Drop arms. ( Sorry if this appears more than once)

Norman Verona
Posts: 107
Joined: Sun May 17, 2015 4:21 am

Re: Drop arms. ( Sorry if this appears more than once)

Post by Norman Verona » Mon Aug 14, 2017 12:54 pm

I agree wholeheartedly with Steve. I drive my car, shall we say, prudently. It s not a race car and I have the Caterham if I want to drive (very) fast. I think I got the TC up to 60 mph once.

 

 

[b][i]Norman Verona[/i][/b]

11 Cherry Close, Royston, South Yorkshire S71 4LZ

Phone: 0044 (0)1226 728811

Mob: 0044 (0)741 9905 741

[b][i]Web: www.frenchblat.com[/i][/b]

 

[b]From:[/b] mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com] [b]On Behalf Of [/b]Stephen D Stierman morgan7709@sbcglobal.net [mg-tabc] [b]Sent:[/b] 14 August 2017 17:58 [b]To:[/b] usaj24@earthlink.net; Tweed lizandtweed@yahoo.co.uk> [b]Cc:[/b] mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [b]Subject:[/b] Re: [mg-tabc] Drop arms. ( Sorry if this appears more than once)

 

 

Safety?! Give me a break here.  It is a 70 year old car made of wood with a steel tube pointed at the drivers chest and a fuel tank as a rear bumper.  Lighting barely visible after dark, a chassis known to develop stress cracks, rear axles known to break, front spindles that crack and a crank shaft that sometimes breaks across a counter weight.  Made of materials scrounged after a war built with technology from well before.

I am sorry I just cannot worry too much about the quality and traceability in manufacturing from raw material to end product.  We are lucky we can still get parts and keep these old crocks on the road for awhile longer.  By simply driving these  vehicles you are assuming a great deal of risk and if this is a big problem, maybe time to choose a different hobby.

 

Steve TC2911, driving a car as old as I am.

[b]From:[/b] "'Usaj24@earthlink.net' usaj24@earthlink.net [mg-tabc]" mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> [b]To:[/b] Tweed lizandtweed@yahoo.co.uk> [b]Cc:[/b] mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [b]Sent:[/b] Monday, August 14, 2017 9:27 AM [b]Subject:[/b] Re: [mg-tabc] Drop arms. ( Sorry if this appears more than once)

 

 

Tweed,

No worries, there can never be enough discussion about how or why things break, and preventive measures.  

Personally I tend to worry more about fitting aftermarket critical parts with unknown QC issues. However this line of thinking should be more relevant today when NOS OEM  critical parts are becoming unobtanium, and who knows where today's parts are sourced and what level of QC they went through from A to Z.

Those touting VALUE of items like OEM VW steering components  should be be promoting advantages they offer in the way of safety in the way of high levels of OEM QC (Quality  Control) and traceability in mfg. process from raw material to end product.

Too many vintage critical parts are sourced from suppliers in third world countries based on cost, not degree of quality testing provided throughout mfg. supply chain.

 

Bill

TC 4926

 

Sent from my iPad

On Aug 13, 2017, at 9:24 PM, Tweed lizandtweed@yahoo.co.uk [mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

I hope this does not kick off another debate on the merits or otherwise of the VW box over the BC, but after reading a very interesting article by a Mike James in John James' 'Totally T type' on aftermarket drop arms , I'm curious.     

 

I'm in the process of replacing the busted VW steering box in 0632 and the drop or Pitman arm supplied with the 

replacement is totally different to the one on the old unit. Both units are made by TWR, but the old drop arm is a VW original. 

  

Not only is it shorter, but it does not have the same amount of 'offset'.  Also, the tapered hole to accept the rod end is  the other way up ... on the 'old' one, the rod end is mounted on the top and secured from below. 

 

Pro! bably the biggest argument against changing from a BC box is the increased number of turns lock to lock, so having a shorter arm can only exasperate that.   

While the use of a longer arm won't reduce the number of turns, it would make for less movement of the wheel to achieve the same amount of lock at the hub  .... so in effect, making for a slightly 'quicker' box.  

 

Or am I talking out of the top of my head? 

 

Tweed. 

 

  

 

 

 

 


Chip Hellie
Posts: 69
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2002 7:41 pm

Re: Drop arms. ( Sorry if this appears more than once)

Post by Chip Hellie » Mon Aug 14, 2017 1:12 pm

Norman, so you have a Caterham?  I don't think any of us knew that...Chip   Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android
On Mon, Aug 14, 2017 at 12:54 PM, 'Norman Verona' norman@frenchblat.com [mg-tabc]mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:   I agree wholeheartedly with Steve. I drive my car, shall we say, prudently. It s not a race car and I have the Caterham if I want to drive (very) fast. I think I got the TC up to 60 mph once.

 

 

[b][i]Norman Verona[/i][/b]

11 Cherry Close, Royston, South Yorkshire S71 4LZ

Phone: 0044 (0)1226 728811

Mob: 0044 (0)741 9905 741

[b][i]Web: www.frenchblat.com[/i][/b]

 

[b]From:[/b] mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com] [b]On Behalf Of [/b]Stephen D Stierman morgan7709@sbcglobal.net [mg-tabc] [b]Sent:[/b] 14 August 2017 17:58 [b]To:[/b] usaj24@earthlink.net; Tweed lizandtweed@yahoo.co.uk> [b]Cc:[/b] mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [b]Subject:[/b] Re: [mg-tabc] Drop arms. ( Sorry if this appears more than once)

 

 

Safety?! Give me a break here.  It is a 70 year old car made of wood with a steel tube pointed at the drivers chest and a fuel tank as a rear bumper.  Lighting barely visible after dark, a chassis known to develop stress cracks, rear axles known to break, front spindles that crack and a crank shaft that sometimes breaks across a counter weight.  Made of materials scrounged after a war built with technology from well before.

