Hydrogen

[Norman Verona]

My understanding is that to convert Hydrogen into a usable state takes more electricity than a petrol car would burn for the same mileage, if you see what I mean.

 

 

[b][i]Norman Verona[/i][/b]

11 Cherry Close, Royston, South Yorkshire S71 4LZ

Phone: 0044 (0)1226 728811

Mob: 0044 (0)741 9905 741

[b][i]Web: www.frenchblat.com[/i][/b]

 

[b]From:[/b] mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com] [b]On Behalf Of [/b]Duncan morelists@yahoo.com [mg-tabc] [b]Sent:[/b] 30 August 2017 21:05 [b]To:[/b] mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com; paulhuck@bellsouth.net [b]Subject:[/b] Re: [mg-tabc] Hydrogen

 

 

You cannot even buy a proper diesel/electric hybrid car in the US yet. Talk of hydrogen powered car's in any significant proportion just sounds like crazy talk. Duncan- CA ____________________

On Wed, 8/30/17, 'paulhuck@bellsouth.net' paulhuck@bellsouth.net [mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> wrote: Subject: Re: [mg-tabc] Hydrogen To: "'Norman Verona' norman@frenchblat.com [mg-tabc]" mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com>, "'Graham Knight'" graham.knight5@gmail.com>, mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, August 30, 2017, 5:13 AM   But the Tesla is electric. Much of our electricity come from fossil fueled plants. California said 20 years ago that 1 in 3 cars sold in the state by 2012 had to be electric. See how that turned out. I see more hybrid cars in the future. Orvitccould bed that, as Nancy Pelosi said, we will usecnsturslbgss instead of fossil fuels. ( She IS from Califirnia). Lol Sent from my LG K10, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone ------ Original message------From: 'Norman Verona' norman@frenchblat.com [mg-tabc]Date: Wed, Aug 30, 2017 4:27 AMTo: 'Graham Knight';mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com;Cc: Subject:RE: [mg-tabc] Hydrogen   It s the manufacture of fossil fuelled cars that is to be phased out by 203 not their use. I guess it will take another 20 years to get rid of 90% of the fossil fuelled cars and even then there will be a lot still running. They may get banned from city centres and, yes, fuel will not be as available as it is today but it will be there for those who want it.  Seeing as we re talking about 2050 and I ll be 104 I m not losing any sleep over it.  My lad has a Tesla so he s just chuckling to himself.    Norman Verona11 Cherry Close, Royston, South Yorkshire S71 4LZPhone: 0044 (0)1226 728811Mob: 0044 (0)741 9905 741Web: www.frenchblat.com  From: mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Graham Knight graham.knight5@gmail.com [mg-tabc] Sent: 30 August 2017 09:15 To: mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com Subject: [mg-tabc] Hydrogen    Dear All, Warning! Speculative discussion you may prefer to ignore. The word in Europe is that petrol and diesel cars will be phased out by 2030. Although there may well be exemptions for "historic" vehicles, I imagine petrol and diesel fuels will become difficult and expensive to buy. I read in a recent copy of "New Scientist" (UK popular science magazine) of research at a US Army Research Lab in Maryland that had discovered an aluminium compound that catalysed the break-down of water into hydrogen and oxygen. If this scales up and is economic it could provide a viable and portable way of generating hydrogen fuel. So, what would it need to convert an XPAG to run on hydrogen? Would it be feasible to use a hydrogen/oxygen mix to avoid generating toxic Nitrogen compounds? It can't be that hard. I recall that some London buses were converted to run on coal gas during WW2! Graham

[Duncan]

Yes Norman. My point is not that the hydrogen powered ships and cars are crazy, just that the thought of it happening any time soon seems crazy Duncan-. --------------------------------------------

