san diego tech day

[Blake Sobiloff]

On Feb 3, 2008, at 12:04 PM, Ed Dobson wrote:

> Run your oil out to 6K with tests every 1K and I'm guessing you'll be > surprised at the results.

Knock yer self out, Ed--that sounds like a good project for ya. Enjoy! -- Blake Sobiloff http://www.sobiloff.com/> San Jose, CA (USA)

[Lee Dodge]

I hate to add to this debate but here goes. The following data/facts/recommendations represent cases where; 1. There is a gearbox shearing away sometimes with, sometimes without, an engine sharing the same lubricant . 2. A manufacturer placing a reputation and other significant financial 'chips' on-the-line. Your assignment -should you choose to accept it- explain why what they say and the apparent consensus on this forum is different? Here are the a few examples: AMSOIL Products recommended for ASTM GL-1 applications are: CTG (SAE 10W) CTJ (SAE 30) CTL (SAE 50) Use AMSOIL CTL in truck and tractor manual transmissions such as Rockwell (Eaton/Fuller) that may require a GL-1 performance specification. DODGE Dodge recommends using a 10w-30 engine oil in their NP2500 5 speed manual transmission and even recommends changing to Dextron ATF in cold weather. Change interval: 36,00 mi. (heavy duty cycle.).(fm my owners manual) There are many other manual syncro gearboxes that specify 10W-30 lube. HONDA ST1100 , you may have heard these bikes run a long time, to very high mileages. Combined engine/ trans oil SAE 10w-40; Service Class SF or SG Change interval 8,000 mi. ( fm my owners manual) Many of their cars use a 10W-30 transmission lube, too. Red Line 10W30 Motorcycle Oil-(Fm their sales literature) Designed for the latest-high revving four-stroke motocross and ATV engines, as well as for four-cylinder and V-Twin Sportbikes that specify a 10W30 motor oil. Question? Why do manufacturers specify a 10W-30 oil for their latest high revving four-stroke motocross and ATV engines as well as Sport bikes . . Many/most / all? of which have combined engine gearbox lubrication? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Ed Dobson]

--- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, Blake Sobiloff wrote:

> > On Feb 3, 2008, at 12:04 PM, Ed Dobson wrote: > > Run your oil out to 6K with tests every 1K and I'm guessing you'll be > > surprised at the results. > > Knock yer self out, Ed--that sounds like a good project for ya. Enjoy! > -- > Blake Sobiloff > http://www.sobiloff.com/> > San Jose, CA (USA) >

Geez, Blake, that would take me several years! ED

[Robert Waters]

Last summer. a friend and I enjoyed a trip from Arkansas to Silverton Colorado. I was on my 07 KLR. While in Silverton I met a man that was also riding a KLR--an older model. It was a borrowed bike. If my memory serves me correctly, it had a picture of the owner on the luggage rack. The owner supposed had been around the world five times. I'm not sure if the guy was saying it was all on that one bike. At any rate, he told me the owner never changes his oil--he just changes the filter. No doubt there are some on this list that know who I'm talking about and can more accurately tell the story of this world traveler and his no oil change philosophy. Robert Waters TotalHealth.bz Focus On Truth --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Zachariah Mully]

On Mon, 2008-02-04 at 07:14 -0800, Robert Waters wrote:

> Last summer. a friend and I enjoyed a trip from Arkansas to Silverton > Colorado. I was on my 07 KLR. While in Silverton I met a man that > was also riding a KLR--an older model. It was a borrowed bike. If my > memory serves me correctly, it had a picture of the owner on the > luggage rack. The owner supposed had been around the world five > times. I'm not sure if the guy was saying it was all on that one > bike. At any rate, he told me the owner never changes his oil--he > just changes the filter. > > No doubt there are some on this list that know who I'm talking about > and can more accurately tell the story of this world traveler and his > no oil change philosophy.

