the TC's steering are somewhat variable depending on mood, cross winds, road conditions and how much amber nectar has been consumed. One potential influence on steering is the pre-load of the springs in the track rod ends; the pitch of the thread is 20 TPI, so the suggested backing off by half a turn of the end plug would allow the spring to compress by 25 thou. under the influence of the "splaying out" forces on the wheels. With a total of 50 thou. for the two track ends multiplied by the ratio of the radius of the wheel rim divided by the length of the steering arm which is some 10"/4", a 2.5 fold amplification of the compressibility of the track rod springs results at the wheel's rim. This equates to 1/8", a significant portion of the toe-in adjustment. It's tempting to suggest that some of the variations in optimising the toe-in adjustment could be linked to the set up of the track-rod ends. Regards, Eric. ________________________________________ From: Stephen D Stierman [morgan7709@sbcglobal.net] An interesting observation Eric. In my simplistic mind, I simply looked at the specifications in my shop manual, noticed the difference in toe from the TA to the TC and thought, well might as well give 1/2" a try since I had already increased the toe to something around 3/8" with some improvement. Perhaps someone else out there in TC land might want to do the same and report back? ________________________________ From: "e.worpe@surrey.ac.uk" e.worpe@surrey.ac.uk> If only it were that simple, my previous e-mail referred to the "foot print" of the tyre being outside of the point where the king-pin axis meets the ground. One unfortunate effect of this is the tendency of the wheel to be swung backwards around the king-pin due to the wheel's rolling resistance with the ground. Normally this effect is balanced out by both wheels experiencing the same rolling resistance, so on smooth roads the car steers straight ahead. However, should one wheel experience a change in rolling resistance due to an undulation in the road surface, the different forces swinging the wheels backwards about the axis of the king-pins will result in a deflection of the front end. This could be the reason the TB & TC are twitchy, the TA with its side laced wheels does not suffer so much from this problem as the tyre's foot print almost straddles the extrapolated king pin's axis. Quite why MG chose to change the wheel offset is open to conjecture , it could be that centre laced wheels enabled improved cooling of the brake drums; increasing the track width also improves road holding. Why the toe-in adjustment should have such an effect on stability is puzzling as are the differences in advised toe-in. The TA with its side laced wheels should need a reduced toe in, yet has a recommended 1/2" toe in compared with the 3/16" of the TC. I suspect that lost motion in the steering box exaggerates any inherent instability of the front end. It does seem from your observations that adjusting the toe in for improved stability is worth trying out.

[Stephen D Stierman]