On Wed, 8/30/17, 'Norman Verona' norman@frenchblat.com [mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> wrote: Subject: RE: [mg-tabc] Hydrogen To: "'Duncan'" morelists@yahoo.com>, mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com, paulhuck@bellsouth.net Date: Wednesday, August 30, 2017, 1:34 PM My understanding is that to convert Hydrogen into a usable state takes more electricity than a petrol car would burn for the same mileage, if you see what I mean. Norman Verona11 Cherry Close, Royston, South Yorkshire S71 4LZPhone: 0044 (0)1226 728811Mob: 0044 (0)741 9905 741Web: www.frenchblat.com From: mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Duncan morelists@yahoo.com [mg-tabc] Sent: 30 August 2017 21:05 To: mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com; paulhuck@bellsouth.net Subject: Re: [mg-tabc] Hydrogen You cannot even buy a proper diesel/electric hybrid car in the US yet. Talk of hydrogen powered car's in any significant proportion just sounds like crazy talk. Duncan- CA ____________________ On Wed, 8/30/17, 'paulhuck@bellsouth.net' paulhuck@bellsouth.net [mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> wrote: Subject: Re: [mg-tabc] Hydrogen To: "'Norman Verona' norman@frenchblat.com [mg-tabc]" mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com>, "'Graham Knight'" graham.knight5@gmail.com>, mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, August 30, 2017, 5:13 AM But the Tesla is electric. Much of our electricity come from fossil fueled plants. California said 20 years ago that 1 in 3 cars sold in the state by 2012 had to be electric. See how that turned out. I see more hybrid cars in the future. Orvitccould bed that, as Nancy Pelosi said, we will usecnsturslbgss instead of fossil fuels. ( She IS from Califirnia). Lol Sent from my LG K10, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone ------ Original message------From: 'Norman Verona' norman@frenchblat.com [mg-tabc]Date: Wed, Aug 30, 2017 4:27 AMTo: 'Graham Knight';mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com;Cc: Subject:RE: [mg-tabc] Hydrogen It s the manufacture of fossil fuelled cars that is to be phased out by 203 not their use. I guess it will take another 20 years to get rid of 90% of the fossil fuelled cars and even then there will be a lot still running. They may get banned from city centres and, yes, fuel will not be as available as it is today but it will be there for those who want it. Seeing as we re talking about 2050 and I ll be 104 I m not losing any sleep over it. My lad has a Tesla so he s just chuckling to himself. Norman Verona11 Cherry Close, Royston, South Yorkshire S71 4LZPhone: 0044 (0)1226 728811Mob: 0044 (0)741 9905 741Web: www.frenchblat.com From: mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Graham Knight graham.knight5@gmail.com [mg-tabc] Sent: 30 August 2017 09:15 To: mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com Subject: [mg-tabc] Hydrogen Dear All, Warning! Speculative discussion you may prefer to ignore. The word in Europe is that petrol and diesel cars will be phased out by 2030. Although there may well be exemptions for "historic" vehicles, I imagine petrol and diesel fuels will become difficult and expensive to buy. I read in a recent copy of "New Scientist" (UK popular science magazine) of research at a US Army Research Lab in Maryland that had discovered an aluminium compound that catalysed the break-down of water into hydrogen and oxygen. If this scales up and is economic it could provide a viable and portable way of generating hydrogen fuel. So, what would it need to convert an XPAG to run on hydrogen? Would it be feasible to use a hydrogen/oxygen mix to avoid generating toxic Nitrogen compounds? It can't be that hard. I recall that some London buses were converted to run on coal gas during WW2! Graham

[Mark & Sheila Masters]

At one time it was also thought that the world would only require three computers. How wrong can we be.MarkNZ