Sure, and I bet you have to double clutch the sucker to shift it as well. All this oil hooha is retarded. The KLR will tell you exactly when the oil needs to be changed as the shifting goes from one missed shift at every stop light, to missing every shift And this interval, for me at least, can be anywhere from 500-800 miles if offroad riding, to 2500-3000 miles if doing mostly highway miles. If folks want to change every 1500 miles, that's great. If you want to try for 6000, 10000, 15000 miles, go for it, it's your bike, just let us know how crunchy those bearings feel when you rebuild the engine. Z

[Robert Waters]

> Sure, and I bet you have to double clutch the sucker to shift it as

well. All this oil hooha is retarded. The KLR will tell you exactly when the oil needs to be changed as the shifting goes from one missed shift at every stop light, to missing every shift And this interval, for me at least, can be anywhere from 500-800 miles if offroad riding, to 2500-3000 miles if doing mostly highway miles. If folks want to change every 1500 miles, that's great. If you want to try for 6000, 10000, 15000 miles, go for it, it's your bike, just let us know how crunchy those bearings feel when you rebuild the engine. > I never said I agree that never changing the oil was a good idea, I was just reporting the story, which really sounded crazy to me. I use Castrol 5W 50 Synthetic and I change it around or before 3k. No problems shifting with this oil. I have known of one other case where owner of a car never changed the oil--just the filter. I actually bought it. It was a 62 Chev. stationwagon. I took the engine apart at 125K. It has serious ring grove, but was as clean as it could be. Evidently, the owner never put STP in it. Robert W --- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, Zachariah Mully wrote:

> > On Mon, 2008-02-04 at 07:14 -0800, Robert Waters wrote: > > Last summer. a friend and I enjoyed a trip from Arkansas to

Silverton

> > Colorado. I was on my 07 KLR. While in Silverton I met a man

that

> > was also riding a KLR--an older model. It was a borrowed bike.

If my

> > memory serves me correctly, it had a picture of the owner on the > > luggage rack. The owner supposed had been around the world five > > times. I'm not sure if the guy was saying it was all on that one > > bike. At any rate, he told me the owner never changes his oil--

he

> > just changes the filter. > > > > No doubt there are some on this list that know who I'm talking

about and can more accurately tell the story of this world traveler and his no oil change philosophy.

[Zachariah Mully]

On Mon, 2008-02-04 at 15:42 +0000, Robert Waters wrote:

> I never said I agree that never changing the oil was a good idea, I > was just reporting the story, which really sounded crazy to me. I > use Castrol 5W 50 Synthetic and I change it around or before 3k. No > problems shifting with this oil. > > I have known of one other case where owner of a car never changed > the oil--just the filter. I actually bought it. It was a 62 Chev. > stationwagon. I took the engine apart at 125K. It has serious ring > grove, but was as clean as it could be. Evidently, the owner never > put STP in it.

Robert, I wasn't criticizing you, or your story, but the people who refuse to do their own oil analysis, spout their limited knowledge about petroleum chemistry, tell the apocryphal never change oil story, then get off by telling someone who has personally done detailed oil analysis that they're wrong. Certainly, oil tests are up to interpretation, but at least they are hard numbers. And those are a damn sight better than all the typical oil hand waving that goes on the list. If we're going to get into an oil thread, I'd rather have those numbers to discuss (and hopefully secondary and tertiary numbers from others) than have some stupid "well, I never change the oil in my lawnmower and it works fine!!" Z

[Arden Kysely]

--- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, Zachariah Mully wrote:

> > All this oil hooha is retarded. The KLR will tell you exactly when

the

> oil needs to be changed as the shifting goes from one missed shift at > every stop light, to missing every shift And this interval, for

me at

> least, can be anywhere from 500-800 miles if offroad riding, to > 2500-3000 miles if doing mostly highway miles. If folks want to

change

> every 1500 miles, that's great. If you want to try for 6000, 10000, > 15000 miles, go for it, it's your bike, just let us know how crunchy > those bearings feel when you rebuild the engine. > > Z >

I wouldn't go that far, since lots of riders use their bikes in much the same way from day to day and would like to establish an OCI that balances cost and hassle with the warm fuzzy feeling of taking good care or their machines. I do agree that the KLR will tell when it's either low on oil or needs a change by how it shifts. Mine doesn't miss shifts, but it does get stiffer and notchy. I've settled on 2000 miles as my nominal OCI for several reasons: 1) it's easy to remember; 2) the shifting hasn't gone completely to hell by then; 3) it seems to be a good balance of cost and care; and 4) neither of my KLRs seems to have suffered from this interval by exhibiting oil-related failures. My A1 had 40k miles on the clock when I sold it and my A11 turned 35k a couple weeks ago. So far so good. __Arden

