san diego tech day

[Ed Dobson]

I still find it perplexing that the oil analysis people say 1.5K when Kawasaki recommends an OCI of 6K. Doesn't K beat the sh*t out of their engines when they test them? Wouldn't their recommended OCI be slightly conservative? Is there something missing here? Does oil start getting thicker at 2K? Still perplexed. More is better. But when is more too much? I'm still perplexed? No offense intended to the OA people. Still perplexed. ED (still perplexed)

[mikeypep]

While I agree that factory recommended OCI's and user OCCI's differ, it seems to pervade the automotive industry as well as motorcycles. There are established rules that manufacturers follow in testing their products where users all do something different. For example the manufacturers don't test their engines under the wide range of conditions that we users do. We don't even break in a new engine the same way, yet we all want them to last forever. Also, manufacturers are laboring under different public opinion. If they recommend a 2000 mile OCI everyone wants to know why. The industry average is much higher, certainly there must be something wrong with their engine. The average new buyer wants to minimize costs. This higher recommended OCI would look like a higher maintenance cost. (Yet we do it anyway). My personal opinion is that we are operating under a massive, universal referral and public opinion system. Undoubtedly mechanical devices last longer with meticulous maintenance. The high mileage vehicle operators are also big on preventative maintenance. I've often heard it said that frequent oil changes are just good insurance. It may not be necessary, but neither is life insurance, if you live long enough. We do the same with oil brands. I had never heard of Rotella befire this forum. Then there is the oil analysis. No matter what the technical testing shows, there are still those who do something else. "it was good enough for my daddy's Ranger pickup, its good enough for me." If we all believed the same things, we'd all be riding KLR's (snicker), running Rotella, changing oil and filter every 1500 miles, riding MEFO tires, our KLR's would all be green, clearly the best color, and so on. But we don't! Some change oil avery 6000 miles or so and their engines don't fail. If they did fail prematurely we'd probably blame it on the oil changes. It all comes down to choices. Thank God for choices! Ride often, ride safe!

[Mike]

--- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, "Ed Dobson" wrote:

> > I still find it perplexing that the oil analysis people say 1.5K when > Kawasaki recommends an OCI of 6K. Doesn't K beat the sh*t out of their > engines when they test them? Wouldn't their recommended OCI be > slightly conservative? Is there something missing here? Does oil start > getting thicker at 2K? Still perplexed. More is better. But when is > more too much? I'm still perplexed? No offense intended to the OA > people. Still perplexed. > > ED (still perplexed) >

Ed, In the case of the 2008 factory OCI, I'm confident there is a mistake in the manual. Changes after the initial flush average 7500 miles, with one interval at 9K miles. 9K miles?!?! Even 7500 miles? What are they thinking? After talking to a few people that used to work for Kawasaki, and work on other parts of the industry, opinion seems to be that longer intervals are now expected. They forgot they are dealing with the same old engine. It's not one of the more modern engines, it's old tech. Roller and ball bottom end, etc. Everyone makes their own decision when to change the oil. It takes a few minutes if you go slow, right? I don't think a different engine's recommended OCI should be figured in, but that's just me. Not forgetting the owner manual says 6 gears and shows a 6 speed shift pattern, of that they got the chain size wrong a couple of places... all the best, Mike

[E.L. Green]

--- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, "Ed Dobson" wrote:

> I still find it perplexing that the oil analysis people say 1.5K when > Kawasaki recommends an OCI of 6K. Doesn't K beat the sh*t out of their > engines when they test them? Wouldn't their recommended OCI be > slightly conservative? Is there something missing here? Does oil start

Ed, you have to remember that the average motorcycle is ridden less than 4,000 miles a year and retired by the time it's 10 years old. Yep, the average motorcycle is run only for 40,000 miles before it's junked. The service life of the motorcycle engine reflects that. Kawasaki doesn't care what happens after 40,000 miles, as long as the engine will last that 40,000 miles. If the engine starts having piston slap at 40,000 miles because too-thin oil allowed excessive cylinder wear, it's a matter of supreme disinterest to them, because the frank truth is that most KLR's never make it to 40,000 miles. Goldwings and other such exotic critters obviously have different design criteria, they're expected to go over 100,000 miles between rebuilds etc.... -E

[revmaaatin]

--- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, "mikeypep" wrote:

> > While I agree that factory recommended OCI's and user OCCI's

differ, it

> seems to pervade the automotive industry as well as motorcycles.

There

> are established rules that manufacturers follow in testing their > products where users all do something different. For example the > manufacturers don't test their engines under the wide range of > conditions that we users do. We don't even break in a new engine

the

> same way, yet we all want them to last forever. Also, manufacturers

are

> laboring under different public opinion. If they recommend a 2000

mile

> OCI everyone wants to know why. The industry average is much

higher,

> certainly there must be something wrong with their engine. The

average

> new buyer wants to minimize costs. This higher recommended OCI

would

> look like a higher maintenance cost. (Yet we do it anyway). My

personal

> opinion is that we are operating under a massive, universal

referral

> and public opinion system. Undoubtedly mechanical devices last

longer

> with meticulous maintenance. The high mileage vehicle operators are > also big on preventative maintenance. I've often heard it said that > frequent oil changes are just good insurance. It may not be

necessary,

> but neither is life insurance, if you live long enough. We do the

same

> with oil brands. I had never heard of Rotella befire this forum.

