TC steering

[Rick Waters]

Well said! The only thing I would add is that TCs were designed in the thirties, and require commensurate maintenance plus an attitudinal shift on the part of the driver, who most likely is used to 21st century auto engineering. -Rick, TC7881 Rick Waters Vancouver Canada -----Original Message----- From: Barney Jackson Barney@Sti.net> Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 07:33:47 To: MG tabcgroupsMG-tabc@yahoogroups.com> Subject: [mg-tabc] TC Steering I really can't understand all this "conversion" to VW or Datsun steering nonsense. I have had a long association (fifty-nine years!) with the stock Bishop box----a number of reworking, etc., but it is still in there and working well. It does need attention, as all the steering associated bits and pieces do, and I might add, quite frequently. I well remember discussing the steering with Al Moss after he returned from a cross-country trip----this was many years ago. He commented that every night, at the motel, he jacked up the TC and lubed all the fittings of the front end---every day! At the end of the trip, the steering was just as good as at the start. It is not just the box that gives people trouble, it is the entire system. It must be _lubed frequently, and readjusted as necessary_. I have driven my TC at freeway speeds, using just one hand on the wheel, with no trouble whatsoever. Yes, the Bishop box does wear, but frequent lubing and adjustment will slow that process. There are several fixes for the box, none of which are in my car-----sleeved, bored out, needle bearings, built up or new sector shaft, etc. About the only thing I use is the Tompkins kit -- it is very easy to adjust-----adding or removing shims is a pain, but does work. If the Bishop box in your car is beyond repair, find a good used one----they are out there----probably from the same guys that converted to something else. Barney Jackson TC 6110 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[BUD SILVERS]

Hello Barney; You stated: "I really can't understand all this "conversion" to VW or Datsun steering nonsense.." I would ask you to please reconsider your last word above. The reason is "Safety Fast!" and none other. Please look at the following link: http://www.usaviator.net/automotive/VWsteering.htm All of what you say is very true. The TC steering has a long record, and with your experience it is obviously excellent. The pros and cons of all the benefits and liabilities of the VW vs. TC steering have been hashed out here endlessly. There is no reason to go into it all again. The VW steering in my opinion is simply safer. In my short time with owning a TC I have personally seen a Sector Shaft which was twisted! This Sector Shaft belongs to Jim Goodwin of this list. This Sector Shaft is twisted at the point where the Pitman Arm clamps to it. I have heard stories of them breaking and indeed Mike Sherrell in TC's Forever mentions that the Pitman Arm can break in the same area. I should mention that I also advocate the use of modified Stub Axles. These are available from Bob Grunau in Canada and from Roger Furneaux in England. In addition I advocate the rebuilding of brakes and the use of soft shoes. My thinking is that if anything in the Steering or Brakes fail, I will probably be in very serious trouble. If a rear axle breaks I will simply be stranded. I am NOT saying that the TC steering is dangerous! I am saying that the VW steering is SAFER! I wish you the best with your car and sincerely hope that the conversion is indeed "nonsense" however for myself and my family and considering the miles I drive and the mountain roads that I love to drive on, I will do so with VW steering. With kindest personal regards, I shall remain, Sincerely, Bud Silvers TC 1576 - Low n slo in the Black Forest of Colorado...... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[BUD SILVERS]

Hello again all; Sorry to have at this one again, but I found a picture of the "TWISTED" Sector Shaft that I spoke of in my earlier email. I have posted it to the same web page as before. Here is the link again: http://www.usaviator.net/automotive/VWsteering.htm Bud Silvers TC 1576 - Low n slo in the Black Forest of Colorado...... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[D&J Edgar]

> I would ask you to please reconsider your last word above. The reason is > "Safety Fast!" and none other.

No offense to MG but if you use the term Safety Fast now days you would not consider driving a TC. Probably a good term years ago but with current airbags, traction control, anti-lock brakes, safety bumpers (fenders), side impact beams, exotic lighting, and such, the old TC is dangerous. Not that it would stop any of us from driving and enjoying them. And as Bob demonstrated, even the VW improved steering can be dangerous without maintenance (checking for loose bolts). Old cars take more frequent inspections and maintenance - fact of life. Do not treat your TC like your modern ride. David Edgar, TC 5108 (with BC steering, but Alfins and electronic ignitiion) El Cajon, California And I take no offense to those who do opt for other steering or improvements. Let us each enjoy our TCs like we want.

