arches/moab camping advice

[Mark Harfenist]

To say that Mexico is unsafe and no one should go there is just silly, akin to saying that the USA is unsafe because you saw school, movie theater or military base shootings on the news.  To say that "the problem" is that you can't carry firearms there is even sillier.   Thousands of riders from the USA and all over the world ride in Mexico every year without incident.  I've been one of them, for months at a time. This particular rider was on his own in a famously strife-ridden area, and by all indications was way over his head there.  It would be fair to say that riders shouldn't blunder around blindly in the parts of Michoac n or Guererro where narcotraficantes are currently battling it out with both federal (military) authorities and unofficial (local militia and vigilante) groups .and that if doing so one shouldn't accept "military escorts" of unknown and unknowable provenance. It would also be fair to say that when riding internationally riders should stay alert and bear in mind that language and cultural issues often prevent them from getting accurate reads on whatever situations might arise.   For what it's worth, I liked riding in Venezuela, too--a wonderful, friendly, beautiful and fascinating place.   enjoy, Mark  Mon Feb 24, 2014 12:05 pm (PST) . Posted by:robert@...?subject=Re%3A%20KLR%20rider%20missing%20in%20Mexico>Problem is, you can't carry firearms in Mexico, especially if you are 

>not a Mexican citizen. And all the bad guys are armed. >Best to stay away unless in a tourist zone, and even then, it's iffy.

[RobertWichert]

You're right Mark. It's all about location. In Caracas even the locals are frightened in public. Ever been there? Robert Wichert P.Eng. LEED AP BD&C +1 916 966 9060 FAX +1 916 966 9068 ===============================================

On 2/25/2014 8:42 AM, Mark Harfenist wrote:

To say that Mexico is unsafe and no one should go there is just silly, akin to saying that the USA is unsafe because you saw school, movie theater or military base shootings on the news. To say that "the problem" is that you can't carry firearms there is even sillier. Thousands of riders from the USA and all over the world ride in Mexico every year without incident. I've been one of them, for months at a time. This particular rider was on his own in a famously strife-ridden area, and by all indications was way over his head there. It would be fair to say that riders shouldn't blunder around blindly in the parts of Michoac n or Guererro where narcotraficantes are currently battling it out with both federal (military) authorities and unofficial (local militia and vigilante) groups .and that if doing so one shouldn't accept "military escorts" of unknown and unknowable provenance. It would also be fair to say that when riding internationally riders should stay alert and bear in mind that language and cultural issues often prevent them from getting accurate reads on whatever situations might arise. For what it's worth, I liked riding in Venezuela, too--a wonderful, friendly, beautiful and fascinating place. enjoy, Mark Mon Feb 24, 2014 12:05 pm (PST) . Posted by: robert@...?subject=Re%3A%20KLR%20rider%20missing%20in%20Mexico >Problem is, you can't carry firearms in Mexico, especially if you are >not a Mexican citizen. And all the bad guys are armed. >Best to stay away unless in a tourist zone, and even then, it's iffy.

[Michael Jacobsen]

Hello Mark,

I totally agree with your comments. If you go to the rough part of town on a Saturday night in any large city in the US or Canada there is a greater likelihood trouble will find you even though you are not looking for trouble.

I have never been to Mexico but I lived in Papua New Guinea for seven years. Even though the Capital of Port Morseby is deemed to be one of the most dangerous cities in the world I was able to avoid being a victim of the endemic crime that is so common place there. In my view "situation awareness" is absolutely the most important quality or trait that a traveler needs to rely on when visiting unfamiliar places. And a quick note on guns; in my view guns will get you into deeper trouble and jeopardize your well-being faster than not having one. (leave your guns at home son, don't take your guns to town)

Ride safe.