I am sorry I just cannot worry too much about the quality and traceability in manufacturing from raw material to end product.  We are lucky we can still get parts and keep these old crocks on the road for awhile longer.  By simply driving these  vehicles you are assuming a great deal of risk and if this is a big problem, maybe time to choose a different hobby.

 

Steve TC2911, driving a car as old as I am.

[b]From:[/b] "'Usaj24@earthlink.net' usaj24@earthlink.net [mg-tabc]" mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> [b]To:[/b] Tweed lizandtweed@yahoo.co.uk> [b]Cc:[/b] mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [b]Sent:[/b] Monday, August 14, 2017 9:27 AM [b]Subject:[/b] Re: [mg-tabc] Drop arms. ( Sorry if this appears more than once)

 

 

Tweed,

No worries, there can never be enough discussion about how or why things break, and preventive measures.  

Personally I tend to worry more about fitting aftermarket critical parts with unknown QC issues. However this line of thinking should be more relevant today when NOS OEM  critical parts are becoming unobtanium, and who knows where today's parts are sourced and what level of QC they went through from A to Z.

Those touting VALUE of items like OEM VW steering components  should be be promoting advantages they offer in the way of safety in the way of high levels of OEM QC (Quality  Control) and traceability in mfg. process from raw material to end product.

Too many vintage critical parts are sourced from suppliers in third world countries based on cost, not degree of quality testing provided throughout mfg. supply chain.

 

Bill

TC 4926

 

Sent from my iPad

On Aug 13, 2017, at 9:24 PM, Tweed lizandtweed@yahoo.co.uk [mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

I hope this does not kick off another debate on the merits or otherwise of the VW box over the BC, but after reading a very interesting article by a Mike James in John James' 'Totally T type' on aftermarket drop arms , I'm curious.     

 

I'm in the process of replacing the busted VW steering box in 0632 and the drop or Pitman arm supplied with the 

replacement is totally different to the one on the old unit. Both units are made by TWR, but the old drop arm is a VW original. 

  

Not only is it shorter, but it does not have the same amount of 'offset'.  Also, the tapered hole to accept the rod end is  the other way up ... on the 'old' one, the rod end is mounted on the top and secured from below. 

 

Pro! bably the biggest argument against changing from a BC box is the increased number of turns lock to lock, so having a shorter arm can only exasperate that.   

While the use of a longer arm won't reduce the number of turns, it would make for less movement of the wheel to achieve the same amount of lock at the hub  .... so in effect, making for a slightly 'quicker' box.  

 

Or am I talking out of the top of my head? 

 

Tweed. 

 

  

 

 

 

 

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Norman Verona
Posts: 107
Joined: Sun May 17, 2015 4:21 am

Re: Drop arms. ( Sorry if this appears more than once)

Post by Norman Verona » Mon Aug 14, 2017 2:48 pm

Chip,

 

Have had it since 1992 . http://www.lotus7news.co.uk/101.html

 

 

 

[b][i]Norman Verona[/i][/b]

11 Cherry Close, Royston, South Yorkshire S71 4LZ

Phone: 0044 (0)1226 728811

Mob: 0044 (0)741 9905 741

[b][i]Web: www.frenchblat.com[/i][/b]

 

[b]From:[/b] Chip Hellie [mailto:chiphelli@yahoo.com] [b]Sent:[/b] 14 August 2017 21:13 [b]To:[/b] Norman Verona norman@frenchblat.com>; 'Norman Verona' norman@frenchblat.com [mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com>; 'Stephen D Stierman' morgan7709@sbcglobal.net>; usaj24@earthlink.net; 'Tweed' lizandtweed@yahoo.co.uk> [b]Cc:[/b] mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [b]Subject:[/b] RE: [mg-tabc] Drop arms. ( Sorry if this appears more than once)

 

Norman, so you have a Caterham?  I don't think any of us knew that...

Chip  

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android

 

On Mon, Aug 14, 2017 at 12:54 PM, 'Norman Verona' norman@frenchblat.com [mg-tabc]

mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

I agree wholeheartedly with Steve. I drive my car, shall we say, prudently. It s not a race car and I have the Caterham if I want to drive (very) fast. I think I got the TC up to 60 mph once.

 

 

[b][i]Norman Verona[/i][/b]

11 Cherry Close, Royston, South Yorkshire S71 4LZ

Phone: 0044 (0)1226 728811

Mob: 0044 (0)741 9905 741

[b][i]Web: www.frenchblat.com[/i][/b]

 

[b]From:[/b] mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com] [b]On Behalf Of [/b]Stephen D Stierman morgan7709@sbcglobal.net [mg-tabc] [b]Sent:[/b] 14 August 2017 17:58 [b]To:[/b] usaj24@earthlink.net; Tweed lizandtweed@yahoo.co.uk> [b]Cc:[/b] mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [b]Subject:[/b] Re: [mg-tabc] Drop arms. ( Sorry if this appears more than once)

 

 

Safety?! Give me a break here.  It is a 70 year old car made of wood with a steel tube pointed at the drivers chest and a fuel tank as a rear bumper.  Lighting barely visible after dark, a chassis known to develop stress cracks, rear axles known to break, front spindles that crack and a crank shaft that sometimes breaks across a counter weight.  Made of materials scrounged after a war built with technology from well before.

