increasing klr 650 fan cfm plus coverage

[Craig Kahler]

You don't get it! This is an opportunity to inprove something which need inproving. It's FUN! Then there are those who could care less. As long as the thing kicks over and runs, their happy. To each his own. I joined this group for the technical stuff. Relax, Try not to let our disscussions bother you so. Craig Kahler Zachariah Mully wrote:

On Mon, 2007-07-02 at 13:02 -0700, Craig Kahler wrote: > Just tryng not to deviate too far from stock. I can't help but think > Kawasaki had some reason for using a 160F thermostat, or am I giving > them too much credit? I'm tring to stop the drastic temp. swings. > While crusing my temp gage reads about 15%. in stop and go traffic it > gos to about 80% of full range. As it is now, I'm not sure this thing > is much better than an air cooled bike. Correct me wrong, but as I > understad it, we now have a 160F/205F thermostat/ fan switch. I would > like to close that gap and not have those temp swings. It's the reason > I bought a water cooled bike. If I go to a 195-205F t-stat I can see > there may be no need to mess with the fan switch, But I have concerns > of engine problems/boiling gas/rider comfort, runing the engine that > hot. I am not a professional mechanic, just a tinkerer who like to > "improve" everything I get my hands on. So if my concerns are > unfounded, let me know. > Craig Kahler Again, every one is frantic about temperatures, but no one has any hard data. You're all relying on a $0.04 temperature gauge that is made from old Voltrons and parts that Harleys have shed, and is about as accurate as the CIA intelligence about WMDs. Get an IR thermometer ($10) and measure the goddamn engine temperature before you all go get your panties in an obsessive compulsive bunch and make a $200 engine coolant bypass switch. Want the easy fix? Put a piece of blacktape over the temperature display. Stop obsessing over a non-problem and go riding. Z --------------------------------- Luggage? GPS? Comic books? Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Zachariah Mully]

On Mon, 2007-07-02 at 13:42 -0700, Craig Kahler wrote:

> You don't get it! This is an opportunity to inprove something which > need inproving. It's FUN! > Then there are those who could care less. As long as the thing kicks > over and runs, their happy. To each his own. I joined this group for > the technical stuff. Relax, Try not to let our disscussions bother > you so. > Craig Kahler

My issue is that you all think you have a problem, but have no data to confirm that it even is a problem. Believe me, I've spent plenty of money and time on improving my KLR, and it amuses me so on this list when the group-think kicks in about an apparent problem that they've just discovered. Too each his own, surely, but at least do it wisely. Z

[sd_ware]

Holycaveman from advrider did an interesting mod that I've been contemplating. He took a second radiator and sandwiched it to the original. He races the klr in enduro runs and did this in the event of a fan failure. Anyway, I know that Z wants us to stop fretting and get out and ride but just had to throw this into the mix. Kinda of curious of what some of you folks think of the idea of a second rad. Doug

[Jim Douglas]

Zachariah Mully wrote:

> > On Mon, 2007-07-02 at 13:02 -0700, Craig Kahler wrote: > > Just tryng not to deviate too far from stock. I can't help but think > > Kawasaki had some reason for using a 160F thermostat, or am I giving > > them too much credit? I'm tring to stop the drastic temp. swings. > > While crusing my temp gage reads about 15%. in stop and go traffic it > > gos to about 80% of full range. As it is now, I'm not sure this thing > > is much better than an air cooled bike. Correct me wrong, but as I > > understad it, we now have a 160F/205F thermostat/ fan switch. I would > > like to close that gap and not have those temp swings. It's the reason > > I bought a water cooled bike. If I go to a 195-205F t-stat I can see > > there may be no need to mess with the fan switch, But I have concerns > > of engine problems/boiling gas/rider comfort, runing the engine that > > hot. I am not a professional mechanic, just a tinkerer who like to > > "improve" everything I get my hands on. So if my concerns are > > unfounded, let me know. > > Craig Kahler > > Again, every one is frantic about temperatures, but no one has any hard > data. You're all relying on a $0.04 temperature gauge that is made from > old Voltrons and parts that Harleys have shed, and is about as accurate > as the CIA intelligence about WMDs. Get an IR thermometer ($10) and > measure the goddamn engine temperature before you all go get your > panties in an obsessive compulsive bunch and make a $200 engine coolant > bypass switch. > > Want the easy fix? Put a piece of blacktape over the temperature > display. Stop obsessing over a non-problem and go riding. > > Z > > . > >

Someone got up on the wrong side of the bed...............................It's interesting that all the KLR's I have owned have always run cool, actually strangely cool. I personally feel that the Kawasaki engineers know quite a bit about engines and there is probably some reason that it behaves like that, could be something as simple as keeping it coolers helps the seat stay software and the dohickey from breaking earliers !

