grip heater or jacket controller

[Dennis Johnson]

I have my KLR mounted to a Velorex 562 and ride all winter. Rode today to test out a winter helmet (failed) and new snowmobile suit ( It passed with flying colors). It was minus 2 degrees when I went out today. I have grip heaters and ATV handlebar muffs on the bike so I mostly stay warm. With the muffs on I don't even have to use gloves, which is good because you can see the control with the muffs on and there is little sensitivity with the gloves on. The helmet failed because it leaked enough that I got frost on the inside and had a cold blast on my forehead that soon became painful. I ended up only going about 10 miles and had to turn around. As long as it is 10 degrees or above, this is usually not a problem, but below that, I start to have helmet trouble. Tomorrow I am going to test some snowmobile helmets. Two have chin air dams and double pane visors, which may solve most of the problems. I also have an older helmet I have not worn for years that has an electrically heated visor, which I lost the cord for. But I just got a replacement cord so I will also give that a try. Because the charging system of the KLR is so weak, I use a huge boat battery in the sidecar for ballast and to power some accessory electrics, when needed. So get a sidecar if you want to continue riding in the really cold weather. Oh yes, and it helps to move to Minnesota from Texas if you really want to test it out. -- ____________________________________ [b]Dennis............aka Jakhack[/b]

[RobertWichert]

I rode home from Monday Night Football last night without any discomfort and it was 38F.  I know that's not really cold, so not bragging. I was wearing an Aerostich, levis, pile sweater, glove liners, leather gloves, Arai helmet, 18" White firefighter boots. And yes, if it gets colder helmet leaks are the worst part.  I think that a head sock helps. Robert Wichert P.Eng. LEED AP BD&C +1 916 966 9060 FAX +1 916 966 9068 ===============================================

On 12/9/2013 7:30 PM, Dennis Johnson wrote:

  I have my KLR mounted to a Velorex 562 and ride all winter.  Rode today to test out a winter helmet (failed) and new snowmobile suit ( It passed with flying colors).  It was minus 2 degrees when I went out today.  I have grip heaters and ATV handlebar muffs on the bike so I mostly stay warm.  With the muffs on I don't even have to use gloves, which is good because you can see the control with the muffs on and there is little sensitivity with the gloves on.   The helmet failed because it leaked enough that I got frost on the inside and had a cold blast on my forehead that soon became painful.  I ended up only going about 10 miles and had to turn around.  As long as it is 10 degrees or above, this is usually not a problem, but below that, I start to have helmet trouble.  Tomorrow I am going to test some snowmobile helmets.  Two have chin air dams and double pane visors, which may solve most of the problems.  I also have an older helmet I have not worn for years that has an electrically heated visor, which I lost the cord for.  But I just got a replacement cord so I will also give that a try. Because the charging system of the KLR is so weak, I use a huge boat battery in the sidecar for ballast and to power some accessory electrics, when needed. So get a sidecar if you want to continue riding in the really cold weather.  Oh yes, and it helps to move to Minnesota from Texas if you really want to test it out. -- ____________________________________ [b]Dennis............aka  Jakhack[/b]

[Norm Keller]

Dennis, I also like to go out as & when I feel like doing so and so like to be able to ignore the temperature. We seldom go much below freezing here so the issue is usually slippery conditions which are a concern because of the other vehicle more than mine.

 

I have several helmets but the best is a HJC with chin curtain and snowmobubble double lens. It is a heated lens type but wanted to ask your thoughts about these as the $100.00 cost of mine is the single worst investment I have made on bike stuff. The current draw is correct, have tried two of these same lenses which are the same. There is absolutely no difference in the time required to defrost or the resistance to frosting up regardless of whether the heater is on.

 

If to do over again, I would buy an unheated snowmobubble lens as they are 1/2 the price. The ventilation is better for this type of face plate (should use that term rather than "lens") than for motorcycle face plates which greatly improves the resistance to fogging up.

 

I use a thin balaclava inside the helmet under cold conditions for additional comfort. Have ridden well below freezing at high speeds with the electric gear. My ST1100's 60 amp alternator (the stuff of dreams) makes 100 watt jacket, heated grips, heated gloves and all that stuff applicable but wind proof is the solution.

 

Wondering what Dennis and snowmobubble users might be able to suggest as to the heated face plate issue?

