Re: Cylinder Head Gasket

[John T. Seim]

I have always wondered about the workshop manual, and all other manuals hence, statement that a round hole water gasket is to be used only for round hole block to round hole head applications. Any combination of round with banana should use a banana hole head gasket. In research, the reasons were a larger water passage opening at the rear of the gasket. In comparisons, I see no difference, with respect to this area between a banana hole gasket and a round hole gasket. This might have been the case when these gaskets were first produced. However, over the years, I think that gasket manufacturers have reduced this variable, when manufacturing new gaskets. I have checked the water passage area in a banana hole head, and a banana hole block, and find that it lines up with the center of the round hole gasket. I realize that a small portion of the round hole passage will not be compressed when placed over a banana shaped area. The plus side of using a round hole over a banana hole is the elimination of erosion. A banana hole will place an erosion area into the round hole head or block, shaped in the banana pattern. A machine shop will try to remove this erosion area, when surfacing the head or block, thus removing more material than simply making the surface flat. I am glad to see that Skip has used a round hole gasket, with no harmful effects, in a banana/round application. Aside from spouting "the written word", is there a definite reason to go along with the workshop manuals, or is there a possibility of a misprint, that was never caught, in any reprinting of the factory workshop manual, and copied into all other manuals published. John Seim Irvine, CA Skip Kelsey wrote:

> > Chip: > > I have been running a "bannana" block, bored .100, and a "round" head for > the past 40 years, using a TF-1500 head gasket. Due to the overbore, and > not wanting the gasket to overhang the cyls. It has never given me any > trouble. The current rebuild,now has 55,000 miles on it, and is heading for > Durango,Co. in June to the GoF. > > SKip Kelsey.................................................. > > At 01:27 PM 4/27/02 -0400, Chip Old wrote: > >holes, use a gasket with oblong water holes. If head and block both have > >round holes, use a gasket with round holes. If you use a head of one type > >on a block of the other type, use a gasket with oblong water holes > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

[Chip Old]

You're correct about the original reasons for specifying a banana hole gasket in a round head/banana block or banana head/round block configuration. You're also correct that the rear water passage is no longer an issue, because all gaskets made in the past 35 years or so (the ones I've seen, at least) had a large enough opening to accommodate both types. My concern is as I explained in a subsequent message. When a round hole gasket is used the edge of the gasket around the water hole is not compressed, so the two copper layers are not crimped together. This can allow coolant to seep into core of the gasket, eventually leading to deterioration of ther core material and loss of gasket compression in the deteriorated areas. I've seen this on several engines. Now, it has been almost 30 years since I did much XPAG work, so it may be that modern gaskets are better made. I don't know about that.

On Sun, 28 Apr 2002, John T. Seim wrote: > I have always wondered about the workshop manual, and all other manuals > hence, statement that a round hole water gasket is to be used only for > round hole block to round hole head applications. Any combination of > round with banana should use a banana hole head gasket. In research, the > reasons were a larger water passage opening at the rear of the gasket. > In comparisons, I see no difference, with respect to this area between a > banana hole gasket and a round hole gasket. This might have been the > case when these gaskets were first produced. However, over the years, I > think that gasket manufacturers have reduced this variable, when > manufacturing new gaskets. I have checked the water passage area in a > banana hole head, and a banana hole block, and find that it lines up > with the center of the round hole gasket. I realize that a small portion > of the round hole passage will not be compressed when placed over a > banana shaped area. The plus side of using a round hole over a banana > hole is the elimination of erosion. A banana hole will place an erosion > area into the round hole head or block, shaped in the banana pattern. A > machine shop will try to remove this erosion area, when surfacing the > head or block, thus removing more material than simply making the > surface flat. I am glad to see that Skip has used a round hole gasket, > with no harmful effects, in a banana/round application. Aside from > spouting "the written word", is there a definite reason to go along with > the workshop manuals, or is there a possibility of a misprint, that was > never caught, in any reprinting of the factory workshop manual, and > copied into all other manuals published. -- Chip Old 1948 M.G. TC TC6710 XPAG7430 NEMGTR #2271 Cub Hill, Maryland 1962 Triumph TR4 CT3154LO CT3479E fold@bcpl.net

[Donald Wilkinson]

Hey, a couple (theoretical) things occur to digitaldon: 1. Copper gasket- soldering iron might pre-seal non compressed area. 2. Might one pre-compress- i.e. pre-crimp non-crimped area with as couple washers & a bolt? Don TC7993

>From: Chip Old fold@bcpl.net> >To: MG-TABC mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com> >Subject: [mg-tabc] Re: Cylinder Head Gasket >Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2002 14:24:13 -0400 (EDT) > >You're correct about the original reasons for specifying a banana hole >gasket in a round head/banana block or banana head/round block >configuration. You're also correct that the rear water passage is no >longer an issue, because all gaskets made in the past 35 years or so (the >ones I've seen, at least) had a large enough opening to accommodate both >types. > >My concern is as I explained in a subsequent message. When a round hole >gasket is used the edge of the gasket around the water hole is not >compressed, so the two copper layers are not crimped together. This can >allow coolant to seep into core of the gasket, eventually leading to >deterioration of ther core material and loss of gasket compression in the >deteriorated areas. I've seen this on several engines. Now, it has been >almost 30 years since I did much XPAG work, so it may be that modern >gaskets are better made. I don't know about that. > >On Sun, 28 Apr 2002, John T. Seim wrote: > > > I have always wondered about the workshop manual, and all other manuals > > hence, statement that a round hole water gasket is to be used only for > > round hole block to round hole head applications. Any combination of > > round with banana should use a banana hole head gasket. In research, the > > reasons were a larger water passage opening at the rear of the gasket. > > In comparisons, I see no difference, with respect to this area between a > > banana hole gasket and a round hole gasket. This might have been the > > case when these gaskets were first produced. However, over the years, I > > think that gasket manufacturers have reduced this variable, when > > manufacturing new gaskets. I have checked the water passage area in a > > banana hole head, and a banana hole block, and find that it lines up > > with the center of the round hole gasket. I realize that a small portion > > of the round hole passage will not be compressed when placed over a > > banana shaped area. The plus side of using a round hole over a banana > > hole is the elimination of erosion. A banana hole will place an erosion > > area into the round hole head or block, shaped in the banana pattern. A > > machine shop will try to remove this erosion area, when surfacing the > > head or block, thus removing more material than simply making the > > surface flat. I am glad to see that Skip has used a round hole gasket, > > with no harmful effects, in a banana/round application. Aside from > > spouting "the written word", is there a definite reason to go along with > > the workshop manuals, or is there a possibility of a misprint, that was > > never caught, in any reprinting of the factory workshop manual, and > > copied into all other manuals published. > >-- >Chip Old 1948 M.G. TC TC6710 XPAG7430 NEMGTR #2271 >Cub Hill, Maryland 1962 Triumph TR4 CT3154LO CT3479E >fold@bcpl.net > > > > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > >

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[Chip Old]

On Mon, 29 Apr 2002, Donald Wilkinson wrote:

> Hey, a couple (theoretical) things occur to digitaldon: > > 1. Copper gasket- soldering iron might pre-seal non compressed area.

Maybe, but (1) you'll need to find some way to remove the coating from the copper, (2) be sure to use a noncorrosive flux (3) don't build up lumps of solder (4) it probably won't work and (5) it probably isn't worth the effort.

> 2. Might one pre-compress- i.e. pre-crimp non-crimped area with as > couple washers & a bolt?

Also not worth the effort. If it isn't kept under compression, any pre-compression will be lost. Look, several others here have reported good results with round-hole gaskets used with banana hole head and/or block. If it works for them, it should work for you. My bad experience with that combination dates back a long time, so it's possible that materials and/or contruction methods have imnproved. Do what works. -- Chip Old 1948 M.G. TC TC6710 XPAG7430 NEMGTR #2271 Cub Hill, Maryland 1962 Triumph TR4 CT3154LO CT3479E fold@bcpl.net

[Donald Wilkinson]

OK, you talked me out of it. Don TC 7993

>From: Chip Old fold@bcpl.net> >To: MG-TABC mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com> >Subject: Re: [mg-tabc] Re: Cylinder Head Gasket >Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2002 21:32:09 -0400 (EDT) > >On Mon, 29 Apr 2002, Donald Wilkinson wrote: > > > Hey, a couple (theoretical) things occur to digitaldon: > > > > 1. Copper gasket- soldering iron might pre-seal non compressed area. > >Maybe, but (1) you'll need to find some way to remove the coating from >the copper, (2) be sure to use a noncorrosive flux (3) don't build up >lumps of solder (4) it probably won't work and (5) it probably isn't worth >the effort. > > > 2. Might one pre-compress- i.e. pre-crimp non-crimped area with as > > couple washers & a bolt? > >Also not worth the effort. If it isn't kept under compression, any >pre-compression will be lost. > >Look, several others here have reported good results with round-hole >gaskets used with banana hole head and/or block. If it works for them, it >should work for you. My bad experience with that combination dates back a >long time, so it's possible that materials and/or contruction methods >have imnproved. Do what works. > >-- >Chip Old 1948 M.G. TC TC6710 XPAG7430 NEMGTR #2271 >Cub Hill, Maryland 1962 Triumph TR4 CT3154LO CT3479E >fold@bcpl.net > > > > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > >

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