On 31Aug, 2017, at 08:45, Duncan morelists@yahoo.com [mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> wrote: Yes Norman. My point is not that the hydrogen powered ships and cars are crazy, just that the thought of it happening any time soon seems crazy Duncan-.   -------------------------------------------- On Wed, 8/30/17, 'Norman Verona' norman@frenchblat.com [mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> wrote: Subject: RE: [mg-tabc] Hydrogen To: "'Duncan'" morelists@yahoo.com>, mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com, paulhuck@bellsouth.net Date: Wednesday, August 30, 2017, 1:34 PM   My understanding is that to convert Hydrogen into a usable state takes more electricity than a petrol car would burn for the same mileage, if you see what I mean.    Norman Verona11 Cherry Close, Royston, South Yorkshire S71 4LZPhone: 0044 (0)1226 728811Mob: 0044 (0)741 9905 741Web: www.frenchblat.com  From: mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Duncan morelists@yahoo.com [mg-tabc] Sent: 30 August 2017 21:05 To: mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com; paulhuck@bellsouth.net Subject: Re: [mg-tabc] Hydrogen    You cannot even buy a proper diesel/electric hybrid car in the US yet. Talk of hydrogen powered car's in any significant proportion just sounds like crazy talk. Duncan- CA ____________________ On Wed, 8/30/17, 'paulhuck@bellsouth.net' paulhuck@bellsouth.net [mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> wrote: Subject: Re: [mg-tabc] Hydrogen To: "'Norman Verona' norman@frenchblat.com [mg-tabc]" mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com>, "'Graham Knight'" graham.knight5@gmail.com>, mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, August 30, 2017, 5:13 AM   But the Tesla is electric. Much of our electricity come from fossil fueled plants. California said 20 years ago that 1 in 3 cars sold in the state by 2012 had to be electric. See how that turned out. I see more hybrid cars in the future. Orvitccould bed that, as Nancy Pelosi said, we will usecnsturslbgss instead of fossil fuels. ( She IS from Califirnia). Lol Sent from my LG K10, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone ------ Original message------From: 'Norman Verona' norman@frenchblat.com [mg-tabc]Date: Wed, Aug 30, 2017 4:27 AMTo: 'Graham Knight';mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com;Cc: Subject:RE: [mg-tabc] Hydrogen   It s the manufacture of fossil fuelled cars that is to be phased out by 203 not their use. I guess it will take another 20 years to get rid of 90% of the fossil fuelled cars and even then there will be a lot still running. They may get banned from city centres and, yes, fuel will not be as available as it is today but it will be there for those who want it.  Seeing as we re talking about 2050 and I ll be 104 I m not losing any sleep over it.  My lad has a Tesla so he s just chuckling to himself.    Norman Verona11 Cherry Close, Royston, South Yorkshire S71 4LZPhone: 0044 (0)1226 728811Mob: 0044 (0)741 9905 741Web: www.frenchblat.com  From: mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Graham Knight graham.knight5@gmail.com [mg-tabc] Sent: 30 August 2017 09:15 To: mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com Subject: [mg-tabc] Hydrogen    Dear All, Warning! Speculative discussion you may prefer to ignore. The word in Europe is that petrol and diesel cars will be phased out by 2030. Although there may well be exemptions for "historic" vehicles, I imagine petrol and diesel fuels will become difficult and expensive to buy. I read in a recent copy of "New Scientist" (UK popular science magazine) of research at a US Army Research Lab in Maryland that had discovered an aluminium compound that catalysed the break-down of water into hydrogen and oxygen. If this scales up and is economic it could provide a viable and portable way of generating hydrogen fuel. So, what would it need to convert an XPAG to run on hydrogen? Would it be feasible to use a hydrogen/oxygen mix to avoid generating toxic Nitrogen compounds? It can't be that hard. I recall that some London buses were converted to run on coal gas during WW2! Graham

[Graham Knight]

Hi All, I agree that there are problems with storing hydrogen safely - but surely these are no worse than storing other fuel gases which we seem to do quite successfully? However, the point about the US Army research is that is offers a way of generating hydrogen on demand from two ingredients that individually are quite safe. There was not enough information in the article I read, nor on the US Army website, to understand the energy efficiency of the process. Presumably the energy does not come from the water so I guess it comes from the aluminium which, I think, is notoriously costly to smelt in energy terms. Graham On 30/08/17 21:34, 'Norman Verona' norman@frenchblat.com [mg-tabc] wrote:

My understanding is that to convert Hydrogen into a usable state takes more electricity than a petrol car would burn for the same mileage, if you see what I mean.