[E.L. Green]

--- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, Lee Dodge wrote:

> I hate to add to this debate but here goes. The following

data/facts/recommendations represent cases where;

> 1. There is a gearbox shearing away sometimes with, sometimes

without, an engine sharing the same lubricant . Actually, it is likely not the gearbox that is responsible for most of the shearing in the KLR. It is the wet clutch. Wet clutches are notorious for how hard they are on oil, every time you dump your clutch you're shearing your oil as it gets squeezed out from between the plates.

> 2. A manufacturer placing a reputation and other significant

financial 'chips' on-the-line. Not really. As I've pointed out elsewhere, the average motorcycle is ridden 4,000 miles per year and is junked after ten years. Thus manufacturers only need to worry about the motorcycle lasting 40,000 miles. There are obviously motorcycles where this is not the case -- e.g., big touring bikes like the Goldwing or ST1100 -- but they are the exception.

> DODGE Dodge recommends using a 10w-30 engine oil in their NP2500

5 speed manual transmission and even recommends changing to Dextron ATF in cold weather. Change interval: 36,00 mi. (heavy duty cycle.).(fm my owners manual)

> There are many other manual syncro gearboxes that specify 10W-30 lube.

This actually seems rather irrelevant. It is not gearbox wear that generally trashes KLR's. The first thing that happens is that the KLR develops rod knock, usually around 60k-70k miles. Upon disassembly 10=20k miles later, it is discovered that in addition to the rod bearings, the bottom end bearings are trashed and the cylinder liner is trashed, worn way out of spec to the point where a new cylinder liner is required. It's unclear which happened first. Do note that it usually isn't an engine problem that results in automobiles being junked, usually it is (very expensive) transmission problems. So it is a different story with automobiles, whose engines seem much longer-lived than their transmissions, than with the KLR, whose transmission seems much longer-lived than the bottom end.

> Red Line 10W30 Motorcycle Oil-(Fm their sales literature)

sales literature! Bwahahah!

> Question? Why do manufacturers specify a 10W-30 oil for their

"latest high revving four-stroke motocross and ATV engines as well as Sport bikes . . " Many/most / all? of which have combined engine gearbox lubrication? Because they don't have roller bearing bottom ends? Because motocross bikes have a lifetime measured in hours, and are expected to be rebuilt after every major race? (Shrug). Many possible reasons there, and I'd hesitate to make a generalization. All I know is what happens to KLR's over time, and what *might* help extend that time (i.e., regular oil changes to keep a good oil film under those roller bearings and on those cylinder walls). -E

[sd_ware]

--- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, "Ed Dobson" wrote:

> > --- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, "ckahleer" wrote: > > > > > > > > ~~~~Yep!, read this http://www.renewaters.ca/ducati/oil.html

But

> > > this report goes beyond judging whether or not the oil is worn

out

> > > due to shear by measuring oil viscosity retention. Shearing is

only

> > > one aspect that will break down a motor oil's viscosity

retention and

> > > NOT the over riding factor > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jake > > > Reddick Fla. > > > > > > > > To bad there were not more test point. If you take the average of

the

> > three points tested, Viscosity decreases by 30% between 0 and 800 > > miles, than only another 4% from 800 - 1500 miles. While it is

not

> > possible to plot an accurate viscosity / milage graph with only

the

> > three points tested, it appears most of the viscosity loss is

happening

> > well before 800 miles, and after that viscosity does not change

much.

> > If that is the case, the person changing his oil at 1,500 mile > > intrevals is not benefiting much over someone changing oil at the > > manufactures recomended 6,000 mile intervals. > > > > Craig Kahler > > Fredericksburg, VA > > > > > More data points are needed. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, & 6K. > > Are the conclusions regarding viscosity from the '96 SAE report

being

> misconstrued/misapplied? > > ED(still perplexed) >

I'm perplexed too Ed. What are anticipating with further mileage data points. Viscosity reversal? And what are you implying is being misconstrued in the SAE report??? It seems pretty clear. Gear pitting results from metal to metal contact which is mimized by degree of oil film thickness. Doug