???f fixed ??? (was "high rpm miss .......... any updates???

[James W. Flower]

Mr. Bill- Unfortunately, no. Not much population here on the far northern coast of California. Thanks for the suggestion. -James

On Jun 18, 2014, at 9:29 PM, "bmrbill@... [DSN_KLR650]" DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com> wrote: > Mark Ward, > +1 This new email system has me confused. As for the issue at hand, and I hope I'm replying to the group, or at least to James. I'm an old school NAVAIR tech. So I have to ask, "Is there anyone close that you could swap parts with to try and narrow down the problem?"

[RobertWichert]

Gimmee an O Gimme an S Gimmee a C Gimmee an O Gimmee a P Gimmee an E What's that spell? O'Scope! Robert Wichert P.Eng. LEED AP BD&C HERS I/II CEPE CEA BPI CERTIFIED SF/MF GREEN POINT RATER +1 916 966 9060 FAX +1 916 966 9068 ===============================================

On 6/18/2014 9:29 PM, bmrbill@... [DSN_KLR650] wrote:

Mark Ward, +1 This new email system has me confused. As for the issue at hand, and I hope I'm replying to the group, or at least to James. I'm an old school NAVAIR tech. So I have to ask, "Is there anyone close that you could swap parts with to try and narrow down the problem?"

[James W. Flower]

OK Robert, since you insist on injecting science into all this lovely conjecture, I will see if the local shops have an "o'scope" and know how to use it.

[Paul Whatley]

I'll add.... Robert, My dad and I built a Heathkit oscilloscope when I was in H.S. I acquired one in the last few years for nothing at an estate sale that was the same model but built by the mfg. I need to get a probe..... I understand how to interpret wave forms to a degree, e.g., alternator output,  AC, DC, pulsating DC, square wave, etc. But can you direct me to a website or other source on how to diagnose ignition or other KLR issues with a scope? I'm not having such issues for now but would like to have some knowledge of that in my repertoire. Also has anybody converted a KLR to fuel injection aside from the diesel bikes? Paul Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 19, 2014, at 3:42 AM, "'James W. Flower' jwflower53@... [DSN_KLR650]" DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

  OK Robert, since you insist on injecting science into all this lovely conjecture, I will see if the local shops have an "o'scope" and know how to use it.

[bfargusson1]

mrbill

Have you checked the end of your new vent tube.  We have mud dobbers here in northern California that will fill any quarter inch hole they find anywhere.

Good Luck

Bill Fargusson

Upper Lake Ca

[James W. Flower]

Bill, the vent line is clear, but thanks. Every time a fellow lister gives me a tip I learn something. I'm NW of you, on the coast of far northern Cali in Humboldt Co. We have yellow jackets and bald-faced hornets, but I've never seen a mud dauber or its nest. I suspect the weather's too cool for 'em. James

[Norm Keller]

I'll offer this brief series of anecdotes to see if there is more interest/information forthcoming. Likely everyone here knows at least this much so only offering this as a starting point for discussion.

 

I've done some scope patterns on the KLR but can't find so plan to record another sample. If you do get to the project, I'd appreciate exchanging information. The patterns are generally quite straight forward I find as one can generally assume from the pattern whether it is a likely good or bad one. Bad ones generally have abrupt breaks and excursions. That's what I see from outboards, bikes and such.

 

Alternator patterns (stator AC before VRR) are an overlapping sine wave. Ignition secondary voltage shows a horizontal line followed by a vertical rise to the voltage required to fire the plug, followed by a short, almost horizontal spark section, then a small upward bump in voltage, and then a drop to below zero, ending in oscillations which diminish to zero. Repeating.

 

They are quite typical patterns so should be able to find on line examples.

 

An EBay probe works fine for my purposes. For secondary, I use a purpose built pick up which came with my scope. My other scope is a conventional lab scope but works well with the pick up from an old automotive secondary tachometer or timing light. I have several, some of which work with the scope and others don't but haven't explored why.

[Martin Earl]

James,I can loan you a coil and CDI if you think that will help.Let me know.martinearl.