My expectation is that the vehicle be reasonably safe to drive, realizing that with its age, bias ply tires, and such, it will not approach a modern car with rack and pinion steering and some caution is a good thing.  I find it to be now quite similar to my Morgan so am reasonably happy with it.  By the way I have played with adjustment of the track rod ends over the years and now have them set fairly snugly as our roads here are generally pretty smooth.Steve TC2911 [b]From:[/b] "E.Worpe@surrey.ac.uk [mg-tabc]" mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> [b]To:[/b] morgan7709@sbcglobal.net; morelists@yahoo.com; mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [b]Sent:[/b] Thursday, September 21, 2017 4:42 AM [b]Subject:[/b] RE: [mg-tabc] alignment   Hi Stephen, Anyone's observations about the TC's steering are somewhat variable depending on mood, cross winds, road conditions and how much amber nectar has been consumed. One potential influence on steering is the pre-load of the springs in the track rod ends; the pitch of the thread is 20 TPI, so the suggested backing off by half a turn of the end plug would allow the spring to compress by 25 thou. under the influence of the "splaying out" forces on the wheels. With a total of 50 thou. for the two track ends multiplied by the ratio of the radius of the wheel rim divided by the length of the steering arm which is some 10"/4", a 2.5 fold amplification of the compressibility of the track rod springs results at the wheel's rim. This equates to 1/8", a significant portion of the toe-in adjustment. It's tempting to suggest that some of the variations in optimising the toe-in adjustment could be linked to the set up of the track-rod ends. Regards, Eric. ________________________________________ From: Stephen D Stierman [morgan7709@sbcglobal.net] An interesting observation Eric. In my simplistic mind, I simply looked at the specifications in my shop manual, noticed the difference in toe from the TA to the TC and thought, well might as well give 1/2" a try since I had already increased the toe to something around 3/8" with some improvement. Perhaps someone else out there in TC land might want to do the same and report back? ________________________________ From: "e.worpe@surrey.ac.uk" e.worpe@surrey.ac.uk> If only it were that simple, my previous e-mail referred to the "foot print" of the tyre being outside of the point where the king-pin axis meets the ground. One unfortunate effect of this is the tendency of the wheel to be swung backwards around the king-pin due to the wheel's rolling resistance with the ground. Normally this effect is balanced out by both wheels experiencing the same rolling resistance, so on smooth roads the car steers straight ahead. However, should one wheel experience a change in rolling resistance due to an undulation in the road surface, the different forces swinging the wheels backwards about the axis of the king-pins will result in a deflection of the front end. This could be the reason the TB & TC are twitchy, the TA with its side laced wheels does not suffer so much from this problem as the tyre's foot print almost straddles the extrapolated king pin's axis. Quite why MG chose to change the wheel offset is open to conjecture , it could be that centre laced wheels enabled improved cooling of the brake drums; increasing the track width also improves road holding. Why the toe-in adjustment should have such an effect on stability is puzzling as are the differences in advised toe-in. The TA with its side laced wheels should need a reduced toe in, yet has a recommended 1/2" toe in compared with the 3/16" of the TC. I suspect that lost motion in the steering box exaggerates any inherent instability of the front end. It does seem from your observations that adjusting the toe in for improved stability is worth trying out. #ygrps-yiv-323035440 #ygrps-yiv-323035440yiv4682436551 #ygrps-yiv-323035440yiv4682436551 -- #ygrps-yiv-323035440yiv4682436551ygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;} #ygrps-yiv-323035440 #ygrps-yiv-323035440yiv4682436551 #ygrps-yiv-323035440yiv4682436551ygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #ygrps-yiv-323035440 #ygrps-yiv-323035440yiv4682436551 #ygrps-yiv-323035440yiv4682436551ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-323035440yiv4682436551hd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-323035440 #ygrps-yiv-323035440yiv4682436551 #ygrps-yiv-323035440yiv4682436551ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-323035440yiv4682436551ads { margin-bottom:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-323035440 #ygrps-yiv-323035440yiv4682436551 #ygrps-yiv-323035440yiv4682436551ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-323035440yiv4682436551ad { padding:0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-323035440 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[Tweed]

