Language clarification

[Sally Carroll]

Hey guys: POSH stands for Port Out, Starboard Home a term applied to the best cabins on the round the Horn 30-40 day ships bound for India with Employees of the East India Company and their families and also the Army assigned to keeping the peace in the 'colonies'. . . .These accomodations provided shade for the delicate sensibilities of officers and executives. . . My husbands grandfather was born in Benares(now Varanasi) in 1860 after a two hundred mile march across northern India with his fathers' Green Howards Army regiment....and when he was 11 his father took him 'home' to school in England (his mother having died) When he was 14 he enlisted in the same regiment, his official job description "boy". Basically apprentice and he was trained to be a bootmaker by the British Army, in India. And Char (as applied here) is an anglicization of the Chinese word for Tea which was an costly delicacy served in the finest homes at great expense. Thus the ornate tea caddies, which were family heirlooms to be handed down. The closest pidgin/phonetic spelling is actually "T'saa" and char is a cleaning lady from 'Charwoman.' Lesson over. . .. Sally Carroll

[Want1937hd@aol.com]

Sally, Thank you so much for picking up my POSH statement, and sharing that nice family story. A most pleasant holiday from the "which way do I turn the bolt to loosen it" discussions. Bob TC4956

[The Wilsons]

Although this has nothing to do with T-ABC's, I would not want our group to be guilty of promoting the popular but erroneous origin of the word "posh." Dictionaries will usually say "origin unknown" for this word, as that is indeed the case, but the "port out, starboard home" origin is now rejected by the experts as a classic example of folk etymology. The following is from http://www.word-detective.com/backidx.html , which is full of interesting information on word origins, "The theory is that "posh" comes from the days of ocean travel between England and India. The wealthy, it was said, would get the most desirable cabins on whichever side of the ship remained untouched by the blistering tropical sun. Such preferred arrangements were said to be "port (left side) out, starboard (right side) home," neatly summed up in the acronym "posh." It's a lovely theory -- too bad there's not a shred of evidence in its favor, and a good deal of evidence against it. Among other things, it seems that neither the crews of the ships in service on that route nor the owners of the steamship lines, questioned about the term, had ever heard of it. There are other theories, but the one now accepted by most authorities is, in a way, the most exotic. "Posh" is an actual word in Romany, the language of the Gypsies, meaning "half." Evidently the word originally entered the argot of England's underworld in the 17th century in such compounds as "posh-houri," meaning "half-pence," and soon became a slang term for money in general. From there it was a short hop to meaning "expensive" or "fancy." Ironically, it was probably the Gypsies, who came originally from Northern India themselves, who introduced "posh" to the English language without ever setting foot on an ocean liner." And, from the ultimate authority on the English language, the Oxford English Dictionary, "Of obscure origin.... The suggestion that this word is derived from the initials of port outward, starboard home , referring to the more expensive side for accommodation on ships formerly travelling between England and India, is often put forward but lacks foundation. The main objections to this derivation are listed by G. Chowdharay-Best in Mariner s Mirror (1971) Jan. 91 2."

[Mark McCombs]

Badger, I'm waiting......

----- Original Message ----- From: "The Wilsons" wilsonrs@ix.netcom.com> To: "MGT list" mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2001 2:10 PM Subject: [mg-tabc] Re: Language clarification > Although this has nothing to do with T-ABC's, I would not want our group > to be guilty of promoting the popular but erroneous origin of the word > "posh." Dictionaries will usually say "origin unknown" for this word, > as that is indeed the case, but the "port out, starboard home" origin is > now rejected by the experts as a classic example of folk etymology. > > The following is from http://www.word-detective.com/backidx.html , which > is full of interesting information on word origins, > > "The theory is that "posh" comes from the days of ocean travel between > England and India. The wealthy, it was said, would get the most > desirable cabins on whichever side of the ship remained untouched by the > blistering tropical sun. Such preferred arrangements were said to be > "port (left side) out, starboard (right side) home," neatly summed up in > the acronym "posh." It's a lovely theory -- too bad there's not a shred > of evidence in its favor, and a good deal of evidence against it. Among > other things, it seems that neither the crews of the ships in service on > that route nor the owners of the steamship lines, questioned about the > term, had ever heard of it. There are other theories, but the one now > accepted by most authorities is, in a way, the most exotic. "Posh" is an > actual word in Romany, the language of the Gypsies, meaning "half." > Evidently the word originally entered the argot of England's underworld > in the 17th century in such compounds as "posh-houri," meaning > "half-pence," and soon became a slang term for money in general. From > there it was a short hop to meaning "expensive" or "fancy." > Ironically, it was probably the Gypsies, who came originally from > Northern India themselves, who introduced "posh" to the English language > without ever setting foot on an ocean liner." > > And, from the ultimate authority on the English language, the Oxford > English Dictionary, > > "Of obscure origin.... The suggestion that this word is derived from the > initials of 'port outward, starboard home', referring to the more > expensive side for accommodation on ships formerly travelling between > England and India, is often put forward but lacks foundation. The main > objections to this derivation are listed by G. Chowdharay-Best in > Mariner's Mirror (1971) Jan. 91 2." > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > >

[CFritz7001@aol.com]

It never fails to astound me how wide the interests, and deep the pool of knowledge to be found within the members of the TABC list Regards, Carl Fritz TC # 6756 (Betsy) VA # 2009 S (Abigail) Gainesville, Florida

[Geoff Love]

The Wilsons wrote:

> Although this has nothing to do with T-ABC's, I would not want our group > to be guilty of promoting the popular but erroneous origin of the word > "posh." Dictionaries will usually say "origin unknown" for this word, > as that is indeed the case, but the "port out, starboard home" origin is > now rejected by the experts as a classic example of folk etymology. >

Oh bloody 'ell. There goes another bit of the Old Empire. They'll be changing the meaning of "gay" and "Queen" next, or fitting Japanese steering columns and American motors into MGs. Where will it ever end? Screw the folk etymologists.