Mike

[RobertWichert]

Situational awareness is useless if you are outnumbered.  Just sayin'. Robert Wichert P.Eng. LEED AP BD&C +1 916 966 9060 FAX +1 916 966 9068 ===============================================

On 2/25/2014 9:51 AM, Michael Jacobsen wrote:

  Hello Mark, I totally agree with your comments. If you go to the rough part of town on a Saturday night in any large city in the US or Canada there is a greater likelihood trouble will find you even though you are not looking for trouble. I have never been to Mexico but I lived in Papua New Guinea for seven years. Even though the Capital of Port Morseby is deemed to be one of the most dangerous cities in the world I was able to avoid being a victim of the endemic crime that is so common place there. In my view "situation awareness" is absolutely the most important quality or trait that a traveler needs to rely on when visiting unfamiliar places. And a quick note on guns; in my view guns will get you into deeper trouble and jeopardize your well-being faster than not having one. (leave your guns at home son, don't take your guns to town) Ride safe. Mike    

[Mark Harfenist]

Hi Robert, I skipped Caracas, as I generally do with Developing World capital cities.  Then again, I do the same with large cities throughout North America unless I've got  good reasons to do otherwise (friends, professional need, or paychecks, mostly).  Had some Venezuelan riders visit me here last summer and they spent all their time marveling at the way our kids aren't trailed by bodyguards .but I noted when I visited them in San Cristobal a couple of years ago that they'd done very, very well by the Venezuelan economy despite their many complaints.  Mostly it's how you look at things.   enjoy, Mark  [b]From:[/b] RobertWichert [b]To:[/b] Mark Harfenist ; "DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com" DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com> [b]Sent:[/b] Tuesday, February 25, 2014 9:27 AM [b]Subject:[/b] Re: [DSN_KLR650] Re: KLR rider missing in Mexico You're right Mark.  It's all about location.  In Caracas even the locals are frightened in public.  Ever been there? Robert Wichert P.Eng. LEED AP BD&C +1 916 966 9060 FAX +1 916 966 9068 ===============================================

On 2/25/2014 8:42 AM, Mark Harfenist wrote:

  To say that Mexico is unsafe and no one should go there is just silly, akin to saying that the USA is unsafe because you saw school, movie theater or military base shootings on the news.  To say that "the problem" is that you can't carry firearms there is even sillier.   Thousands of riders from the USA and all over the world ride in Mexico every year without incident.  I've been one of them, for months at a time. This particular rider was on his own in a famously strife-ridden area, and by all indications was way over his head there.  It would be fair to say that riders shouldn't blunder around blindly in the parts of Michoac n or Guererro where narcotraficantes are currently battling it out with both federal (military) authorities and unofficial (local militia and vigilante) groups .and that if doing so one shouldn't accept "military escorts" of unknown and unknowable provenance. It would also be fair to say that when riding internationally riders should stay alert and bear in mind that language and cultural issues often prevent them from getting accurate reads on whatever situations might arise.   For what it's worth, I liked riding in Venezuela, too--a wonderful, friendly, beautiful and fascinating place.   enjoy, Mark  Mon Feb 24, 2014 12:05 pm (PST) . Posted by: robert@...?subject=Re%3A%20KLR%20rider%20missing%20in%20Mexico >Problem is, you can't carry firearms in Mexico, especially if you are  >not a Mexican citizen. 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[Bogdan Swider]