 'our roads here are generally pretty smooth' .... Thank your lucky stars Steve ... here in Britain the roads are appalling!   To rub salt in the wound, the vast sums we have paid into the EU have probably gone to repairing and building new ones in Europe!  TweedTC 0632Cambridge UK   [b]From:[/b] "Stephen D Stierman morgan7709@sbcglobal.net [mg-tabc]" mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> [b]To:[/b] "E.Worpe@surrey.ac.uk" E.Worpe@surrey.ac.uk>; "morelists@yahoo.com" morelists@yahoo.com>; "mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com" mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com> [b]Sent:[/b] Thursday, 21 September 2017, 11:37 [b]Subject:[/b] Re: [mg-tabc] alignment   My expectation is that the vehicle be reasonably safe to drive, realizing that with its age, bias ply tires, and such, it will not approach a modern car with rack and pinion steering and some caution is a good thing.  I find it to be now quite similar to my Morgan so am reasonably happy with it.  By the way I have played with adjustment of the track rod ends over the years and now have them set fairly snugly as our roads here are generally pretty smooth.Steve TC2911 From: "E.Worpe@surrey.ac.uk [mg-tabc]" mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> [b]To:[/b] morgan7709@sbcglobal.net; morelists@yahoo.com; mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [b]Sent:[/b] Thursday, September 21, 2017 4:42 AM [b]Subject:[/b] RE: [mg-tabc] alignment   Hi Stephen, Anyone's observations about the TC's steering are somewhat variable depending on mood, cross winds, road conditions and how much amber nectar has been consumed. One potential influence on steering is the pre-load of the springs in the track rod ends; the pitch of the thread is 20 TPI, so the suggested backing off by half a turn of the end plug would allow the spring to compress by 25 thou. under the influence of the "splaying out" forces on the wheels. With a total of 50 thou. for the two track ends multiplied by the ratio of the radius of the wheel rim divided by the length of the steering arm which is some 10"/4", a 2.5 fold amplification of the compressibility of the track rod springs results at the wheel's rim. This equates to 1/8", a significant portion of the toe-in adjustment. It's tempting to suggest that some of the variations in optimising the toe-in adjustment could be linked to the set up of the track-rod ends. Regards, Eric. ________________________________________ From: Stephen D Stierman [morgan7709@sbcglobal.net] An interesting observation Eric. In my simplistic mind, I simply looked at the specifications in my shop manual, noticed the difference in toe from the TA to the TC and thought, well might as well give 1/2" a try since I had already increased the toe to something around 3/8" with some improvement. Perhaps someone else out there in TC land might want to do the same and report back? ________________________________ From: "e.worpe@surrey.ac.uk" e.worpe@surrey.ac.uk> If only it were that simple, my previous e-mail referred to the "foot print" of the tyre being outside of the point where the king-pin axis meets the ground. One unfortunate effect of this is the tendency of the wheel to be swung backwards around the king-pin due to the wheel's rolling resistance with the ground. Normally this effect is balanced out by both wheels experiencing the same rolling resistance, so on smooth roads the car steers straight ahead. However, should one wheel experience a change in rolling resistance due to an undulation in the road surface, the different forces swinging the wheels backwards about the axis of the king-pins will result in a deflection of the front end. This could be the reason the TB & TC are twitchy, the TA with its side laced wheels does not suffer so much from this problem as the tyre's foot print almost straddles the extrapolated king pin's axis. Quite why MG chose to change the wheel offset is open to conjecture , it could be that centre laced wheels enabled improved cooling of the brake drums; increasing the track width also improves road holding. Why the toe-in adjustment should have such an effect on stability is puzzling as are the differences in advised toe-in. The TA with its side laced wheels should need a reduced toe in, yet has a recommended 1/2" toe in compared with the 3/16" of the TC. I suspect that lost motion in the steering box exaggerates any inherent instability of the front end. It does seem from your observations that adjusting the toe in for improved stability is worth trying out. #ygrps-yiv-396127238 #ygrps-yiv-396127238yiv2087510748 #ygrps-yiv-396127238yiv2087510748 -- #ygrps-yiv-396127238yiv2087510748ygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;} #ygrps-yiv-396127238 #ygrps-yiv-396127238yiv2087510748 #ygrps-yiv-396127238yiv2087510748ygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #ygrps-yiv-396127238 #ygrps-yiv-396127238yiv2087510748 #ygrps-yiv-396127238yiv2087510748ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-396127238yiv2087510748hd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-396127238 #ygrps-yiv-396127238yiv2087510748 #ygrps-yiv-396127238yiv2087510748ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-396127238yiv2087510748ads { margin-bottom:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-396127238 #ygrps-yiv-396127238yiv2087510748 #ygrps-yiv-396127238yiv2087510748ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-396127238yiv2087510748ad { padding:0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-396127238 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[Jean Vignau]

Tweed, I can assure you your money was not spent on French roads (alas!!!)

Jean

[Rothgene]

Now that the alignment problem is solved ? lets discuss tire pressure, as this may have something to do with wander and tire wear. I say 26 to 28 psi front and 32 psi rear, what say you out there? Gene Roth   [b]From:[/b] mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of 'Jean Vignau' jeanvignau@orange.fr [mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> [b]Sent:[/b] Thursday, September 21, 2017 3:52 PM [b]To:[/b] mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [b]Subject:[/b] Re: [mg-tabc] alignment     Tweed, I can assure you your money was not spent on French roads (alas!!!) Jean

[JOHN SWANLAND]

My dealer (Vintage Tyres in Melbourne, Australia) is saying 35psi all round for Excelsiors on the TC. Since I buy my tyres from him I follow this recommendation cheers John Swanland TC7557 On 22/09/2017 5:33 AM, Rothgene rothgene@msn.com [mg-tabc] wrote:

Now that the alignment problem is solved ? lets discuss tire pressure, as this may have something to do with wander and tire wear. I say 26 to 28 psi front and 32 psi rear, what say you out there? Gene Roth [b]From:[/b] mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com on behalf of 'Jean Vignau' jeanvignau@orange.fr [mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com [b]Sent:[/b] Thursday, September 21, 2017 3:52 PM [b]To:[/b] mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [b]Subject:[/b] Re: [mg-tabc] alignment Tweed, I can assure you your money was not spent on French roads (alas!!!) Jean

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