[paulhuck@bellsouth.net]

I like the port out, starbord home theoruy regardless of base. However, ifen it was a British ship it wopuld have been NOSOH, for Near Side Out, Offside Home So there PTH (since Badger has not responded)

----- Original Message ----- From: The Wilsons wilsonrs@ix.netcom.com> To: MGT list mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2001 1:10 PM Subject: [mg-tabc] Re: Language clarification > Although this has nothing to do with T-ABC's, I would not want our group > to be guilty of promoting the popular but erroneous origin of the word > "posh." Dictionaries will usually say "origin unknown" for this word, > as that is indeed the case, but the "port out, starboard home" origin is > now rejected by the experts as a classic example of folk etymology. > > The following is from http://www.word-detective.com/backidx.html , which > is full of interesting information on word origins, > > "The theory is that "posh" comes from the days of ocean travel between > England and India. The wealthy, it was said, would get the most > desirable cabins on whichever side of the ship remained untouched by the > blistering tropical sun. Such preferred arrangements were said to be > "port (left side) out, starboard (right side) home," neatly summed up in > the acronym "posh." It's a lovely theory -- too bad there's not a shred > of evidence in its favor, and a good deal of evidence against it. Among > other things, it seems that neither the crews of the ships in service on > that route nor the owners of the steamship lines, questioned about the > term, had ever heard of it. There are other theories, but the one now > accepted by most authorities is, in a way, the most exotic. "Posh" is an > actual word in Romany, the language of the Gypsies, meaning "half." > Evidently the word originally entered the argot of England's underworld > in the 17th century in such compounds as "posh-houri," meaning > "half-pence," and soon became a slang term for money in general. From > there it was a short hop to meaning "expensive" or "fancy." > Ironically, it was probably the Gypsies, who came originally from > Northern India themselves, who introduced "posh" to the English language > without ever setting foot on an ocean liner." > > And, from the ultimate authority on the English language, the Oxford > English Dictionary, > > "Of obscure origin.... The suggestion that this word is derived from the > initials of 'port outward, starboard home', referring to the more > expensive side for accommodation on ships formerly travelling between > England and India, is often put forward but lacks foundation. The main > objections to this derivation are listed by G. Chowdharay-Best in > Mariner's Mirror (1971) Jan. 91 2." > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > >

[David Lodge]

Actually, Sally, to be semantically correct, the Chinese for tea is T'sschai. So there! All the best, David Lodge Sally Carroll wrote:

> Hey guys: > > POSH stands for Port Out, Starboard Home a term applied to the best cabins on the round the Horn 30-40 day ships bound for India with Employees of the East India Company and their families and also the Army assigned to keeping the peace in the 'colonies'. . . .These accomodations provided shade for the delicate sensibilities of officers and executives. . . My husbands grandfather was born in Benares(now Varanasi) in 1860 after a two hundred mile march across northern India with his fathers' Green Howards Army regiment....and when he was 11 his father took him 'home' to school in England (his mother having died) When he was 14 he enlisted in the same regiment, his official job description "boy". Basically apprentice and he was trained to be a bootmaker by the British Army, in India. > > And Char (as applied here) is an anglicization of the Chinese word for Tea which was an costly delicacy served in the finest homes at great expense. Thus the ornate tea caddies, which were family heirlooms to be handed down. The closest pidgin/phonetic spelling is actually "T'saa" and char is a cleaning lady from 'Charwoman.' > > Lesson over. . .. Sally Carroll > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

[sg486@aol.com]

I believe Badger is in "Merry Olde" on annual holiday. Peter

[paulhuck@bellsouth.net]

Pronounced Chai. CHi PTH

----- Original Message ----- From: David Lodge wargs@Mac.com> To: Sally Carroll jim.n.sally.carroll@worldnet.att.net> Cc: mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2001 11:20 PM Subject: Re: [mg-tabc] Language clarification > Actually, Sally, to be semantically correct, the Chinese for tea is T'sschai. So there! > All the best, > David Lodge > > Sally Carroll wrote: > > > Hey guys: > > > > POSH stands for Port Out, Starboard Home a term applied to the best cabins on the round the Horn 30-40 day ships bound for India with Employees of the East India Company and their families and also the Army assigned to keeping the peace in the 'colonies'. . . .These accomodations provided shade for the delicate sensibilities of officers and executives. . . My husbands grandfather was born in Benares(now Varanasi) in 1860 after a two hundred mile march across northern India with his fathers' Green Howards Army regiment....and when he was 11 his father took him 'home' to school in England (his mother having died) When he was 14 he enlisted in the same regiment, his official job description "boy". Basically apprentice and he was trained to be a bootmaker by the British Army, in India. > > > > And Char (as applied here) is an anglicization of the Chinese word for Tea which was an costly delicacy served in the finest homes at great expense. Thus the ornate tea caddies, which were family heirlooms to be handed down. The closest pidgin/phonetic spelling is actually "T'saa" and char is a cleaning lady from 'Charwoman.' > > > > Lesson over. . .. Sally Carroll > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > >