stock is as stock does

[E.L. Green]

--- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, Jacobus De Bruyn wrote:

> The drum brakes are much more reliable and last > longer. Are they not good enough for bigger bikes?

Actually, no. The reason for drum brakes is that they can be cable-actuated. For bigger bikes you need hydraulics in order to get sufficient force upon the drum without having too much movement at the handlebar. Once you go to hydraulics, there's no reason for drum brakes -- they have more moving parts than disc brakes and are just as prone to freezing up at inopportune times if something gets stuck in the wheel cylinder. I've done brake jobs on drum brakes, and brake jobs on disc brakes, and much prefer the discs. They are simpler and easier to deal with. The only reason why anybody uses drum brakes today is if the bike they're on is light enough that cable-actuated brakes are sufficient to stop the bike. Otherwise there's just no reason -- disc brakes are simply cheaper and more reliable.

[Michael Martin]

Jake, If the rear brake was dragging, you will need to determine whether the caliper is not retracting like it is supposed to. If not, the caliper will have to be disassembled, cleaned, and re-assembled. You should use new rubber parts when you do this. Corrosion can occur in the caliper grooves, forcing the seals to have too much pressure against the piston. This corrosion should be removed with a hard plastic or wood scraper (you'll damage the caliper if you use a sharp steel object to scrape the corrosion). Another possible cause for a dragging brake is dirt inside the master cylinder preventing the fluid pressure from completely releasing when you release the brake pedal. And check that the brake pedal moves freely on its pivot so it can release when you take your foot off it. HTH, Mike Martin, Louisville, KY --- Jacobus De Bruyn wrote:

> Gents,I rode into my gate this afternoon, and got > almost hit by the remote control door, the bike > wouldn t move. The rear brake was locked closed, and > the caliper was very hot, when I removed the bleeding > valve, boiling oil came out. > Is this the best we can do for motorcycle brakes? > Unreliable, whimsical things, that out of the blue > freeze, and send you to your grave? Are there any > better quality systems available? > > It seems that for every hour riding this thing, there > are five hours fixing, and scratching my head, and > some cursing can be heard too. > > The drum brakes are much more reliable and last > longer. Are they not good enough for bigger bikes? > The braking on this thing is not as good as on the 125 > ybr. > > Now to get back the oil pressure on the caliper, seems > to take for ever, so I ll let it sit overnight. > I got the auto bleeder valves from Fred, so it should > work. I ve got the Clymer manual, so eventually it > should work out, but wednesday morning I have > scheduled the appointment with the vehicle inspection, > so I would like it back working before that. > > I would welcome comments. Jacostarica. > > > >

[Gary LaRue]

Be sure not to use steel wool or a brillo pad or anything made of steel. I've been told that little splinters will embed themselves in the aluminum body of the caliper and cause corrosion from the interaction of the dissimilar metals. (I forget what that's called.) I am assuming that the calipers are aluminum like they were/are on my classic Hondas. Lash ----- Original Message ---- From: Michael Martin mmartin36@... Corosion can occur in the caliper grooves, forcing the seals to have too much pressure against the piston. This corrosion should be removed with a hard plastic or wood scraper (you'll damage the caliper if you use a sharp steel object to scrape the corrosion).

>

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[Jacobus De Bruyn]

Thank you very much Mike, for your detailed summary of things that could happen just to the caliper piston. And then I heard that the oil could absorb water, and this could cause problems. I just bought ten new washers for the banjo bolt, -what a name- and a new Yamaha banjo bolt. While I was in the Yamaha store locally, I managed to get a set of brake pads too for abt. $9,- called Nippon. Also my friend Carlos gave me some practical hints, like there is a position on the levers, that will allow the oil to trickle down by itself. So, when the midday heat dies down a bit, I will disconnect the footlever, and see if the oil will trickle down. Then I have the automatic bleedervalves, so this must be a breeze. What I want to do first, is push out the piston, and cleanse it and check it. I wish I had compressed air, to push it completely out, and check the whole show. I hope the rubbers are still ok. Well, well, when all that has happened, I could try to get the $& "$%& brakes working again. Now it is very comforting to hear from other buddies on this channel, that disk brakes are much easier to maintain, and the quality is ok, but I have to disagree, they are a professional pain wherever you want it, and unless you are experienced and or have someone to guide you, they are a hazard to anyone driving a MC. I had all kind of problems with the disc brakes on my Honda Baja 250, getting home at night with the disc red hot like a hot plate, and stuff like that, so don t tell me this is simple, it ain t. You need a lot of knowhow, and have experience, and a knack, to do a good job on these mfkg things. They were a major factor in one spill I had with the Honda, it took only two weeks to get my left knee working again, I was lucky. A backpack day pack with some raingear can also help when you hit the deck, as kneeprotectors and cheap gloves. Nothing more simple than the Drum type brakes on a MC, too bad they are not good enough for bigger bikes. OK, so I am an idiot, but many of the guys driving around are like me, and sooner or later will have problems with the brakes. Just my thoughts at this point. Jacostarica.