I guess I'm just "silly". I've traveled by motorcycle from Colorado to Central America 3 times. I've ridden into Mexico - Guanajuato, Veracruz etc. - a number of times in addition. I've taken groups of students for a month long stay in Baja where we camped in various places ..I could go on. Oh yeah .I speak Spanish. FWIW ..I grew up in a dangerous neighborhood in Chicago where I was robbed at gunpoint in front of my house. Therefore . when I was robbed at gunpoint in Sonora, it wasn't the first time. These mis-adventures didn't cause me to leave my part of Chicago or keep me from returning to Mexico.    I strongly object to the tone of the post below and what conclusions may be taken from it.   Sorry it is more dangerous south of the Rio Grande/Bravo then it used to be. One example of many I know : An old friend is from a village in the center of Chihuahua. He used to drive From Colorado Springs to there; now, because of lawlessness,  he leaves his truck in El Paso and takes a bus the rest of the way. Would I motorcycle into/through Mexico again ? Yes, carefully, if I had a reason. However, saying that avoiding dangerous areas in the US is no different than avoiding harm in a foreign country is not true. Also implying  that by avoiding states with dangerous reputations,  staying alert and culturally aware you will guaranty safety is not true.  I've never carried  firearms in Mexico but I don't know what the gratuitous comment on feeling safer if one could, legally,  being " even sillier " is based on. I'm writing because I'm afraid inexperienced people  will get a wrong impression. Bogdan From: Mark Harfenist Reply-To: Mark Harfenist Date: Tuesday, February 25, 2014 9:42 AM To: "DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com" DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com> Subject: [DSN_KLR650] Re: KLR rider missing in Mexico   To say that Mexico is unsafe and no one should go there is just silly, akin to saying that the USA is unsafe because you saw school, movie theater or military base shootings on the news.  To say that "the problem" is that you can't carry firearms there is even sillier.   Thousands of riders from the USA and all over the world ride in Mexico every year without incident.  I've been one of them, for months at a time. This particular rider was on his own in a famously strife-ridden area, and by all indications was way over his head there.  It would be fair to say that riders shouldn't blunder around blindly in the parts of Michoac n or Guererro where narcotraficantes are currently battling it out with both federal (military) authorities and unofficial (local militia and vigilante) groups .and that if doing so one shouldn't accept "military escorts" of unknown and unknowable provenance. It would also be fair to say that when riding internationally riders should stay alert and bear in mind that language and cultural issues often prevent them from getting accurate reads on whatever situations might arise.   For what it's worth, I liked riding in Venezuela, too--a wonderful, friendly, beautiful and fascinating place.   enjoy, Mark  Mon Feb 24, 2014 12:05 pm (PST) . Posted by: robert@...?subject=Re%3A%20KLR%20rider%20missing%20in%20Mexico

>Problem is, you can't carry firearms in Mexico, especially if you are  >not a Mexican citizen. And all the bad guys are armed. >Best to stay away unless in a tourist zone, and even then, it's iffy.

[Mark Harfenist]

I didn't say any of that.  Seriously.  I didn't say it's not more dangerous than it used to be.  I didn't say your friend shouldn't leave his truck in El Paso if he wants.  I didn't say avoiding places in the States is "no different" from avoiding harm in another country.  I didn't "imply" that anything anyone might do can "guaranty [sic]" safety.  Hell, I didn't even say anything about whether anyone ought to feel "safer" if carrying a gun; I said that it's silly to view this as "the problem," which is what the previous poster had stated.    I'm happy to read alternate points of view--particularly from people with direct experience.  If you'd rather not respond to what I actually wrote, that's your privilege. But if you're going to read all sorts of extraneous stuff into what I say, I guess we're all wasting our time here.   Safe journeys all! Mark  [b]From:[/b] Bogdan Swider [b]To:[/b] Mark Harfenist ; "DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com" DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com> [b]Sent:[/b] Tuesday, February 25, 2014 12:15 PM [b]Subject:[/b] Re: [DSN_KLR650] Re: KLR rider missing in Mexico I guess I'm just "silly". I've traveled by motorcycle from Colorado to Central America 3 times. I've ridden into Mexico - Guanajuato, Veracruz etc. - a number of times in addition. I've taken groups of students for a month long stay in Baja where we camped in various places ..I could go on. Oh yeah .I speak Spanish. FWIW ..I grew up in a dangerous neighborhood in Chicago where I was robbed at gunpoint in front of my house. Therefore . when I was robbed at gunpoint in Sonora, it wasn't the first time. These mis-adventures didn't cause me to leave my part of Chicago or keep me from returning to Mexico.    I strongly object to the tone of the post below and what conclusions may be taken from it.   Sorry it is more dangerous south of the Rio Grande/Bravo then it used to be. One example of many I know : An old friend is from a village in the center of Chihuahua. He used to drive From Colorado Springs to there; now, because of lawlessness,  he leaves his truck in El Paso and takes a bus the rest of the way. Would I motorcycle into/through Mexico again ? Yes, carefully, if I had a reason. However, saying that avoiding dangerous areas in the US is no different than avoiding harm in a foreign country is not true. Also implying  that by avoiding states with dangerous reputations,  staying alert and culturally aware you will guaranty safety is not true.  I've never carried  firearms in Mexico but I don't know what the gratuitous comment on feeling safer if one could, legally,  being " even sillier " is based on. I'm writing because I'm afraid inexperienced people  will get a wrong impression. Bogdan