I am sorry I just cannot worry too much about the quality and traceability in manufacturing from raw material to end product.  We are lucky we can still get parts and keep these old crocks on the road for awhile longer.  By simply driving these  vehicles you are assuming a great deal of risk and if this is a big problem, maybe time to choose a different hobby.

 

Steve TC2911, driving a car as old as I am.

[b]From:[/b] "'Usaj24@earthlink.net' usaj24@earthlink.net [mg-tabc]" mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> [b]To:[/b] Tweed lizandtweed@yahoo.co.uk> [b]Cc:[/b] mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [b]Sent:[/b] Monday, August 14, 2017 9:27 AM [b]Subject:[/b] Re: [mg-tabc] Drop arms. ( Sorry if this appears more than once)

 

 

Tweed,

No worries, there can never be enough discussion about how or why things break, and preventive measures.  

Personally I tend to worry more about fitting aftermarket critical parts with unknown QC issues. However this line of thinking should be more relevant today when NOS OEM  critical parts are becoming unobtanium, and who knows where today's parts are sourced and what level of QC they went through from A to Z.

Those touting VALUE of items like OEM VW steering components  should be be promoting advantages they offer in the way of safety in the way of high levels of OEM QC (Quality  Control) and traceability in mfg. process from raw material to end product.

Too many vintage critical parts are sourced from suppliers in third world countries based on cost, not degree of quality testing provided throughout mfg. supply chain.

 

Bill

TC 4926

 

Sent from my iPad

On Aug 13, 2017, at 9:24 PM, Tweed lizandtweed@yahoo.co.uk [mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

I hope this does not kick off another debate on the merits or otherwise of the VW box over the BC, but after reading a very interesting article by a Mike James in John James' 'Totally T type' on aftermarket drop arms , I'm curious.     

 

I'm in the process of replacing the busted VW steering box in 0632 and the drop or Pitman arm supplied with the 

replacement is totally different to the one on the old unit. Both units are made by TWR, but the old drop arm is a VW original. 

  

Not only is it shorter, but it does not have the same amount of 'offset'.  Also, the tapered hole to accept the rod end is  the other way up ... on the 'old' one, the rod end is mounted on the top and secured from below. 

 

Pro! bably the biggest argument against changing from a BC box is the increased number of turns lock to lock, so having a shorter arm can only exasperate that.   

While the use of a longer arm won't reduce the number of turns, it would make for less movement of the wheel to achieve the same amount of lock at the hub  .... so in effect, making for a slightly 'quicker' box.  

 

Or am I talking out of the top of my head? 

 

Tweed. 

 

  

 

 

 

 


David Lodge
Posts: 156
Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2007 5:44 pm

Re: Drop arms. ( Sorry if this appears more than once)

Post by David Lodge » Mon Aug 14, 2017 10:02 pm

Why does this make me think of the TC? http://www.jegs.com/p/RCI/RCI-Engine-Diapers/756159/10002/-1?utm_source=email&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=20170814email
On 14 August 2017 at 11:07, 'Eugene F. Gillam' anngene@bellsouth.net [mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> wrote: [u][/u] I believe with suppliers like FTFU here in the USA that quality control is part and parcel of their buying process at least I hope it is. Gene GillamSaucier, MS On Aug 14, 2017, at 12:09 PM, Steve S mail@mgnuts.com [mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> wrote: All fair points, but I think the issue is with parts that could kill you if they failed. A broken axle is a minor inconvenience, but a broken steering component can kill you and whoever you consequently run into. I don't think anyone is in this hobby thinking that it's ok if it kills them! We take a risk by driving a car with no modern safety equipment in place, but I think it's reasonable to expect that the steering system will remain in one piece. If I drive myself off a cliff then ok, but I'd rather it be my mistake than a failed steering arm! - Steve Simmons, TC8975

Norman Verona
Posts: 107
Joined: Sun May 17, 2015 4:21 am

Re: Drop arms. ( Sorry if this appears more than once)

Post by Norman Verona » Mon Aug 14, 2017 11:54 pm

No, no, no. The engine oil leaks are there for a reason, it s to keep the chassis from rusting.

 

 

[b][i]Norman Verona[/i][/b]

11 Cherry Close, Royston, South Yorkshire S71 4LZ

Phone: 0044 (0)1226 728811

Mob: 0044 (0)741 9905 741

[b][i]Web: www.frenchblat.com[/i][/b]

 

[b]From:[/b] mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com] [b]On Behalf Of [/b]David Lodge emmgeeteesee@gmail.com [mg-tabc] [b]Sent:[/b] 15 August 2017 06:02 [b]Cc:[/b] mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [b]Subject:[/b] Re: [mg-tabc] Drop arms. ( Sorry if this appears more than once)

 

 

Why does this make me think of the TC? http://www.jegs.com/p/RCI/RCI-Engine-Diapers/756159/10002/-1?utm_source=email&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=20170814email

 

On 14 August 2017 at 11:07, 'Eugene F. Gillam' anngene@bellsouth.net [mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

I believe with suppliers like FTFU here in the USA that quality control is part and parcel of their buying process at least I hope it is.

 

Gene Gillam

Saucier, MS

 

 

On Aug 14, 2017, at 12:09 PM, Steve S mail@mgnuts.com [mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

 

 

All fair points, but I think the issue is with parts that could kill you if they failed.  A broken axle is a minor inconvenience, but a broken steering component can kill you and whoever you consequently run into.  I don't think anyone is in this hobby thinking that it's ok if it kills them!  We take a risk by driving a car with no modern safety equipment in place, but I think it's reasonable to expect that the steering system will remain in one piece.  If I drive myself off a cliff then ok, but I'd rather it be my mistake than a failed steering arm!