[murray arundell]

Driving at the speed limit on a US Freeway is hardly a worthwhile test of the abilities of any steering. Suggest you try and drive a the 60mph speed limit on less than perfect back roads..... This argument has gone on for years and will continue to. The answer is simple. Those who want to drive their cars safely under all road conditions can convert their steering something better. Those who prefer the live life on the edge when they venture off freeways leave it as it is...... Murray Arundell Brisbane Australia

On 21/07/2009, at 12:33 AM, Barney Jackson wrote: > I really can't understand all this "conversion" to VW or Datsun > steering > nonsense. I have had a long association (fifty-nine years!) with the > stock Bishop box----a number of reworking, etc., but it is still in > there and working well. It does need attention, as all the steering > associated bits and pieces do, and I might add, quite frequently. I > well remember discussing the steering with Al Moss after he returned > from a cross-country trip----this was many years ago. He commented > that > every night, at the motel, he jacked up the TC and lubed all the > fittings of the front end---every day! At the end of the trip, the > steering was just as good as at the start. It is not just the box that > gives people trouble, it is the entire system. It must be _lubed > frequently, and readjusted as necessary_. I have driven my TC at > freeway speeds, using just one hand on the wheel, with no trouble > whatsoever. Yes, the Bishop box does wear, but frequent lubing and > adjustment will slow that process. There are several fixes for the > box, > none of which are in my car-----sleeved, bored out, needle bearings, > built up or new sector shaft, etc. About the only thing I use is the > Tompkins kit -- it is very easy to adjust-----adding or removing shims > is a pain, but does work. If the Bishop box in your car is beyond > repair, find a good used one----they are out there----probably from > the > same guys that converted to something else. > > Barney Jackson > TC 6110 > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[david thoumine]

Well said Murray One of the reasons why I converted my TC to Datsun box was the thought of playing chicken with a Kenworth pulling three or four which is in excess of 100 tonne at 100km per hour no thanks. Dave T Down Under TC 7732 and loving it.

[Ron Simon]

Hi all! just want to put my $.02 in. I have no idea what driving a "new" TC with a BC box was like. I bought my first TC a'48 in 1953. It ran well for a worn out used car. I drove it for work and pleasure, painted it, showed it, and finally prepared it for racing in 1958. I raced it for 5 years,learned a lot about rear axles,never did anything about the BC steering except adjusting it. Replaced the front wheel spindles after they failed crack testing.Did a roll bar test at Santa Barbara in'61.Stopped racing end of '63. Acquired current TC as basket case in '79, put it together in'89 and have been driving it since. Its original BC box and steering ass'y. now sits in the corner of my garage. After driving another TC with a Datsun box I had to have one. I bought just the Datsun box and built the rest myself. The steering now feels safe at speed. I have heard that a properly prepared BC box,(whatever that is),is perfectly adequate. But how do you account for 60+ years of aged inferior metals Has the worm been replaced, how about the sector shaft and pin. Has the casting been machined and sleeved or just weakened. We have taken the TC twice to England for extended GRAB tours.The last tour had 12 Tc's. On that tour one of our group had the misfortune to have his sector shaft suddenly come apart. We were traveling through the mountains in Wales on our way to the Royal Goat Hotel in Beddgelert,Gwynedd.We were in a pass that had a drop off on one side and the mountain on the other. Fortunately just after it happened we came across and open area and Frank was able to coast his TC to a stop. After Towing the TC to the hotel we found that the top of the shaft had come apart. One of our local friends touring with us borrowed the hotel managers car and drove 400 miles home and back that night to get a spare shaft that he had in his garage. On another time while getting ready to depart from our yearly conclave meeting in Santa Maria another one of our members had the ball that attached the drop arm to the drag link break just as she started moving. Fortunately somebody had a spare. Can't blame this on the BC box. Just to throw fuel on the fire did you know that steering a TC with a BC box is 1 3/4 turns side to side. I understand with a TA it is 1 1/2 turns. With my Datsun box it is 2 1/2 turns. Don't know what it is with a VW box. The only time that I really noticed this difference was driving twisty B and lesser roads in England.Ron Simon

[Joanne and Dominic Crawley]

Hi All, Here's a simple way to crudely test your stub axles for cracks. Back in the 60's I crewed for a friend who raced a TC . We developed this method after losing a left front wheel due to stub axle failure. Jack the car up, remove the wheel, remove the brake drum, remove the hub and bearing, clean the stub axle making sure it's grease free and dry, and thread the bearing nut back on. Now hammer firmly and rapidly on the nut with your copper knock- off hammer. Brake lining dust will rain down on the stub axle. If it is cracked the dust will gather at the crack in a line along the path of the crack. If the stub axle is fine the dust will simply fall randomly on it. Hold your breath or wear a mask while doing this. This is a trackside method only and not a substitute for magnafluxing. Dominic Crawley.TC 5057 Special