From: Mark Harfenist Reply-To: Mark Harfenist Date: Tuesday, February 25, 2014 9:42 AM To: "DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com" DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com> Subject: [DSN_KLR650] Re: KLR rider missing in Mexico

  To say that Mexico is unsafe and no one should go there is just silly, akin to saying that the USA is unsafe because you saw school, movie theater or military base shootings on the news.  To say that "the problem" is that you can't carry firearms there is even sillier.   Thousands of riders from the USA and all over the world ride in Mexico every year without incident.  I've been one of them, for months at a time. This particular rider was on his own in a famously strife-ridden area, and by all indications was way over his head there.  It would be fair to say that riders shouldn't blunder around blindly in the parts of Michoac n or Guererro where narcotraficantes are currently battling it out with both federal (military) authorities and unofficial (local militia and vigilante) groups .and that if doing so one shouldn't accept "military escorts" of unknown and unknowable provenance. It would also be fair to say that when riding internationally riders should stay alert and bear in mind that language and cultural issues often prevent them from getting accurate reads on whatever situations might arise.   For what it's worth, I liked riding in Venezuela, too--a wonderful, friendly, beautiful and fascinating place.   enjoy, Mark  Mon Feb 24, 2014 12:05 pm (PST) . Posted by: robert@...?subject=Re%3A%20KLR%20rider%20missing%20in%20Mexico >Problem is, you can't carry firearms in Mexico, especially if you are  >not a Mexican citizen. 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[ron criswell]

I used to go to Mexico once or twice a year and rode with 3 others to the bottom of Copper Canyon 11 years ago. But living in Texas, Every Mexican from there I have talked to tell me....don't go now. And I have talked to quite a few usually working on my house. Many of them don't go to see family these days. Read a book called God's Middle Finger about travel in Northern Mexico in the Copper Canyon area and the drug business there. 60 % of the money flowing through Mexico is illegal drug money untaxed according to the author. He had his scary moments researching the book with a couple guys trying to kill him. The last time we went to Cabo, I mentioned to a local I had thought about going to Matzatlan (not far from where the drug king pin was arrested recently). It is just across the Sea of Cortez from Cabo. He told me don't go over there "too many narcos" he said. I too have traveled to Venezuela twice. Angel Falls both trips.....spectacular. Puerto la Cruz, Margarita Island and walked the shopping district called Grand Sabina in Caracas at dusk in 1989. Won't go right now. Haven't been back there since Chavez screwed the country up. Been to Argentina 3 times, Chile once (spectacular), and two days in Rio....all great trips. People asked weren't you scared in Rio "No, we were with a big group on that one." I have also been to Greece.....but wouldn't go now. Rule of thumb for me traveling is if economic conditions and political conditions are in disarray or the drug business is taking over....I don't go. I might go to Columbia now instead of Mexico as it has seemed the drug business has shifted more to Mexico these days. Chile was real stable when we went 6 years ago....but they recently elected a new leftist government....stay tuned. All that said....I always expect to be robbed in New Orleans everytime I go but love the place. The four or five people I know that have robbed by armed gunmen....we're robbed right here in the Dallas area where I live. Been to NYC 3 or 4 times and never have felt threatened....but did feel threatened a couple times in the Virgin Islands. You have to have your danger antennae out anywhere you go. Criswell Sent from my iPad

On Feb 25, 2014, at 2:15 PM, Bogdan Swider wrote:

  I guess I'm just "silly". I've traveled by motorcycle from Colorado to Central America 3 times. I've ridden into Mexico - Guanajuato, Veracruz etc. - a number of times in addition. I've taken groups of students for a month long stay in Baja where we camped in various places ..I could go on. Oh yeah .I speak Spanish. FWIW ..I grew up in a dangerous neighborhood in Chicago where I was robbed at gunpoint in front of my house. Therefore . when I was robbed at gunpoint in Sonora, it wasn't the first time. These mis-adventures didn't cause me to leave my part of Chicago or keep me from returning to Mexico.    I strongly object to the tone of the post below and what conclusions may be taken from it.   Sorry it is more dangerous south of the Rio Grande/Bravo then it used to be. One example of many I know : An old friend is from a village in the center of Chihuahua. He used to drive From Colorado Springs to there; now, because of lawlessness,  he leaves his truck in El Paso and takes a bus the rest of the way. Would I motorcycle into/through Mexico again ? Yes, carefully, if I had a reason. However, saying that avoiding dangerous areas in the US is no different than avoiding harm in a foreign country is not true. Also implying  that by avoiding states with dangerous reputations,  staying alert and culturally aware you will guaranty safety is not true.  I've never carried  firearms in Mexico but I don't know what the gratuitous comment on feeling safer if one could, legally,  being " even sillier " is based on. I'm writing because I'm afraid inexperienced people  will get a wrong impression. Bogdan From: Mark Harfenist Reply-To: Mark Harfenist Date: Tuesday, February 25, 2014 9:42 AM To: "DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com" DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com> Subject: [DSN_KLR650] Re: KLR rider missing in Mexico   To say that Mexico is unsafe and no one should go there is just silly, akin to saying that the USA is unsafe because you saw school, movie theater or military base shootings on the news.  To say that "the problem" is that you can't carry firearms there is even sillier.   Thousands of riders from the USA and all over the world ride in Mexico every year without incident.  I've been one of them, for months at a time. This particular rider was on his own in a famously strife-ridden area, and by all indications was way over his head there.  It would be fair to say that riders shouldn't blunder around blindly in the parts of Michoac n or Guererro where narcotraficantes are currently battling it out with both federal (military) authorities and unofficial (local militia and vigilante) groups .and that if doing so one shouldn't accept "military escorts" of unknown and unknowable provenance. It would also be fair to say that when riding internationally riders should stay alert and bear in mind that language and cultural issues often prevent them from getting accurate reads on whatever situations might arise.   For what it's worth, I liked riding in Venezuela, too--a wonderful, friendly, beautiful and fascinating place.   enjoy, Mark  Mon Feb 24, 2014 12:05 pm (PST) . Posted by: robert@...?subject=Re%3A%20KLR%20rider%20missing%20in%20Mexico >Problem is, you can't carry firearms in Mexico, especially if you are  >not a Mexican citizen. And all the bad guys are armed. >Best to stay away unless in a tourist zone, and even then, it's iffy.

[David Greenberg]

I've lived within 10 miles of Mexico in SE Arizona for 38 years. My family traveled to beach towns regularly until 15 years ago. The odds of being in a conflict have gone up too far to risk it. Contrary to what the government says, the border is not safe and traveling south of the border is less so. Yes, we are all armed here. Sent from my Sprint phone.

[Bogdan Swider]

Written like a man who's been there and done that and is blessed with common sense. As far as avoiding places with economies in disarray, however, I'll give you an exception. For the last 6 years I've been working in Seville, Spain for a month in the Spring. Southern Spain has astronomical unemployment; estimates vary but most say it's at least 40% of the working age population. Walking the streets you'd never know there's a problem; the cafes mostly outdoor are full. The whole place is on a party; they don't go light on the tapas and definitely don't abstain from wine and beer. FWIW no KLRs in Spain a major marketing error, it's exactly the kind of bike the Spanish would buy. Bogdan From: Ron Criswell Date: Tuesday, February 25, 2014 4:35 PM To: Bogdan Swider Cc: Mark Harfenist , "DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com" DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com> Subject: Re: [DSN_KLR650] Re: KLR rider missing in Mexico I used to go to Mexico once or twice a year and rode with 3 others to the bottom of Copper Canyon 11 years ago. But living in Texas, Every Mexican from there I have talked to tell me....don't go now. And I have talked to quite a few usually working on my house. Many of them don't go to see family these days. Read a book called God's Middle Finger about travel in Northern Mexico in the Copper Canyon area and the drug business there. 60 % of the money flowing through Mexico is illegal drug money untaxed according to the author. He had his scary moments researching the book with a couple guys trying to kill him. The last time we went to Cabo, I mentioned to a local I had thought about going to Matzatlan (not far from where the drug king pin was arrested recently). It is just across the Sea of Cortez from Cabo. He told me don't go over there "too many narcos" he said. I too have traveled to Venezuela twice. Angel Falls both trips.....spectacular. Puerto la Cruz, Margarita Island and walked the shopping district called Grand Sabina in Caracas at dusk in 1989. Won't go right now. Haven't been back there since Chavez screwed the country up. Been to Argentina 3 times, Chile once (spectacular), and two days in Rio....all great trips. People asked weren't you scared in Rio "No, we were with a big group on that one." I have also been to Greece.....but wouldn't go now. Rule of thumb for me traveling is if economic conditions and political conditions are in disarray or the drug business is taking over....I don't go. I might go to Columbia now instead of Mexico as it has seemed the drug business has shifted more to Mexico these days. Chile was real stable when we went 6 years ago....but they recently elected a new leftist government....stay tuned. All that said....I always expect to be robbed in New Orleans everytime I go but love the place. The four or five people I know that have robbed by armed gunmen....we're robbed right here in the Dallas area where I live. Been to NYC 3 or 4 times and never have felt threatened....but did feel threatened a couple times in the Virgin Islands. You have to have your danger antennae out anywhere you go. Criswell Sent from my iPad