- Steve Simmons, TC8975

 

 


Steve S
Posts: 107
Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2005 2:56 pm

Re: Drop arms. ( Sorry if this appears more than once)

Post by Steve S » Tue Aug 15, 2017 1:32 am

Have you ever seen an axle break at 65 mph?  Obviously I'm talking about how they normally break, in first gear.  Hardly suicidal.

Or if axle breakage scares you, put a set of tapered axles in and stop worrying so much.  Or we can change my example (and that's all it was) to "a broken set of points is a minor inconvenience" if it will return sanity to the discussion!

- Steve Simmons, TC8975

On August 15, 2017 1:14:13 AM "Clive P Sherriff" csherriff99@gmail.com> wrote:

Steve,   Give up on this, If you think [b]"A broken axle is a minor inconvenience[/b][b],"[/b]  at 65 mph say, then you are quite clearly suicidal and well beyond saving     Clive   m mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm   ----- Original Message ----- [b]From:[/b] mail@mgnuts.com [mg-tabc] [b]To:[/b] mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [b]Sent:[/b] Monday, August 14, 2017 6:09 PM [b]Subject:[/b] Re: [mg-tabc] Drop arms. ( Sorry if this appears more than once)  

All fair points, but I think the issue is with parts that could kill you if they failed.  A broken axle is a minor inconvenience, but a broken steering component can kill you and whoever you consequently run into.  I don't think anyone is in this hobby thinking that it's ok if it kills them!  We take a risk by driving a car with no modern safety equipment in place, but I think it's reasonable to expect that the steering system will remain in one piece.  If I drive myself off a cliff then ok, but I'd rather it be my mistake than a failed steering arm! - Steve Simmons, TC8975 On 8/14/2017 9:57 AM, Stephen D Stierman morgan7709@sbcglobal.net [mg-tabc] wrote:   Safety?! Give me a break here.  It is a 70 year old car made of wood with a steel tube pointed at the drivers chest and a fuel tank as a rear bumper.  Lighting barely visible after dark, a chassis known to develop stress cracks, rear axles known to break, front spindles that crack and a crank shaft that sometimes breaks across a counter weight.  Made of materials scrounged after a war built with technology from well before. I am sorry I just cannot worry too much about the quality and traceability in manufacturing from raw material to end product.  We are lucky we can still get parts and keep these old crocks on the road for awhile longer.  By simply driving these  vehicles you are assuming a great deal of risk and if this is a big problem, maybe time to choose a different hobby. Steve TC2911, driving a car as old as I am. [b]From:[/b] 'Usaj24@earthlink.net'usaj24@earthlink.net[mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com [b]To:[/b] Tweed lizandtweed@yahoo.co.uk [b]Cc:[/b] mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [b]Sent:[/b] Monday, August 14, 2017 9:27 AM [b]Subject:[/b] Re: [mg-tabc] Drop arms. ( Sorry if this appears more than once)   Tweed, No worries, there can never be enough discussion about how or why things break, and preventive measures.   Personally I tend to worry more about fitting aftermarket critical parts with unknown QC issues. However this line of thinking should be more relevant today when NOS OEM  critical parts are becoming unobtanium, and who knows where today's parts are sourced and what level of QC they went through from A to Z. Those touting VALUE of items like OEM VW steering components  should be be promoting advantages they offer in the way of safety in the way of high levels of OEM QC (Quality  Control) and traceability in mfg. process from raw material to end product. Too many vintage critical parts are sourced from suppliers in third world countries based on cost, not degree of quality testing provided throughout mfg. supply chain. Bill TC 4926 Sent from my iPad On Aug 13, 2017, at 9:24 PM, Tweed lizandtweed@yahoo.co.uk [mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:   I hope this does not kick off another debate on the merits or otherwise of the VW box over the BC, but after reading a very interesting article by a Mike James in John James' 'Totally T type' on aftermarket drop arms , I'm curious.      I'm in the process of replacing the busted VW steering box in 0632 and the drop or Pitman arm supplied with the  replacement is totally different to the one on the old unit. Both units are made by TWR, but the old drop arm is a VW original.     Not only is it shorter, but it does not have the same amount of 'offset'.  Also, the tapered hole to accept the rod end is  the other way up ... on the 'old' one, the rod end is mounted on the top and secured from below.    Pro! bably the biggest argument against changing from a BC box is the increased number of turns lock to lock, so having a shorter arm can only exasperate that.    While the use of a longer arm won't reduce the number of turns, it would make for less movement of the wheel to achieve the same amount of lock at the hub  .... so in effect, making for a slightly 'quicker' box.   Or am I talking out of the top of my head?  Tweed.    