On Oct 26, 2009, at 2:27 AM, Ron Simon wrote: > Hi all! just want to put my $.02 in. I have no idea what driving a > "new" TC with a BC box was like. I bought my first TC a'48 in 1953. > It ran well for a worn out used car. I drove it for work and > pleasure, painted it, showed it, and finally prepared it for > racing in 1958. I raced it for 5 years,learned a lot about rear > axles,never did anything about the BC steering except adjusting it. > Replaced the front wheel spindles after they failed crack > testing.Did a roll bar test at Santa Barbara in'61.Stopped racing > end of '63. Acquired current TC as basket case in '79, put it > together in'89 and have been driving it since. Its original BC box > and steering ass'y. now sits in the corner of my garage. After > driving another TC with a Datsun box I had to have one. I bought > just the Datsun box and built the rest myself. The steering now > feels safe at speed. I have heard that a properly prepared BC box, > (whatever that is),is perfectly adequate. But how do you account > for 60+ years of aged inferior metals Has the worm been replaced, > how about the sector shaft and pin. Has the casting been machined > and sleeved or just weakened. > We have taken the TC twice to England for extended GRAB tours.The > last tour had 12 Tc's. On that tour one of our group had the > misfortune to have his sector shaft suddenly come apart. We were > traveling through the mountains in Wales on our way to the Royal > Goat Hotel in Beddgelert,Gwynedd.We were in a pass that had a drop > off on one side and the mountain on the other. Fortunately just > after it happened we came across and open area and Frank was able > to coast his TC to a stop. After Towing the TC to the hotel we > found that the top of the shaft had come apart. One of our local > friends touring with us borrowed the hotel managers car and drove > 400 miles home and back that night to get a spare shaft that he had > in his garage. On another time while getting ready to depart from > our yearly conclave meeting in Santa Maria another one of our > members had the ball that attached the drop arm to the drag link > break just as she started moving. Fortunately somebody had a spare. > Can't blame this on the BC box. > Just to throw fuel on the fire did you know that steering a TC with > a BC box is 1 3/4 turns side to side. I understand with a TA it is > 1 1/2 turns. With my Datsun box it is 2 1/2 turns. Don't know what > it is with a VW box. The only time that I really noticed this > difference was driving twisty B and lesser roads in England.Ron Simon > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[D&J Edgar]

Here is a new one on me. A TC owner was wondering about a steering modification done on his old TC. He has since sold the TC and bought another so description very sketchy to say the least. Back in probably the early 60s, an old time mechanic at Auto-Sport in the LA area told him that he had a modification he could do to the TC to make it steer better. The mechanic said the steering geometry was basically wrong on the TC and the modification would fix it. He believes the left and right steering arms were heated and re-bent but is not positive. The TC did steer better. The current owner (and in England) had someone quite familiar with TCs drive it and commented that it was one of the best steering TCs he has ever driven. One thing that is for certain is that the rod linkage attaching to the steering arms are now on the bottom rather than the top (as was original). Just to be clear, when I say steering arms I am referring to the arms that bolt to the steering knuckles and the tie rods mount on. Has anyone else has heard of this modification? My theory is that the arms were bent up which would in effect increase the measurement (lengthen) from steering knuckle centerline to the tie rods. This would bring the tie rods closer to the pan though so the reason for mounting the tie rods below the arms. I have asked for some photos that might show the arm profiles but not holding my breath. The TC is currently owned by Trevor Minett in England. That is all I know. He does not appear to be associated with this list but perhaps someone over there knows him and can look at the car. David Edgar, TC 5108 El Cajon, California [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Bentley Lodge Goulburn]

This could be a modification based on the Ackerman principle. This relates to the usual arrangement where steering arms not being parallel so that when the wheels are turned the wheels compensate for the different radii of the two circles they track. There is (or was) a theory in racing circles that anti Ackerman was advantageous because the slip angle of the outside wheel was greater due to the weight transfer to that side, therefore a greater angle was required to overcome the slip relative to the unloaded wheel. On that basis the benefits would only be realized under severe cornering conditions and could possibly make it appear worse at more normal speeds. This was around when I was racing Formula Fords on production radial tyres in the late 70s early 80s. Gos -----Original Message----- From: mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of D&J Edgar Sent: Tuesday, 3 August 2010 8:04 AM To: TABC Subject: [mg-tabc] TC Steering Here is a new one on me. A TC owner was wondering about a steering modification done on his old TC. He has since sold the TC and bought another so description very sketchy to say the least. Back in probably the early 60s, an old time mechanic at Auto-Sport in the LA area told him that he had a modification he could do to the TC to make it steer better. The mechanic said the steering geometry was basically wrong on the TC and the modification would fix it. He believes the left and right steering arms were heated and re-bent but is not positive. The TC did steer better. The current owner (and in England) had someone quite familiar with TCs drive it and commented that it was one of the best steering TCs he has ever driven. One thing that is for certain is that the rod linkage attaching to the steering arms are now on the bottom rather than the top (as was original). Just to be clear, when I say steering arms I am referring to the arms that bolt to the steering knuckles and the tie rods mount on. Has anyone else has heard of this modification? My theory is that the arms were bent up which would in effect increase the measurement (lengthen) from steering knuckle centerline to the tie rods. This would bring the tie rods closer to the pan though so the reason for mounting the tie rods below the arms. I have asked for some photos that might show the arm profiles but not holding my breath. The TC is currently owned by Trevor Minett in England. That is all I know. He does not appear to be associated with this list but perhaps someone over there knows him and can look at the car. David Edgar, TC 5108 El Cajon, California [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]