[b][i]Norman Verona[/i][/b]

11 Cherry Close, Royston, South Yorkshire S71 4LZ

Phone: 0044 (0)1226 728811

Mob: 0044 (0)741 9905 741

[b][i]Web: www.frenchblat.com[/i][/b]

[b]From:[/b] mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com] [b]On Behalf Of [/b]Duncan morelists@yahoo.com [mg-tabc] [b]Sent:[/b] 30 August 2017 21:05 [b]To:[/b] mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com; paulhuck@bellsouth.net [b]Subject:[/b] Re: [mg-tabc] Hydrogen

You cannot even buy a proper diesel/electric hybrid car in the US yet. Talk of hydrogen powered car's in any significant proportion just sounds like crazy talk. Duncan- CA ____________________ On Wed, 8/30/17, 'paulhuck@bellsouth.net' paulhuck@bellsouth.net [mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> wrote: Subject: Re: [mg-tabc] Hydrogen To: "'Norman Verona' norman@frenchblat.com [mg-tabc]" mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com>, "'Graham Knight'" graham.knight5@gmail.com>, mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, August 30, 2017, 5:13 AM But the Tesla is electric. Much of our electricity come from fossil fueled plants. California said 20 years ago that 1 in 3 cars sold in the state by 2012 had to be electric. See how that turned out. I see more hybrid cars in the future. Orvitccould bed that, as Nancy Pelosi said, we will usecnsturslbgss instead of fossil fuels. ( She IS from Califirnia). Lol Sent from my LG K10, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone ------ Original message------From: 'Norman Verona' norman@frenchblat.com [mg-tabc]Date: Wed, Aug 30, 2017 4:27 AMTo: 'Graham Knight';mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com;Cc: Subject:RE: [mg-tabc] Hydrogen It s the manufacture of fossil fuelled cars that is to be phased out by 203 not their use. I guess it will take another 20 years to get rid of 90% of the fossil fuelled cars and even then there will be a lot still running. They may get banned from city centres and, yes, fuel will not be as available as it is today but it will be there for those who want it. Seeing as we re talking about 2050 and I ll be 104 I m not losing any sleep over it. My lad has a Tesla so he s just chuckling to himself. Norman Verona11 Cherry Close, Royston, South Yorkshire S71 4LZPhone: 0044 (0)1226 728811Mob: 0044 (0)741 9905 741Web: www.frenchblat.com From: mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Graham Knight graham.knight5@gmail.com [mg-tabc] Sent: 30 August 2017 09:15 To: mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com Subject: [mg-tabc] Hydrogen Dear All, Warning! Speculative discussion you may prefer to ignore. The word in Europe is that petrol and diesel cars will be phased out by 2030. Although there may well be exemptions for "historic" vehicles, I imagine petrol and diesel fuels will become difficult and expensive to buy. I read in a recent copy of "New Scientist" (UK popular science magazine) of research at a US Army Research Lab in Maryland that had discovered an aluminium compound that catalysed the break-down of water into hydrogen and oxygen. If this scales up and is economic it could provide a viable and portable way of generating hydrogen fuel. So, what would it need to convert an XPAG to run on hydrogen? Would it be feasible to use a hydrogen/oxygen mix to avoid generating toxic Nitrogen compounds? It can't be that hard. I recall that some London buses were converted to run on coal gas during WW2! Graham

[Roger Furneaux]

hi Graham - aluminium does indeed use a lot of energy to produce, which is why it is often done in areas with a LOT of electricity, such as hydro. But to re-melt it requires much less than smelting, and considering how many Al cans there are in landfill (not to mention many other rare metals) it is now economically viable to mine them to extract the metals. But surely, if Al is indeed a catalyst, it would not be consumed in the process, but facilitates the reaction to use a much lower energy input than simple electrolysis. Some time ago (probably in Scientific American) I read about plans to generate hydrogen by electrolysis using solar energy: these would be smallish local plants, and obviously only parts of the USA would be suitable (along with any other hot areas of the world which are presently oil-poor). Hydrogen storage and distribution is a well established practice in industry, and is already beginning to be rolled out, in Germany for instance, with only a few here in the UK, notably near the Honda factory in Swindon. As an aside, documentary film of the Hindenburg shows the fire spreading very quickly over the whole outside skin, and it was shown that the silver paint used got its colour from fine Al particles (that metal again!) and was exceedingly flammable. Of course the Hydrogen burned once the skin was breached. oc[b]T[/b]agonally Roger (on stands R637/654 at this weekends Beaulieu autojumble)

On Thu, Aug 31, 2017 at 7:58 AM, Graham Knight graham.knight5@gmail.com [mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> wrote: [u][/u] Hi All, I agree that there are problems with storing hydrogen safely - but surely these are no worse than storing other fuel gases which we seem to do quite successfully? However, the point about the US Army research is that is offers a way of generating hydrogen on demand from two ingredients that individually are quite safe. There was not enough information in the article I read, nor on the US Army website, to understand the energy efficiency of the process. Presumably the energy does not come from the water so I guess it comes from the aluminium which, I think, is notoriously costly to smelt in energy terms. Graham On 30/08/17 21:34, 'Norman Verona' norman@frenchblat.com [mg-tabc] wrote: My understanding is that to convert Hydrogen into a usable state takes more electricity than a petrol car would burn for the same mileage, if you see what I mean.[u][/u][u][/u]

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[b][i]Norman Verona[u][/u][u][/u][/i][/b]

11 Cherry Close, Royston, South Yorkshire S71 4LZ[u][/u][u][/u]

Phone: 0044 (0)1226 728811[u][/u][u][/u]

Mob: 0044 (0)741 9905 741[u][/u][u][/u]

[b][i]Web: www.frenchblat.com[u][/u][u][/u][/i][/b]

[u][/u] [u][/u]

[b]From:[/b] mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com] [b]On Behalf Of [/b]Duncan morelists@yahoo.com [mg-tabc] [b]Sent:[/b] 30 August 2017 21:05 [b]To:[/b] mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com; paulhuck@bellsouth.net [b]Subject:[/b] Re: [mg-tabc] Hydrogen[u][/u][u][/u]

[u][/u] [u][/u]

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You cannot even buy a proper diesel/electric hybrid car in the US yet. Talk of hydrogen powered car's in any significant proportion just sounds like crazy talk. Duncan- CA ____________________ On Wed, 8/30/17, 'paulhuck@bellsouth.net' paulhuck@bellsouth.net [mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> wrote: Subject: Re: [mg-tabc] Hydrogen To: "'Norman Verona' norman@frenchblat.com [mg-tabc]" mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com>, "'Graham Knight'" graham.knight5@gmail.com>, mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, August 30, 2017, 5:13 AM But the Tesla is electric. Much of our electricity come from fossil fueled plants. California said 20 years ago that 1 in 3 cars sold in the state by 2012 had to be electric. See how that turned out. I see more hybrid cars in the future. Orvitccould bed that, as Nancy Pelosi said, we will usecnsturslbgss instead of fossil fuels. ( She IS from Califirnia). Lol Sent from my LG K10, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone ------ Original message------From: 'Norman Verona' norman@frenchblat.com [mg-tabc]Date: Wed, Aug 30, 2017 4:27 AMTo: 'Graham Knight%27%3Bmg-tabc@yahoogroups.com;Cc: Subject:RE: [mg-tabc] Hydrogen It s the manufacture of fossil fuelled cars that is to be phased out by 203 not their use. I guess it will take another 20 years to get rid of 90% of the fossil fuelled cars and even then there will be a lot still running. They may get banned from city centres and, yes, fuel will not be as available as it is today but it will be there for those who want it. Seeing as we re talking about 2050 and I ll be 104 I m not losing any sleep over it. My lad has a Tesla so he s just chuckling to himself. Norman Verona11 Cherry Close, Royston, South Yorkshire S71 4LZPhone: 0044 (0)1226 728811Mob: 0044 (0)741 9905 741Web: www.frenchblat.com From: mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Graham Knight graham.knight5@gmail.com [mg-tabc] Sent: 30 August 2017 09:15 To: mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com Subject: [mg-tabc] Hydrogen Dear All, Warning! Speculative discussion you may prefer to ignore. The word in Europe is that petrol and diesel cars will be phased out by 2030. Although there may well be exemptions for "historic" vehicles, I imagine petrol and diesel fuels will become difficult and expensive to buy. I read in a recent copy of "New Scientist" (UK popular science magazine) of research at a US Army Research Lab in Maryland that had discovered an aluminium compound that catalysed the break-down of water into hydrogen and oxygen. If this scales up and is economic it could provide a viable and portable way of generating hydrogen fuel. So, what would it need to convert an XPAG to run on hydrogen? Would it be feasible to use a hydrogen/oxygen mix to avoid generating toxic Nitrogen compounds? It can't be that hard. I recall that some London buses were converted to run on coal gas during WW2! Graham [u][/u][u][/u]

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