[img]https://ec.yimg.com/ec?url=https%3A%2F%2Fipmcdn.avast.com%2Fimages%2Ficons%2Ficon-envelope-tick-round-orange-animated-no-repeat-v1.gif&t=1522511708&sig=0HjfYIU2VIZcwe3EuoIByg--~D[/img] Virus-free. www.avast.com

Clive P Sherriff
Posts: 11
Joined: Sat Feb 20, 2016 12:22 am

Re: Drop arms. ( Sorry if this appears more than once)

Post by Clive P Sherriff » Tue Aug 15, 2017 3:17 am

Steve,   Give up on this, If you think [b]"A broken axle is a minor inconvenience[/b][b],"[/b]  at 65 mph say, then you are quite clearly suicidal and well beyond saving     Clive   m mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm  
----- Original Message ----- [b]From:[/b] mail@mgnuts.com [mg-tabc] [b]To:[/b] mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [b]Sent:[/b] Monday, August 14, 2017 6:09 PM [b]Subject:[/b] Re: [mg-tabc] Drop arms. ( Sorry if this appears more than once)  

All fair points, but I think the issue is with parts that could kill you if they failed.  A broken axle is a minor inconvenience, but a broken steering component can kill you and whoever you consequently run into.  I don't think anyone is in this hobby thinking that it's ok if it kills them!  We take a risk by driving a car with no modern safety equipment in place, but I think it's reasonable to expect that the steering system will remain in one piece.  If I drive myself off a cliff then ok, but I'd rather it be my mistake than a failed steering arm! - Steve Simmons, TC8975 On 8/14/2017 9:57 AM, Stephen D Stierman morgan7709@sbcglobal.net [mg-tabc] wrote:   Safety?! Give me a break here.  It is a 70 year old car made of wood with a steel tube pointed at the drivers chest and a fuel tank as a rear bumper.  Lighting barely visible after dark, a chassis known to develop stress cracks, rear axles known to break, front spindles that crack and a crank shaft that sometimes breaks across a counter weight.  Made of materials scrounged after a war built with technology from well before. I am sorry I just cannot worry too much about the quality and traceability in manufacturing from raw material to end product.  We are lucky we can still get parts and keep these old crocks on the road for awhile longer.  By simply driving these  vehicles you are assuming a great deal of risk and if this is a big problem, maybe time to choose a different hobby. Steve TC2911, driving a car as old as I am. [b]From:[/b] 'Usaj24@earthlink.net'usaj24@earthlink.net[mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com [b]To:[/b] Tweed lizandtweed@yahoo.co.uk [b]Cc:[/b] mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [b]Sent:[/b] Monday, August 14, 2017 9:27 AM [b]Subject:[/b] Re: [mg-tabc] Drop arms. ( Sorry if this appears more than once)   Tweed, No worries, there can never be enough discussion about how or why things break, and preventive measures.   Personally I tend to worry more about fitting aftermarket critical parts with unknown QC issues. However this line of thinking should be more relevant today when NOS OEM  critical parts are becoming unobtanium, and who knows where today's parts are sourced and what level of QC they went through from A to Z. Those touting VALUE of items like OEM VW steering components  should be be promoting advantages they offer in the way of safety in the way of high levels of OEM QC (Quality  Control) and traceability in mfg. process from raw material to end product. Too many vintage critical parts are sourced from suppliers in third world countries based on cost, not degree of quality testing provided throughout mfg. supply chain. Bill TC 4926 Sent from my iPad On Aug 13, 2017, at 9:24 PM, Tweed lizandtweed@yahoo.co.uk [mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:   I hope this does not kick off another debate on the merits or otherwise of the VW box over the BC, but after reading a very interesting article by a Mike James in John James' 'Totally T type' on aftermarket drop arms , I'm curious.      I'm in the process of replacing the busted VW steering box in 0632 and the drop or Pitman arm supplied with the  replacement is totally different to the one on the old unit. Both units are made by TWR, but the old drop arm is a VW original.     Not only is it shorter, but it does not have the same amount of 'offset'.  Also, the tapered hole to accept the rod end is  the other way up ... on the 'old' one, the rod end is mounted on the top and secured from below.    Pro! bably the biggest argument against changing from a BC box is the increased number of turns lock to lock, so having a shorter arm can only exasperate that.    While the use of a longer arm won't reduce the number of turns, it would make for less movement of the wheel to achieve the same amount of lock at the hub  .... so in effect, making for a slightly 'quicker' box.   Or am I talking out of the top of my head?  Tweed.    

[img]https://ec.yimg.com/ec?url=https%3A%2F%2Fipmcdn.avast.com%2Fimages%2Ficons%2Ficon-envelope-tick-round-orange-animated-no-repeat-v1.gif&t=1522511709&sig=iR0e2XiruH8sj3M4xy5Gfg--~D[/img] Virus-free. www.avast.com

Clive P Sherriff
Posts: 11
Joined: Sat Feb 20, 2016 12:22 am

Re: Drop arms. ( Sorry if this appears more than once)

Post by Clive P Sherriff » Tue Aug 15, 2017 3:18 am

Dear Steve,   Let's not get up tight about this   Yes I have had a TABC Type axle break at 65 mph.   and in another historic car, a rear axle disintergrate at over 130mph.   Have you ?   It's no trivial matter.   By your flippant reply I can only assume you have not.  Or perhaps you just did not notice?    Anyway, I suspect the confusion is that you don't know what an "axle" is and that what you actually mean is a half shaft.  And a tapered half shaft is not going to stop an axle breaking, front or rear !   Either way I still maintain that it is a prime requirement that suppliers should employ more than sufficient quality control and sampling to ensure all their products are safe to use, dimensionally correct, employ the correct and correctly treated materials, and are fit for purpose.  Many do not seem to do this and just sell on what they order in regardless.   All Best   Clive Oxford UK.   m mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
----- Original Message ----- [b]From:[/b] mail@mgnuts.com [b]To:[/b] csherriff99@gmail.com ; mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [b]Sent:[/b] Tuesday, August 15, 2017 9:32 AM [b]Subject:[/b] Re: [mg-tabc] Drop arms. ( Sorry if this appears more than once) Have you ever seen an axle break at 65 mph?  Obviously I'm talking about how they normally break, in first gear.  Hardly suicidal.

Or if axle breakage scares you, put a set of tapered axles in and stop worrying so much.  Or we can change my example (and that's all it was) to "a broken set of points is a minor inconvenience" if it will return sanity to the discussion!

- Steve Simmons, TC8975

On August 15, 2017 1:14:13 AM "Clive P Sherriff" csherriff99@gmail.com> wrote:

Steve,   Give up on this, If you think [b]"A broken axle is a minor inconvenience[/b][b],"[/b]  at 65 mph say, then you are quite clearly suicidal and well beyond saving     Clive   m mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm   ----- Original Message ----- [b]From:[/b] mail@mgnuts.com [mg-tabc] [b]To:[/b] mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [b]Sent:[/b] Monday, August 14, 2017 6:09 PM [b]Subject:[/b] Re: [mg-tabc] Drop arms. ( Sorry if this appears more than once)  

All fair points, but I think the issue is with parts that could kill you if they failed.  A broken axle is a minor inconvenience, but a broken steering component can kill you and whoever you consequently run into.  I don't think anyone is in this hobby thinking that it's ok if it kills them!  We take a risk by driving a car with no modern safety equipment in place, but I think it's reasonable to expect that the steering system will remain in one piece.  If I drive myself off a cliff then ok, but I'd rather it be my mistake than a failed steering arm! - Steve Simmons, TC8975 On 8/14/2017 9:57 AM, Stephen D Stierman morgan7709@sbcglobal.net [mg-tabc] wrote:   Safety?! Give me a break here.  It is a 70 year old car made of wood with a steel tube pointed at the drivers chest and a fuel tank as a rear bumper.  Lighting barely visible after dark, a chassis known to develop stress cracks, rear axles known to break, front spindles that crack and a crank shaft that sometimes breaks across a counter weight.  Made of materials scrounged after a war built with technology from well before. I am sorry I just cannot worry too much about the quality and traceability in manufacturing from raw material to end product.  We are lucky we can still get parts and keep these old crocks on the road for awhile longer.  By simply driving these  vehicles you are assuming a great deal of risk and if this is a big problem, maybe time to choose a different hobby. Steve TC2911, driving a car as old as I am. [b]From:[/b] 'Usaj24@earthlink.net'usaj24@earthlink.net[mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com [b]To:[/b] Tweed lizandtweed@yahoo.co.uk [b]Cc:[/b] mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [b]Sent:[/b] Monday, August 14, 2017 9:27 AM [b]Subject:[/b] Re: [mg-tabc] Drop arms. ( Sorry if this appears more than once)   Tweed, No worries, there can never be enough discussion about how or why things break, and preventive measures.   Personally I tend to worry more about fitting aftermarket critical parts with unknown QC issues. However this line of thinking should be more relevant today when NOS OEM  critical parts are becoming unobtanium, and who knows where today's parts are sourced and what level of QC they went through from A to Z. Those touting VALUE of items like OEM VW steering components  should be be promoting advantages they offer in the way of safety in the way of high levels of OEM QC (Quality  Control) and traceability in mfg. process from raw material to end product. Too many vintage critical parts are sourced from suppliers in third world countries based on cost, not degree of quality testing provided throughout mfg. supply chain. Bill TC 4926 Sent from my iPad On Aug 13, 2017, at 9:24 PM, Tweed lizandtweed@yahoo.co.uk [mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:   I hope this does not kick off another debate on the merits or otherwise of the VW box over the BC, but after reading a very interesting article by a Mike James in John James' 'Totally T type' on aftermarket drop arms , I'm curious.      I'm in the process of replacing the busted VW steering box in 0632 and the drop or Pitman arm supplied with the  replacement is totally different to the one on the old unit. Both units are made by TWR, but the old drop arm is a VW original.     Not only is it shorter, but it does not have the same amount of 'offset'.  Also, the tapered hole to accept the rod end is  the other way up ... on the 'old' one, the rod end is mounted on the top and secured from below.    Pro! bably the biggest argument against changing from a BC box is the increased number of turns lock to lock, so having a shorter arm can only exasperate that.    While the use of a longer arm won't reduce the number of turns, it would make for less movement of the wheel to achieve the same amount of lock at the hub  .... so in effect, making for a slightly 'quicker' box.   Or am I talking out of the top of my head?  Tweed.    

[img]https://ec.yimg.com/ec?url=https%3A%2F%2Fipmcdn.avast.com%2Fimages%2Ficons%2Ficon-envelope-tick-round-orange-animated-no-repeat-v1.gif&t=1522511709&sig=iR0e2XiruH8sj3M4xy5Gfg--~D[/img] Virus-free. www.avast.com

Conan Murphy
Posts: 16
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2010 9:57 am

Re: Drop arms. ( Sorry if this appears more than once)

Post by Conan Murphy » Tue Aug 15, 2017 4:23 am

Dear T Groupies,   If you read any pre-war advert for MG, you will often see the slogan The Marque of Friendship .   So can we all please remember this and stop criticising each other.  Nothing puts ordinary readers off quicker than this sort of stuff.   Regards to all, Ian Linton TA3120 Lewes, East Sussex, UK   [b]From:[/b] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com [b]Sent:[/b] Tuesday, August 15, 2017 9:14 AM [b]To:[/b] mail@mgnuts.com ; mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [b]Subject:[/b] Re: [mg-tabc] Drop arms. ( Sorry if this appears more than once)     Steve,   Give up on this, If you think [b]"A broken axle is a minor inconvenience[/b][b],"[/b]  at 65 mph say, then you are quite clearly suicidal and well beyond saving     Clive   m mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm  
----- Original Message ----- [b]From:[/b] mail@mgnuts.com [mg-tabc] [b]To:[/b] mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [b]Sent:[/b] Monday, August 14, 2017 6:09 PM [b]Subject:[/b] Re: [mg-tabc] Drop arms. ( Sorry if this appears more than once)   