[Norm Keller]

In response to Craig's post: Bill Watson & Jeff Saline have been playing with a by-pass thermostat set-up for this very purpose. As a rule of thumb, the hotter the better for a gasoline engine. An engine running at 195 F will last longer than one at 160 F because of less fuel impingement (liquid fuel sticking to the sides of the intake passages and cylinder) because there is less washing down of the oil film on the cylinder walls and piston rings. The KLR runs a thermostat which is similar to some automotive systems such as Dodge 2.2 & 2.5 which were common in the 1990's. This system locates the thermostat high in the cylinder head where it receives heat which is concentrated by coolant convection. Once a pocket of hot coolant around the thermostat pellet has reached sufficient temperature, the thermostat will cycle wide open and coolant will flow at high rate from the cylinder head coolant outlet to the top of the radiator, down through the rad, into the water pump and into the cylinder where it makes its way upward through the cylinder head. The small volume of hot coolant is completely displaced by the cool coolant from lower down and the cold coolant from the radiator and hoses. At this point in time the coolant around the thermostat pellet is very cold which chills the thermostat down and it slams shut. Heat continuing to enter the coolant in the head (and to a lesser extent the cylinder) heats the coolant higher up in the head and opens the thermostat wide open. The cycle repeats unless the engine is delivering a high amount of heat to the cooling system. You will notice the cycling of the temperature gauge. If you were operating in cold temperatures, such as minus levels, you would notice the temperature gauge swinging wildly form cold to thermostat opening point and back. This was particularly noticeable in the North when operating the 2.2. & 2.5 Dodges (as well as others) because the temperature gauge would swing wildly and the heater would alternate between hot and cold. Most automotive engines use a thermostat by-pass passage which allows a constant flow of coolant past the thermostat so that the coolant throughout the engine is constantly mixed to a uniform temperature. In this type of system, the larger volume of hot coolant, combined with the constant mixing causes the thermostat to remain partially open and to maintain coolant temperature by gradually opening or closing as required to maintain engine coolant temperature at the thermostat opening temperature. In this system, the temperature gauge tends not to fluctuate, even at cold ambient temperatures. Why don't bike makers use a by-pass system? Two reasons: an additional passage is required which is more costly to manufacture; and a non-bypass system shunts all coolant through the radiator so can cool slightly better than a by-pass system in marginal over heating conditions. Bill Watson has some fantastic research documentation regarding his KLR with and without the thermostat by-pass system. He used a larger automotive thermostat which is less expensive, available in 160, 180, 195 & 205 F temperatures, plus has a larger flow area so the addition of the by-pass passage is more than compensated for (as I infer from reading his research) in increased radiator flow. I am investigating a source for a 195 F thermostat which will fit the KLR. Regardless, I hope to find a source of a less expensive thermostat. When my spare engine arrives, it will allow me to investigate the installation of a thermostat by-pass passage using the stock thermostat. I hope to be able to drill the stock coolant passage in the thermostat cavity. If you look at the cylinder head immediately behind the thermostat housing (water outlet), you will notice two lines cast into the head. I am proposing drilling and taping a 1/8' NPT elbow into this location to couple a 1/4" hose. The hose might couple to the water pump housing by means of a similar drilled passage into the flat area between the two hoses. I will need to remove the water pump housing to check this out further. The advantage of the by-pass system I theorize is that it will be much less expensive and simpler for someone to install than a separate manufactured thermostat housing which incorporates a larger thermostat and by-pass hose fitting. I also prefer to drill into the water pump housing rather than to install a Tee into the lower radiator hose. This is simply under investigation at this time but I will post any progress. Bill Watson seems to be on holiday and I want to talk with him regarding these ideas as he is the authority on KLR cooling, no question. It also should be noted that he is an engineer and engineers are known for over complicating designs so there also the hope that I can design something simpler and have the opportunity to pull his leg. (VBG) Hope this is useful. Please keep me posted as to your thoughts. I am at the cottage and on dial-up so can't send photos of that to which I refer. Norm [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Norm Keller]