[Jacobus De Bruyn]

Thank you for your kind insights, the gist of things is; they are pretty shitty, and could be improved upon easily. As you can see from my answer to the group, it takes some training and experience to work with these bloody things, and if I need the rubbers, I will have to order from Fred, and wait a few weeks. This is a pretty serious issue, I never hear about on this KLR page. You will hear about oil, and all kinds of minor things, and farkling stuff, but my God, this is the main issue! It could kill you! Jacostarica.

[Dave Svoboda]

Wow, are you going to decry electronic ignitions, next? I can't believe you let a brake problem get so bad the disk glowed. Surely you noticed the wheel dragging! I've been riding and wrenching for more than 25 years, and had dozens of bikes during that time, all of them having disk brakes, except for the rear drums on a few of the early ones. The disks never gave me any more trouble than the drums. Like anything else, they need maintenance, or they'll do bad things. But working on disk brakes is relatively simple, as they're right there, exposed, to work on. "Sooner or later everyone will have brake problems", well this is true if you don't do maintenance, but it's also true of: 1. Forks 2. Rear suspension 3. Chain 4. Sprockets 5. Air filter 6. Lubrication system 7. Cooling system 8. Spark plug 9. Safety switches 10. Clutch 11. Cables (clutch and throttle) Disk brakes are a darn sight easier to maintain than some of those things. The basic problem with drum brakes is that they don't brake very well, or if they're designed to brake hard, they're VERY hard to keep cool. Hot brakes fade, and drums are notorious for that. And you often need to replace the whole wheel hub to replace the drum, instead of just bolting up a replacement disk. As far as bleeding a hydraulic system, there's very much written all over the Internet on that. It's quite straightforward on a single-caliper brake. A mity-vac works well, if you put some Teflon plumbers tape on the caliper nipple threads. - Dave Svoboda, Sandy Eggo At 11:50 AM 5/20/2008, Jacobus De Bruyn wrote:

>Thank you very much Mike, for your detailed summary of >things that could happen just to the caliper piston. >And then I heard that the oil could absorb water, and >this could cause problems. I just bought >ten new washers for the banjo bolt, -what a name- and >a new Yamaha banjo bolt. While I was in the Yamaha >store locally, I managed to get a set of brake pads >too for abt. $9,- called Nippon. Also my friend >Carlos gave me some practical hints, like there is a >position on the levers, that will allow the oil to >trickle down by itself. So, when the midday heat dies >down a bit, I will disconnect the footlever, and see >if the oil will trickle down. Then I have the >automatic bleedervalves, so this must be a breeze. >What I want to do first, is push out the piston, and >cleanse it and check it. I wish I had compressed air, >to push it completely out, and check the whole show. >I hope the rubbers are still ok. Well, well, when all >that has happened, I could try to get the $& "$%& >brakes working again. > >Now it is very comforting to hear from other buddies >on this channel, that disk brakes are much easier to >maintain, and the quality is ok, but I have to >disagree, they are a professional pain wherever you >want it, and unless you are experienced and or have >someone to guide you, they are a hazard to anyone >driving a MC. >I had all kind of problems with the disc brakes on my >Honda Baja 250, getting home at night with the disc >red hot like a hot plate, and stuff like that, so >don t tell me this is simple, it ain t. >You need a lot of knowhow, and have experience, and a >knack, to do a good job on these mfkg things. They >were a major factor in one spill I had with the Honda, >it took only two weeks to get my left knee working >again, I was lucky. A backpack day pack with some >raingear can also help when you hit the deck, as >kneeprotectors and cheap gloves. Nothing more simple >than the Drum type brakes on a MC, too bad they are >not good enough for bigger bikes. >OK, so I am an idiot, but many of the guys driving >around are like me, and sooner or later will have >problems with the brakes. Just my thoughts at this >point. Jacostarica. > >

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[E.L. Green]

--- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, Jacobus De Bruyn wrote:

> Thank you very much Mike, for your detailed summary of > things that could happen just to the caliper piston.

Note that these things can also happen to the master cylinder piston in a hydraulic drum brake. In fact, I've had it happen to me. The smoke coming out of my rear wheel (1971 Ford Torino) was impressive! Ruined the drum of course.