All fair points, but I think the issue is with parts that could kill you if they failed.  A broken axle is a minor inconvenience, but a broken steering component can kill you and whoever you consequently run into.  I don't think anyone is in this hobby thinking that it's ok if it kills them!  We take a risk by driving a car with no modern safety equipment in place, but I think it's reasonable to expect that the steering system will remain in one piece.  If I drive myself off a cliff then ok, but I'd rather it be my mistake than a failed steering arm! - Steve Simmons, TC8975 On 8/14/2017 9:57 AM, Stephen D Stierman morgan7709@sbcglobal.net [mg-tabc] wrote:   Safety?! Give me a break here.  It is a 70 year old car made of wood with a steel tube pointed at the drivers chest and a fuel tank as a rear bumper.  Lighting barely visible after dark, a chassis known to develop stress cracks, rear axles known to break, front spindles that crack and a crank shaft that sometimes breaks across a counter weight.  Made of materials scrounged after a war built with technology from well before. I am sorry I just cannot worry too much about the quality and traceability in manufacturing from raw material to end product.  We are lucky we can still get parts and keep these old crocks on the road for awhile longer.  By simply driving these  vehicles you are assuming a great deal of risk and if this is a big problem, maybe time to choose a different hobby.   Steve TC2911, driving a car as old as I am. [b]From:[/b] 'Usaj24@earthlink.net'usaj24@earthlink.net[mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com [b]To:[/b] Tweed lizandtweed@yahoo.co.uk [b]Cc:[/b] mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [b]Sent:[/b] Monday, August 14, 2017 9:27 AM [b]Subject:[/b] Re: [mg-tabc] Drop arms. ( Sorry if this appears more than once)     Tweed, No worries, there can never be enough discussion about how or why things break, and preventive measures.  Personally I tend to worry more about fitting aftermarket critical parts with unknown QC issues. However this line of thinking should be more relevant today when NOS OEM  critical parts are becoming unobtanium, and who knows where today's parts are sourced and what level of QC they went through from A to Z. Those touting VALUE of items like OEM VW steering components  should be be promoting advantages they offer in the way of safety in the way of high levels of OEM QC (Quality  Control) and traceability in mfg. process from raw material to end product. Too many vintage critical parts are sourced from suppliers in third world countries based on cost, not degree of quality testing provided throughout mfg. supply chain.   Bill TC 4926 Sent from my iPad On Aug 13, 2017, at 9:24 PM, Tweed lizandtweed@yahoo.co.uk [mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:   I hope this does not kick off another debate on the merits or otherwise of the VW box over the BC, but after reading a very interesting article by a Mike James in John James' 'Totally T type' on aftermarket drop arms , I'm curious.       I'm in the process of replacing the busted VW steering box in 0632 and the drop or Pitman arm supplied with the replacement is totally different to the one on the old unit. Both units are made by TWR, but the old drop arm is a VW original. Not only is it shorter, but it does not have the same amount of 'offset'.  Also, the tapered hole to accept the rod end is  the other way up ... on the 'old' one, the rod end is mounted on the top and secured from below.   Pro! bably the biggest argument against changing from a BC box is the increased number of turns lock to lock, so having a shorter arm can only exasperate that.   While the use of a longer arm won't reduce the number of turns, it would make for less movement of the wheel to achieve the same amount of lock at the hub  .... so in effect, making for a slightly 'quicker' box.    Or am I talking out of the top of my head?   Tweed.        

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Steve S
Posts: 107
Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2005 2:56 pm

Re: Drop arms. ( Sorry if this appears more than once)

Post by Steve S » Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:30 am

Clive, I don't know what all the bitterness is about but I'm truly sorry you feel that way. Nor am I clear why you're looking to pick a fight where none was intended. It's obvious that my (well intentioned) comment was about axle shafts / half shafts, not the axle housing or a front axle. If you scroll down to read it again you may realize it was intended as polite discussion, not antagonism. And no, I've never seen a TC axle housing or front axle break at speed but yes, I'm sure I would notice if it had. If you have them, I'd love to see photos of the ones you've seen break and hear how it happened, as I'm sure others would. Surely an extremely rare event that we could all learn from. As for the discussion, I actually thought I was agreeing with you but I must have struck a nerve somewhere, so I apologize. Or perhaps you've confused me with the other Steve in this thread, Steve Stierman, who I believe has an opinion contrary to mine. I wasn't the one who brought up safety and quality control, and the reply you're picking on me for (over terminology of all things) wasn't actually to you. I was respectfully replying to the other Steve, and agreeing with Bill that safety critical components like drop arms should be manufactured to adequate specification. If you disagree with that then I guess we do disagree on something, but you're certainly entitled to your opinion like everyone else. And just to be clear... yes, I know what a half shaft / axle shaft is but I suspect you already know that. And I also suspect you know that "snapping an axle" is a common term referring to half shafts. Incidentally, Bob Grunau's tapered half shafts are listed in his catalog as "TA/TC tapered rear axles with key and nut" so apparently he doesn't know what an half shaft is either! (joke) I still agree with Bill who stated "there can never be enough discussion about how or why things break, and preventive measures". But I guess we can't do that here anymore. Pity. - Steve Simmons, TC8975 (who runs Bob's wonderful tapered axles / half shafts / axle shafts, as well as his front spindles and spin on adapter) On 8/15/2017 3:18 AM, Clive P Sherriff wrote:
Dear Steve, Let's not get up tight about this Yes I have had a TABC Type axle break at 65 mph. and in another historic car, a rear axle disintergrate at over 130mph. Have you ? It's no trivial matter. By your flippant reply I can only assume you have not. Or perhaps you just did not notice? Anyway, I suspect the confusion is that you don't know what an "axle" is and that what you actually mean is a half shaft. And a tapered half shaft is not going to stop an axle breaking, front or rear ! Either way I still maintain that it is a prime requirement that suppliers should employ more than sufficient quality control and sampling to ensure all their products are safe to use, dimensionally correct, employ the correct and correctly treated materials, and are fit for purpose. Many do not seem to do this and just sell on what they order in regardless. All Best Clive Oxford UK. m mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm ----- Original Message ----- [b]From:[/b] mail@mgnuts.com [b]To:[/b] csherriff99@gmail.com ; mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [b]Sent:[/b] Tuesday, August 15, 2017 9:32 AM [b]Subject:[/b] Re: [mg-tabc] Drop arms. ( Sorry if this appears more than once) Have you ever seen an axle break at 65 mph? Obviously I'm talking about how they normally break, in first gear. Hardly suicidal.

