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last ten years before I retired and was careful to train my customers as to what was acceptable. Many people think that feigning abusive behavior is a useful way to interact but I find that the steady barrage of negatives and name calling become depressing. I used to explain this to customers, some of whom would state that "it's only kidding". My response was that I had to operate on two levels when interacting on that basis: 1) I had to assume that there was some level of perceived "truth" in the insult or name labeling. 2) I had to assume that the person was kidding on some level. As I tried to explain it, here's the problem for me: I have to assume that there is a high degree of seriousness in the insult but I have to pretend as though it is nearly 100% kidding. This forces me to walk a fine line in trying to work out how they think the negative applies (i.e. that I'm cheating them or lying), but to project that it's all just joking. If I operate on the basis that it's 100% serious or 100% kidding, problems are almost certain to result. This drives me nuts and also makes it difficult to concentrate fully on finding the best solution for their needs. Over a bit of time, and repeating many times to some, the communication gradually shifted until people were asking how my wife was feeling, whether my son won his soccer game, talking about their weekend or their daughter's dance recital. We were holding dialogue at a level which showed respect, concern and shared interest in each other's welfare. I really wonder if these "flipping you off" types have spend 3 seconds thinking about their actions and whether these actions/behaviors are likely to develop the outcomes desired? Individual cultures operate quite differently from one another and it's amazing how well some of us can shift gears seamlessly. I've interacted with some service people (keep in mind I'm over 65) who would use brutal language between one another but would crush any sort of coarse language being uttered in the presence of an elderly person, woman or child. I respected their principles but always have thought that they might have been better advised to deal with one another on a more directly respectful manner. They knew the rules, never stepped over the line of offending someone else, so not my issue. I like Sam Harris approach to a definition of morality which is along the lines of something which improves the lives of sentient beings. Wish I could articulate it more accurately.... Norm ------ Original Message ------ From: "mark ward" To: "
DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com" DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com>; "Norm Keller" Sent: 2014-09-01 11:39:13 AM Subject: Re: [DSN_KLR650] Re: OLD AGE?? (NKLR)
Big question, Was he "Flipping you off" OR
Now days even among friends the of the nicest groups, entertainers, etc etc. Giving someone the finger, (WHILE THE SAME WORDS ARE BEHIND THE SYMBOL.) is a positive thing.
The "norm" of today seems to be, HOW CRUDE & NASTY, CAN YOU BE.
I TOTALLY DO NOT LIKE IT.
I'm U.S. Navy Vet., (As kids we all heard about Sailors & Swearing. LOL) Carnie (Carnival) Veteran (6yrs. 70's & 80's still dabble) Raised in Flint & Detriot & Chicago, (& NC mountains, 1/2 Hillbilly) needed to leave home at 16 1/2, (On the streets, & bars alot in my youth) etc etc. All the areas the average people consider, "LOW PLACES" & PEOPLE So I am FAR from being self righteous about life styles.
Yet I have to shake my head about todays standard "values" & "morals"
On Monday, September 1, 2014 12:50 PM, "'Norm Keller' normkel32@... [DSN_KLR650]" DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
When peoples' behaviors cross a certain line, I begin to wonder about their rationality so often broach the subject to hear what others think. For some reason I seem not to be able to articulate my point clearly which seems to often take the discussion into another direction but will try again because I really care to hear what others think. When one encounters a total stranger, one has little idea as to their motives or attitudes so it is very difficult to predict their reactions. This is why creatures are generally either cautious or openly aggressive when encountering a stranger. A problem with open aggression in a civilized society is that the consequences of aggression tend to be very high. Let's take the Harley rider incident to the primeval: he offered significant provocation (single digit) to a total stranger. What might have been your reaction? Unknown. Within the scope of reported and possible reactions might be that you are extremely violent, unstable and volatile, right? How could he conclude otherwise? Let's say that you weren't on your medication, pursued, overcame and tortured him for an extended period. Possible? Would a rational person see the upside of that not happening as a balance to the downside? Hard to say but doesn't work for me. Let's say that you burst into tears and decided to end your life because you were so devastated by his cruelty and were motivated to open the throttle to take him with you? Irrational? Yes, but less rational than provoking a total stranger...you decide. Social groups of creatures tend to develop a "moral" code because it lubricates the interactions between members of the group. Pressure is applied to individuals who act outside the boundaries of the "moral" code in order to maintain the group. These "moral" codes often differ between members of different tribes/troops which brings individuals from separate tribes/groups into conflict when they encounter one another because the message conveyed by signals may be opposite to that intended. Could he be conveying, "I love you and think your bike is the best thing ever."? Maybe but unlikely since he is also part of the larger society. Another side of that incident is that he cannot expect that you will not encounter each other in future. Might you be the person who just bought the business which employs him? Maybe you are the owner of their largest customer and drop their account when you recognize him later? What's the upside for him of provoking you? A fleeting feeling of power/superiority from a psychopathic act? Maybe but how important can that be to a rational person, even a psychopathic one? The peer group would not appear to be much of a factor there because you suggest that he was alone. Easy to say, "He's just an idiot!", but there must be some motivation involved so I continue to wonder what that might be......
------ Original Message ------ From: "GMac" To: DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com; "Norm Keller" Sent: 2014-08-21 10:03:06 AM Subject: RE: [DSN_KLR650] Re: OLD AGE?? (NKLR) I do wonder about the head space of guys like the ones you met, though. Let's set aside the polite social conventions and simply assume that I was one of those guys on the road side and I didn't care a bit about you or whether you were offended. So, what I'm saying is if I were completely self absorbed and didn't care all all excepting for myself, how should I proceed? It would seem that I would be better off to pretend that I did care about you so as to be more likely to get you to help me if I needed it. I would be better off in waiting for you to leave before making fun of you to try to enhance my status in the eyes of my buddies. From my perspective, people like that are simply too stupid for words. When I encounter them, I refuse to do anything to help them, saving not allowing them to die. I just leave because helping them after a reaction like that seems likely to reward that sort of behavior, IMO. My favorites are the friend of a friend on a ride who makes fun of me for carrying extra stuff, then later asks to borrow the same items which they ridiculed me for carrying. My response is always, "No, you can't borrow it. You were right in saying that only a stupid person would carry all that crap but I'm learning. I'm not going to throw it away so let's just pretend it doesn't exist." I stick to that and will not bend. Here's a straw poll for all of you who are over 50: "Are you becoming more patient or less patient as you get older?" For me it is less patient.