Zach, please do not include me in your diatribes! Your language and tone are out of line and you are wrong in your assertion regarding data. Many of us have data. Your coarse language and disrespect make me unwilling to invest in talking with you. Please do not post me again. Norm

>Again, every one is frantic about >temperatures, but no one has any hard >data. You're all relying on a $0.04 >temperature gauge that is made from >old Voltrons and parts that Harleys have >shed, and is about as accurate >as the CIA intelligence about WMDs. Get >an IR thermometer ($10) and >measure the goddamn engine temperature >before you all go get your >panties in an obsessive compulsive bunch >and make a $200 engine coolant >bypass switch.

. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Norm Keller]

Jeff Saline has been talking about mouting a KLR250 radiator (hope I'm correct?) on the over flow tank side which is a very interesting concept. I have talked with a couple of others who have mounted larger rads and dual rads. Here, on Canada's West Coast, heat has not been a big issue but all these concepts are very illuminating if one attempts to move them from concept to application. This is why there is such a huge difference between theory and practice! (VBG) I have been thinking of subsituting and automotive heater core for a motorcycle radiator but have not moved beyond the idea because heating has not been an issue in the circles I ride with. Arrgh! Mrs. Knott, my grade three teacher would have smacked my knuckles! ".....has not been an issue for those with whom I ride." Bill Watson has been out of communication for a bit and I have several questions to run through his assessment. Off at the cottage on holiday but will get back to trying to find an after market thermostat (hopefully 195 F) for the KLR on my return. I have a spare engine, plus extra head and cylinder coming so hope to work out a simpler thermostat by-pass system. Oh the glory if I can develop a system simpler than Bill's or Jeff's? (VBG) Norm

>Kinda of curious of what some >of you folks think of the idea of a second rad. >Doug

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[LD]

Forgive me if this is a stupid question but regarding thermostats, is there any real reason to use one? Back in the 70's when I was a poor young man, anytime I had a thermostat go bad in a car, I would just take it out and run without one. It kinda sucked in the winter because the heat would not build up enough to warm the car very well, but it never seemed to affect the reliability of the car. Why does a KLR need a thermostat? ____________________________________________________________________________________ Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us. http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7

[kestrelfal]

Maybe a KLR 'stat could be re-waxed for 195 deg F? Fred

--- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, "Norm Keller" wrote: > > Jeff Saline has been talking about mouting a KLR250 radiator (hope I'm correct?) on the over flow tank side which is a very interesting concept. I have talked with a couple of others who have mounted larger rads and dual rads. > > Here, on Canada's West Coast, heat has not been a big issue but all these concepts are very illuminating if one attempts to move them from concept to application. This is why there is such a huge difference between theory and practice! (VBG) > > I have been thinking of subsituting and automotive heater core for a motorcycle radiator but have not moved beyond the idea because heating has not been an issue in the circles I ride with. > > Arrgh! Mrs. Knott, my grade three teacher would have smacked my knuckles! ".....has not been an issue for those with whom I ride." > > Bill Watson has been out of communication for a bit and I have several questions to run through his assessment. > > Off at the cottage on holiday but will get back to trying to find an after market thermostat (hopefully 195 F) for the KLR on my return. > > I have a spare engine, plus extra head and cylinder coming so hope to work out a simpler thermostat by-pass system. Oh the glory if I can develop a system simpler than Bill's or Jeff's? (VBG) > > Norm > > >Kinda of curious of what some > >of you folks think of the idea of a second rad. > > >Doug > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

[Blake Sobiloff]

On Jul 2, 2007, at 6:51 PM, LD wrote:

> Forgive me if this is a stupid question but regarding > thermostats, is there any real reason to use one?

Nah, they're useless farkle that every engine manufacturer sticks on there so they can charge you more money. Seriously, from an initial wear and emissions perspective, it's best to get the engine up to around 190 degrees (F) as soon as possible, and then keep it there. This is modern best practice. (Also best practice is to have an oil/water heat exchanger so that the oil can be heated quickly from cold start, but benefit from the additional cooling capacity of the water radiator during prolonged heavy engine loads.) As your personal experience shows, the engine longevity benefits really are long-term benefits. It's one of the (many) things that allows modern automotive engines to easily achieve 100K+ mile lifespans. -- Blake Sobiloff http://sobiloff.typepad.com/blakeblog/> San Jose, CA (USA) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]