Or if axle breakage scares you, put a set of tapered axles in and stop worrying so much. Or we can change my example (and that's all it was) to "a broken set of points is a minor inconvenience" if it will return sanity to the discussion!

- Steve Simmons, TC8975

On August 15, 2017 1:14:13 AM "Clive P Sherriff" csherriff99@gmail.com wrote:

Steve, Give up on this, If you think [b]"A broken axle is a minor inconvenience[/b][b],"[/b] at 65 mph say, then you are quite clearly suicidal and well beyond saving Clive m mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm ----- Original Message ----- [b]From:[/b] mail@mgnuts.com%20[mg-tabc] [b]To:[/b] mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [b]Sent:[/b] Monday, August 14, 2017 6:09 PM [b]Subject:[/b] Re: [mg-tabc] Drop arms. ( Sorry if this appears more than once) All fair points, but I think the issue is with parts that could kill you if they failed. A broken axle [shaft] is a minor inconvenience, but a broken steering component can kill you and whoever you consequently run into. I don't think anyone is in this hobby thinking that it's ok if it kills them! We take a risk by driving a car with no modern safety equipment in place, but I think it's reasonable to expect that the steering system will remain in one piece. If I drive myself off a cliff then ok, but I'd rather it be my mistake than a failed steering arm! - Steve Simmons, TC8975 On 8/14/2017 9:57 AM, Stephen D Stierman morgan7709@sbcglobal.net [mg-tabc] wrote: Safety?! Give me a break here. It is a 70 year old car made of wood with a steel tube pointed at the drivers chest and a fuel tank as a rear bumper. Lighting barely visible after dark, a chassis known to develop stress cracks, rear axles known to break, front spindles that crack and a crank shaft that sometimes breaks across a counter weight. Made of materials scrounged after a war built with technology from well before. I am sorry I just cannot worry too much about the quality and traceability in manufacturing from raw material to end product. We are lucky we can still get parts and keep these old crocks on the road for awhile longer. By simply driving these vehicles you are assuming a great deal of risk and if this is a big problem, maybe time to choose a different hobby. Steve TC2911, driving a car as old as I am. [b]From:[/b] %27Usaj24@earthlink.net%27usaj24@earthlink.net[mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com [b]To:[/b] Tweed lizandtweed@yahoo.co.uk [b]Cc:[/b] mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [b]Sent:[/b] Monday, August 14, 2017 9:27 AM [b]Subject:[/b] Re: [mg-tabc] Drop arms. ( Sorry if this appears more than once) Tweed, No worries, there can never be enough discussion about how or why things break, and preventive measures. Personally I tend to worry more about fitting aftermarket critical parts with unknown QC issues. However this line of thinking should be more relevant today when NOS OEM critical parts are becoming unobtanium, and who knows where today's parts are sourced and what level of QC they went through from A to Z. Those touting VALUE of items like OEM VW steering components should be be promoting advantages they offer in the way of safety in the way of high levels of OEM QC (Quality Control) and traceability in mfg. process from raw material to end product. Too many vintage critical parts are sourced from suppliers in third world countries based on cost, not degree of quality testing provided throughout mfg. supply chain. Bill TC 4926 Sent from my iPad On Aug 13, 2017, at 9:24 PM, Tweed lizandtweed@yahoo.co.uk [mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> wrote: I hope this does not kick off another debate on the merits or otherwise of the VW box over the BC, but after reading a very interesting article by a Mike James in John James' 'Totally T type' on aftermarket drop arms , I'm curious. I'm in the process of replacing the busted VW steering box in 0632 and the drop or Pitman arm supplied with the replacement is totally different to the one on the old unit. Both units are made by TWR, but the old drop arm is a VW original. Not only is it shorter, but it does not have the same amount of 'offset'. Also, the tapered hole to accept the rod end is the other way up ... on the 'old' one, the rod end is mounted on the top and secured from below. Pro! bably the biggest argument against changing from a BC box is the increased number of turns lock to lock, so having a shorter arm can only exasperate that. While the use of a longer arm won't reduce the number of turns, it would make for less movement of the wheel to achieve the same amount of lock at the hub .... so in effect, making for a slightly 'quicker' box. Or am I talking out of the top of my head? Tweed.
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