On Wed, Jun 18, 2014 at 3:42 PM, 'James W. Flower' jwflower53@... [DSN_KLR650] DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com> wrote: Mark- 1. I could switch the order of the plug wire's resistor, but the miss was there before I took it apart, and it's still there, so the order of those parts can't be the problem. 2. The miss was there when the (stock) vacuum petcock was installed, and it's still there after installing the gravity feed petcock mod. 3. Can't tell from the "bang" test that anything's loose in the muffler. But I should say that it's an aftermarket muffler, a LEXX, which ran fine for many miles before the miss appeared. -James On Jun 15, 2014, at 4:14 AM, mark ward wrote: Over 20+ years as a service tech, (diesel mech. in Navy, Machine repair, HVAC, Plumbing, Home & commercial appliance repair. AUTO & BIKES JUST HOBBY) I learned some times you have to stop, take a breath, and SEPERATE EVERYTHING in your head, Sometimes you can have a "COINCIDENCE" in timing. you repair 1 thing and the unit starts doing something else wrong SO YOU TAKE IT FOR GRANTED IT'S DO TO WHAT YOU DID. NOT ALWAY'S, BUT OFTEN IS, (just about everyone has moved a lamp re-plugged it in, and the bulb blows the second you turn it on. THAT was just Timing, but our 1st thought is what did I! do wrong. OK, lets start slow, breaking down each step. STARTING WITH FREE TO CHEAP to $$! (check 1&3 before running for a new hose, but I would lay better odd's on the hose them Muffler. and even if the muffler rattles still, the hose is CHEAP P.M.S.) FREE1. You mentioned a Resistor spring & screw, when you talked about spark plug & die-electric grease. And possibly, putting on in wrong order? you can often pull up a schematic threw dealers parts pages, to see a picture of them in order. Cheap. ($0.50- $2.) 2.Did you check / replace the Vacuum line from the petcock to the carb? The higher the RPMs the stronger the vacuum, AND as it WARMS UP. it gets softer, and MAY, collapse. (like sucking on a thick milkshake threw cheap straw, it collapses restricking flow even more.) FREE TEST (at first) 3. take your fist and bang on the Muffler, to see if you hear any rattle INSIDE. (IF! a baffle is loose it "MAY" Restrict full air flow.) On Sunday, June 15, 2014 2:24 AM, "'James W. Flower' jwflower53@... [DSN_KLR650]" DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com> wrote: Mark, thanks for asking. I'm playing with this in my spare time (work is the curse of the cycling class), learning a lot about the machine but not resolving the problem. Still have the miss. It first started on the freeway home from a very dusty, hot weather ride. The miss starts within two miles of when I start cruising at 4800-5000 rpm, whether I'm in 3d, 4th, or 5th. It's almost imperceptible at first, but after 4-5 miles it's bucking like a rodeo bull. Once it starts it keeps missing unless I back off to around 4000. Below that, it's smooth. NEW CLUE: the miss clears up completely when I accelerate, starts in when I level off, as long as I level off at 4500 or faster. Stuff I tried: New air filter (K&N, which I gather is not the best in dirt, but I had it handy). Switched to the gravity feed petcock. Checked fuel flow (one gallon in five minutes). Changed spark plug (the NGK Iridium one, thanks Fred); gap .033-.034". Checked plug wire resistor. Trimmed plug wire (just on general principles, it looked fine), dialectric-greased it. (I put the resistor back in first, then the little spring, then the screw; maybe it's supposed to be spring-resistor-screw, but the way I did it seems to work fine.) Replaced CDI unit (on a hunch, and because the consensus seems to be that the test drill in Clymer's is non-dispositive). Checked diode unit. Checked ignition coil. Checked exciter coil. Checked pickup coil. I bought another (used) diode unit ($10), but haven't put it in, having no reason to think that's really the problem. I guess I'll try that next though. One local mechanic thinks it's the valves. Though they're a tad overdue for adjustment, I'm getting none of the symptoms of too-tightness I've read about here. And though I can't recall his explanation well enough to repeat it, it didn't sound plausible at the time. I did a half-assed check of the carb, which looked fine, no clogged jets or other obvious problems. I don't know if it matters, but I got curious about what throttle positions I was in when the miss happens. At 5000 rpm in 5th I'm at 3/8 throttle, and at 5000 in 4th I'm at 5/16. I may pull the carb off and do a more thorough check, but the consensus seems to be that the problem's electrical. I bought a timing light and will check the timing but I don't see how that could be it. So the doctor tells the patient, "There's good news and bad news. The good news is, they've named a new disease after you...". Aagh! -James

[RobertWichert]

Regarding reading the waveforms...  The hard part is superimposing the primary over the secondary, I think, but once you have that properly scaled, it's seeing if the primary is breaking up or the secondary, or more likely both, which indicates problems on the primary, I believe.  The shop will know more. You "might" be able to watch the exciter too.   Bring them a wiring diagram if you have one! Robert P. Wichert P.Eng. LEED AP BD&CHERS I & HERS IICEPE & CEA RES & NON-RES +1 916 966 9060FAX +1 916 966 9068

On Jun 19, 2014, at 5:58 AM, "Paul Whatley pwhatfourever@... [DSN_KLR650]" DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

  I'll add.... Robert, My dad and I built a Heathkit oscilloscope when I was in H.S. I acquired one in the last few years for nothing at an estate sale that was the same model but built by the mfg. I need to get a probe..... I understand how to interpret wave forms to a degree, e.g., alternator output,  AC, DC, pulsating DC, square wave, etc. But can you direct me to a website or other source on how to diagnose ignition or other KLR issues with a scope? I'm not having such issues for now but would like to have some knowledge of that in my repertoire. Also has anybody converted a KLR to fuel injection aside from the diesel bikes? Paul Sent from my iPhone On Jun 19, 2014, at 3:42 AM, "'James W. Flower' jwflower53@... [DSN_KLR650]" DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com> wrote:   OK Robert, since you insist on injecting science into all this lovely conjecture, I will see if the local shops have an "o'scope" and know how to use it.

[Norm Keller]

Robert, what shop are you referencing which will know more about wave forms? Just wishing for clarification.

 

Oscilloscopes have never been popular in the motorcycle repair industry, so far as I know. I've never seen one in a bike shop or heard of other than very exceptional use. The automotive repair has used ignition oscilloscopes for 40+ years, IME but their use has dropped to almost zero because ignition components are so much better. In addition, on-board diagnostics usually provide sufficient information.

 

'scopes in the automotive repair have moved to testing of sensors and, to some degree, outputs from modules. Heavy equipment, heavy truck, ag. have not used 'scopes traditionally. I think it has been more a matter of custom based on the fact that automotive techs were more accustomed to 'scopes because of the ignition application which didn't apply to the other areas which were almost exclusively diesel.

 

These days anyone can own a basic lab scope which connects to a PC by USB although one with ignition pick-up capability is more expensive. I always chuckle when bike groups get onto 'scope use because it usually turns out that those of us who have long experience in 'scope use for bike servicing are those with the least knowledge of the subject. I fit that pattern so am always eager to learn and to test my conclusions.