> And then I heard that the oil could absorb water, and > this could cause problems. I just bought

Yes, this is the case for all hydraulic brakes. You MUST use the appropriate hydraulic brake fluid -- NOT oil, brake fluid is high-temperature engineered hydraulic fluid. If you put oil into hydraulic brakes, you'll get problems rapidly because the water which invariably finds its way into a supposedly "sealed" system will go to the lowest point in your system (the wheel cylinder or piston) and both interfere with the ability to brake (since it will boil when heated up by braking and cause bubbles in the brake line) but also cause corrosion that'll eventually cause the cylinder or piston to lock up. Unfortunately, the way brake fluid avoids this is by being hygroscopic (absorbs water). Which means always use a FRESH UNOPENED CONTAINER of the appropriate fluid, especially if you live in a humid climate like Louisiana or Costa Rica. Don't ask me how I know that one . I also recommend changing the brake fluid once per year if you live in a very humid climate such as Louisiana or Costa Rica, otherwise it will pick up too much water and cause the same boiling and corrosion problems that its hygroscopic nature is intended to prevent. Again, this is a hydraulic brake issue, not a disk vs. drum issue. If your old bike had cable-actuated drum brakes you could avoid this issue, but any hydraulic brake system -- disk or drum -- will have this issue.

> ten new washers for the banjo bolt, -what a name- and > a new Yamaha banjo bolt. While I was in the Yamaha > store locally, I managed to get a set of brake pads > too for abt. $9,- called Nippon. Also my friend

Note that the wrong brake pads can cause disk brake problems, since disk brakes rely on the imperfections of the disk being able to push the pads aside. If the pads are too thick or are shaped such that they hang on part of the caliper, you'll have problems. That is why I stick with major name brand brake pads such as the OEM Kawasaki pads or EBC pads -- this is a fundamental safety issue, not a place to go cheap. Go cheap on things that will not kill you if they go bad.

> Carlos gave me some practical hints, like there is a > position on the levers, that will allow the oil to > trickle down by itself. So, when the midday heat dies > down a bit, I will disconnect the footlever, and see > if the oil will trickle down. Then I have the

I've been bleeding brakes for years just by pumping until no air comes out the hose at the other end (the other end should have a hose on it that goes down into a cup or jar of brake fluid). Keep pumping a bit after that to finish flushing any crud out of the system.

> on this channel, that disk brakes are much easier to > maintain, and the quality is ok, but I have to > disagree, they are a professional pain wherever you > want it, and unless you are experienced and or have > someone to guide you, they are a hazard to anyone > driving a MC.

I am puzzled. I had never seen a disk brake in my life when I first needed to change the brake pads on my 1981 Chevrolet Chevette. A bit of study of the maintenance manual and examination of the actual hardware sufficed to understand what exactly was going on. I was not an experienced mechanic, nor had anybody to guide me. I just read the manual.

> I had all kind of problems with the disc brakes on my > Honda Baja 250, getting home at night with the disc > red hot like a hot plate, and stuff like that, so

It is possible to mis-design any brake system. The drum brakes on my 1971 Torino, for example, had an issue where the automatic adjuster mechanism could cause the brake shoes to lock up against the drums. The result there was the same as what you describe for your Baja 250, i.e., smoke coming out of the wheel wells and ruined drums. The KLR is not such a mis-designed brake system. The only thing that can cause a problem with the KLR brake system is lack of maintenance or improper parts (e.g., cheap brake pads that do not fit properly). Otherwise it is a very simple and trouble-free system.

> don t tell me this is simple, it ain t. > You need a lot of knowhow, and have experience, and a

Or a good manual. Luckily such a good manual exists, put out by Clymer. Note that I am a computer geek, not a mechanic. I make my living by pushing bytes around, not by pushing tools around. I had absolutely no problem changing out my front rotor to the EBC oversized one, or doing multiple pad changes on my brakes. In any event, I've had disk brakes for probably 100,000 miles of motorcycling with no problems, as well as hundreds of thousands of miles of automobile travel, and the only troubles I've had with them are with disks becoming warped during long downhill stretches on automobiles with automatic transmission. I have resolved that problem by no longer buying automobiles with automatic transmission . _E

[transalp 1]

In the absence of a Mity-Vac vacuum pump to draw the fluid down into the new line: Get a mechanic's syringe (about $5 at an auto parts store) and connect it to the brake bleeder fitting with some tubing. Wrap the threads of the bleeder with a turn or two of teflon tape to help seal it first. Blot the master cylinder dry with paper towels. Remove the plunger from the syringe and fill it about 1/2 full of brake fkuid. Tap out the bubbles and reinsert the plunger. *Carefully/slowly* pressurize the system and force the fluid up through the new line. Monitor the master cylinder fluid level and you should be able to get most of the air from the system. Then just pump/hold/release/tighten/pump/hold/release/tighten the old fashioned way with some tubing connected to the bleeder with the free end in a small container of fluid. eddie

> [Original Message] > From: David Giuliani > To: DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com> > Date: 8/11/2009 7:05:57 PM > Subject: [DSN_KLR650] speed bleeder > > How does this thing work? My guess is, it has a one way valve that will

release fluid after opening it a half turn or so and pumping the brake. But nothing is happening. Should I try filling the new brake line first, then bleed?

> Thanks, Dave > > > >

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[Monty]

<>

 

+1 he's absolutely correct IMO. 

 

Do what you want but this is money well spent and it's easy to do.