 

Norm

[16549 River]

First, on off topic question... where did you get a 60 amp stator for an ST1100.  I rode a 2002 or 2003 ST1100 for years and I thought it only had a 28 amp unit, but some people were able to upgrade to the newer 40 amp unit.  Long story short, I gave that bike to my son and then the stator went out - we waited almost 2 years to get a replacement 28 amp unit, as the japan warehouse was impacted by the tsunami.  We tried a rebuilt unit, but it kept burning out the regulator-rectifier, so we finally just waited until an OEM original unit was available.  So, where did you get a 60 amp unit?  No regulator issues? Thanks for that info. Back to the helmet question, funny that you should comment on not seeing any difference in the electric shield regardless of whether the power was on or not.  This is pretty much my experience as well, but I was not sure if the problem was a faulty shield or a poorly charged battery that powered my face shield.  I was testing this with my sidecar rig, and had a old, but large, heavy boat battery in the tub for ballast that I also tried to use to heat my helmet shield.  I need to test this battery and if okay, get it fully charged for my tests. The helmet itself is a Zoan which I had never heard of before, but it has possibilities and seems well made.  There are numerous things I like about it.  First, it is a modular unit, I think made specifically for snowmobile use.  It fits very tight - I can hardly get it on trying to pull it on like a regular full face helmet.  But using it in the open modular position, I can get it on easily, and it is then comfortable, but still very tight.  I think this will help the air swirling around issue.  It has a chin curtain and a breath guard, both of which should help.  The shield itself is double pane & electrically heated.  It also has a drop down sun shield, which I love on a sunny day in the snow.  So I hope this thing can be made to work.  I got it from a local power sports dealer who said he sold lots of them for snowmobilers. I will be trying it out later this week when it warms up a bit.  This morning it was -22 degrees, and I did not feel like testing it when it was so bitter cold.  But I will later - also have two other helmets with a double shield - both non electric.  One is a dual sport helmet with no chin curtain.  The other is an HJC CL12 with a dual shield, with a rather small chin curtain.  I will report back what I learn. Jakhack...........Dennis -- [b]Dennis O. Johnson[/b] 218 828-4664 Home and Office 218 330-7410 Mobile

[Norm Keller]

There are two alternator types used on the ST1100:

pre-1996 28 amp, oil cooled unit with external VRR. This VRR should not be confused with the external VRR used by the majority of motorcycles  because the operating principles make them incompatible.

 

I can explain the differences if someone is interested but suffice it to say that the 28 amp alternator can be easily rewired to use automotive components at a fraction of the price  of a new Honda VRR.

 

The 28 amp alternator actually puts out between 28 and 32 amps depending on individual variations. The 28 seldom fails excepting for oil leaks.

 

 

1996 & up, variously called 40 amp or 45 amp usually delivers more than that but how much depends on another variable. This type of alternator is an automotive type made by Nippon Densu (ND) which is air cooled, uses an internal voltage regulator (Type A) and separate internal rectifier. It is a 4-phase alternator rather than the more common 3-phase however that has no impact on use.

 

Some of these ND alternators actually deliver about 60 amps, depending on the model. Some years ago, ND made a 45 amp and a 55 amp version of the same size alternator which is common practice in the industry. From what I can infer, they later decided that the market for the 45 amp unit had diminished such that it wasn't economic to make the smaller output version so they concentrated on the 55 amp version. There are some variations in the physical configuration of these alternators depending on the specifications of the vehicle maker but most of the "guts" are the same.

 

What I assume is that they went to Honda and said that they were dropping the 45 amp version but would supply the 55 amp version in Honda's configuration at the same price and Honda said, "Fine with us!" The replacement 45 amp alternators and some of the later bikes I have load tested show a maximum alternator output of 59 or 60 amps which means that these are the 55 amp version. ND alternators usually deliver about 10% over rated output and survive well at that output, unlike some other domestic makes I might mention which do not.

 

Most people who are confronted with replacement of a 28 amp unit, will bite the bullet and replace with 45 amp as the additional output is seen as an advantage for the ST usage.

 

Depending on the area in which the bike is used, the 28 amp may be more robust since it is closed to external corrosion so areas like UK may find that the 28 survives better. IME, there have not been reports of significant failure rates to 45 amp (55 amp) units. The little ND alternators are a very well built product, IMO.

 

I do custom repairs of a number of motorcycle components, such as the ND alternator for the ST1100 because automotive shops are reluctant to work on these alternators due to the fact that they have no means to drive the alternator for testing. Another issue is that the rectifier is an unusual one which is shared only by a tractor made in India. I am able to adapt another unit.

 

I also repair a constant stream of ABS brake modulators, primarily ABS1 from the ST1100. I no longer service ABS2 modulators because of the inability to source the plastic check valves. These are not a significant failure item so no one should be concerned, IMO.

 

As for the regulator, could you provide more information? The 2002 ST uses the later air cooled ND 40/45/55 amp alternator which has an internal regulator and rectifier. Honda do not provide these parts and do not, IME, provide the stator separately for either alternator.

 

Perhaps this is simply a difference in terms?

 

The stator is the fixed (static- hence the term 'stator') winding in which the alternator's alternating current is generated. The alternating current is fed through the rectifier to convert to direct current for the bike's use. Most bikes use a separate stator which is available as a replacement item.

 

These two alternators used by Honda are both separate alternators which use a stator with a dedicated rotor using a controlled magnetic field, unlike the fixed magnet magnetic field rotor bolted to the end of the crankshaft of most motorcycles. These are very different in operation from the two ST1100 alternators and of much more primitive design.