On Feb 25, 2014, at 2:15 PM, Bogdan Swider wrote:

  I guess I'm just "silly". I've traveled by motorcycle from Colorado to Central America 3 times. I've ridden into Mexico - Guanajuato, Veracruz etc. - a number of times in addition. I've taken groups of students for a month long stay in Baja where we camped in various places ..I could go on. Oh yeah .I speak Spanish. FWIW ..I grew up in a dangerous neighborhood in Chicago where I was robbed at gunpoint in front of my house. Therefore . when I was robbed at gunpoint in Sonora, it wasn't the first time. These mis-adventures didn't cause me to leave my part of Chicago or keep me from returning to Mexico.    I strongly object to the tone of the post below and what conclusions may be taken from it.   Sorry it is more dangerous south of the Rio Grande/Bravo then it used to be. One example of many I know : An old friend is from a village in the center of Chihuahua. He used to drive From Colorado Springs to there; now, because of lawlessness,  he leaves his truck in El Paso and takes a bus the rest of the way. Would I motorcycle into/through Mexico again ? Yes, carefully, if I had a reason. However, saying that avoiding dangerous areas in the US is no different than avoiding harm in a foreign country is not true. Also implying  that by avoiding states with dangerous reputations,  staying alert and culturally aware you will guaranty safety is not true.  I've never carried  firearms in Mexico but I don't know what the gratuitous comment on feeling safer if one could, legally,  being " even sillier " is based on. I'm writing because I'm afraid inexperienced people  will get a wrong impression. Bogdan From: Mark Harfenist Reply-To: Mark Harfenist Date: Tuesday, February 25, 2014 9:42 AM To: "DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com" DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com> Subject: [DSN_KLR650] Re: KLR rider missing in Mexico   To say that Mexico is unsafe and no one should go there is just silly, akin to saying that the USA is unsafe because you saw school, movie theater or military base shootings on the news.  To say that "the problem" is that you can't carry firearms there is even sillier.   Thousands of riders from the USA and all over the world ride in Mexico every year without incident.  I've been one of them, for months at a time. This particular rider was on his own in a famously strife-ridden area, and by all indications was way over his head there.  It would be fair to say that riders shouldn't blunder around blindly in the parts of Michoac n or Guererro where narcotraficantes are currently battling it out with both federal (military) authorities and unofficial (local militia and vigilante) groups .and that if doing so one shouldn't accept "military escorts" of unknown and unknowable provenance. It would also be fair to say that when riding internationally riders should stay alert and bear in mind that language and cultural issues often prevent them from getting accurate reads on whatever situations might arise.   For what it's worth, I liked riding in Venezuela, too--a wonderful, friendly, beautiful and fascinating place.   enjoy, Mark  Mon Feb 24, 2014 12:05 pm (PST) . Posted by: robert@...?subject=Re%3A%20KLR%20rider%20missing%20in%20Mexico >Problem is, you can't carry firearms in Mexico, especially if you are  >not a Mexican citizen. And all the bad guys are armed. >Best to stay away unless in a tourist zone, and even then, it's iffy.