 

I'm thinking that someone is confusing the fixed magnet alternator used by most motorcycles with the ST?

 

Did you personally do the work or observe it being done to the ST?

 

It sounds as though someone has reported incorrect information to you.

 

Time to go run some errands so will respond to the helmet information which you provided. That is greatly appreciated!

 

I am interested in trying to understand what happened to your ST but hope my quest doesn't appear to be confrontational.

 

Norm

[Norm Keller]

  Dennis, I measured the current for two of the heated visors which were identical at about 2.1 amps if memory serves. I can remeasure if you would like a figure as that's likely easier than finding the reference in my notes.   I'd buy another snowmobubble visor but would not waste the money on heated. That reminds me that can't remember if asked a couple of tech friends who are active snowmobubble types.   The added ventilation and placement further from the face really helps. A chin curtain and breath box are the real deal and not to be dismissed unless one has tried one.

[Dennis O. Johnson]

Norm. Thanks for the ST1100 info.  I am going to forward this to my son, who now owns and operates the bike.  But I knew enough about it to raise the question.  I will suggest that he correspond directly with you should he want to pursue this.  As far as I know, it is running fine now, and he likes the bike, but if there is ever a possible stator problem, he will likely ditch the bike because it literally took two years to get it repaired and running again.  And in a moment of foolishness, I told him I would pay for the repair as a Xmas gift two years ago.  Naturally, he remembered and it was probably the most expensive gift ever to a family member, other than some diamonds I recall when I was young and passionate.  But I may have some of the facts wrong about the whole episode and would prefer you heard it from his mouth from now on. Okay, regarding the helmet tests, I am delighted to report that the Zoan helmet with the electric shield is working great.  Since I did not have much luck with it last year, it must have been an issue with the battery.  I power the electric shield from a separate battery in the sidecar, rather than from the KLR650 battery, because I am already making quite a draw on the bike for the heated grips, sidecar lights, and etc.  When I looked behind the sidecar seat to check the battery, I was delighted to find that I replaced it with a new one in late 2012, and it is a very large boat battery, made for both starting and operating a trolling motor.  So I charged it up knowing I had a good battery and started my tests.  Yesterday, when I rode it was below 0.  Actually -5 F to -1 F.  The shield did not fog at all but there were small air leaks around the shield.  I could not get it to close tight enough to stop them.  This was when I was riding about 55 mph.  Then I turned once and found I had been riding into a head wind.  When I turned, I had a side wind, and the helmet as a slight occasional whistle.  Not enough to really bother, but it was a minor distraction.  When I removed the helmet after about a 15 mile ride, I could not feel any heat in the element area of the shield.  The center portion of the shield was clean, but then I saw condensation and fog outside the heating element.  So obviously, it must have been doing its job. Then I noticed one of the chin vents was open which may have been the source of the "air leaks" and whistling.  I closed it and did not have the same issues again.  I tried it again today.  It was a bit warmer - from +5 F to +8 F so I went for a longer ride - about 25 miles.  Also, it was snowing - big flakes.  This is some of my favorite riding - country lane, no traffic, 2 inches of soft snow to float along it.  It was gorgeous. I had the same results with the helmet as the day before.  This is now my 100% go to helmet for winter riding.  Like I said before, I really wanted this helmet to work because it is a modular, which I prefer, especially with a balaclava on.  And has a workable chin curtain, breath shield, and the neck roll and cheek areas are very snug, but not uncomfortable.  Add to that the drop down sun shade and it is about perfect. If you want to look it up, I found several Zoan helmets on eBay.  The one I have is the Zoan Runner model, with an electric dual shield and drop down sun shade.  They ranged fro $69 to $269, so there is quite a range.  I think I paid around $195 at a local power sports dealer.  With this helmet I have been able to lower the riding temps I am able to tolerate about 15 to 20 degrees Fahrenheit.

--   === DENNIS O. JOHNSON 218 828-4664  Home and Office 218 330-7410  Mobile    

[Norm Keller]

Thanks for the comprehensive helmet/face plate report. Greatly appreciated!

 

I would not expect to notice heat from the face plate because the wattage is too low (about 20 odd watts).

 

I will have to take some time to digest as there will be more information which will relate to my own circumstances.

 

Please ask you son to contact me as there are a number of valuable pieces of information which I can offer regarding the ST. I do want to reiterate that the ST alternator for the years in question is repairable. You may be able to find a local specialty alternator repair shop but otherwise contact me and we can discuss what can be done. Buying a replacement (complete) alternator is a very expensive solution to an unusual problem. ST1100's have almost zero problems with anything, even very old ones as virtually bullet proof.

 

The subject is very much off topic here so others may resent the band width but will mention that the rear wheel drive splines are critical for all shaft drive bikes. The correct grease must be applied to the spines when ever the rear wheel is removed. I am happy to continue with the subject here if there is interest.

 

Norm

[achesley43@ymail.com]

Message in the wrong place. tried to delete it  ubt??????