Then

> there is the oil analysis. No matter what the technical testing

shows,

> there are still those who do something else. "it was good enough

for my

> daddy's Ranger pickup, its good enough for me." If we all believed

the

> same things, we'd all be riding KLR's (snicker), running Rotella, > changing oil and filter every 1500 miles, riding MEFO tires, our

KLR's

> would all be green, clearly the best color, and so on. But we

don't!

> Some change oil avery 6000 miles or so and their engines don't

fail.

> If they did fail prematurely we'd probably blame it on the oil

changes.

> It all comes down to choices. Thank God for choices! > Ride often, ride safe! >

Hi Mike, You make some good points, as well as Jeff and Ed in the previous two post. As a point of reference, I am one of those that was doing "earl-analysis" cough, (sorry different forum) ah, oil analysis along with Jeff and Blake. With years of experience in military helicopter aviation where oil analysis was imperative to knowing if a gearbox was making metal--predicting if the beast was about to fail and kill the operator (me) and all the green gyrenes in the back. yeah, no kidding. Not thinking that this current green pig would kill me by knowing its gear box condition, I was curious (from the board- discussions) and ultimately wanted my green pig to have the greatest life expectancy possible due to budget constraints of an itinerant prairie parson. With that said, Some data points that we can all agree on is that KHI recommends that the oil should start with a viscosity of 40w. (given at specific temp, blah, blah, blah--you know the drill). Now, to suggest some aviation field overlap...and that is this, that certain inspection intervals, be they mechanical or fluid, the inspection interval is set at a known (or swag) mean time between failures. An example: a specific bearing (pitch change link) was inspected every 25-flight hours. The engineers believed that if it passed inspection at the normal interval, that even if it went out of 'spec' one hour after the interval inspection, i.e. at 26 hours, that the degree of wear, and safety required, the bearing would continue to do its job the remaining 24 flight hours--until the next inspection. Upon that next inspection, the bearing may fail inspection by 2x the allowance, but as long as it was within tolerance at the previous inspection interval, it was considered safe until the next inspection. What is an unknown in the KHI oil interval is this; what is the minimum oil viscosity over time? Using 80F, one would deduce that the oil requirement remains the std 10/40wt. But is that just the viscosity at the oil change or for the entire life expectancy of the oil? What (most) we are assuming is that the minimum is 40. What we (Blake, Jeff, me, and I think Steve R--plus others) are finding is that Rotella easily maintains 40wt through 1500 miles. What I also know is that Valvoline 10/40 failed at ~1000 miles to hold 40Wtand by 1500 smiles, it was a very marginal 30wt, sliding quickly to 20+wt. Perhaps is now a time to ask a question; Is 40wt the 'gold std' or is it, like my aviation example, just the minimum to start, and KHI expects the oil to shear down, but remain sufficient to grease-the-pigs-guts through a sheer wt of say, 20wt, or 10wt if carried out to an interval of

[revmaaatin]

--- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, "Ed Dobson" wrote:

> > I still find it perplexing that the oil analysis people say 1.5K when > Kawasaki recommends an OCI of 6K. Doesn't K beat the sh*t out of their > engines when they test them? Wouldn't their recommended OCI be > slightly conservative? Is there something missing here? Does oil start > getting thicker at 2K? Still perplexed. More is better. But when is > more too much? I'm still perplexed? No offense intended to the OA > people. Still perplexed. > > ED (still perplexed) >

Hi Ed, Great questions! John Deere has a lab where there diesel engines are given a break-in period, cough, because they KNOW that not a single operator out there is going to do the proper 100 hour break in.... The typical operator is going to hook on to the biggest plow, harrow, seeder, etc that the tractor is rated for, open the throttle and let up only long enough to turn around at the end of the field. With all that going for a brand new tractor costing zillions, some still fail. Why? The farmer's field test is ultimately more difficult on the machinery than any lab test the engineers design. Personally, I nominate to make Zack, Brooklyn Luke, CaStu or TUMU Rock the KHI test riders for oil analysis; I bet we would find that the results would be far different that the 'published' OCI. Yeah, Not likely to happen, but, Blake and Jeff have already done that for us. shrug. So do you trust KHI or do you trust some fellow riders that have done their homework? revmaaatin.

[revmaaatin]

--- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, "E.L. Green" wrote:

>SNIP

If the engine starts having piston

> slap at 40,000 miles because too-thin oil allowed excessive cylinder > wear, it's a matter of supreme disinterest to them, because the

frank

> truth is that most KLR's never make it to 40,000 miles. > -E >

Eric, I am going to steal this phrase, "supreme disinterest"...and use it later. You have been warned. smile. Other than being forthright, truthful and amusingly cynical, a great post. I hope my KLR last past 40K; 60K is my goal and reason for the oil analysis. shrug. revmaaatin.

[Harry Seifert]

Hi Rev................... This ain't LA, but it is 38F with low clouds and strong winds here in the not-so-sunny SoCal mountains. And to insert my own 2 cents (where'd the "cent" symbol go?????), nothing but Castrol 20w/50 in my beasts............worked ok in my Beezers and antique Ducs. Plus many of the local Kragens, Pep Boys and AutoZones will have specials where you can get a rebate of $1 - $1.50/qt when you buy a case. 'sides, that's what I use for my 8.2 qt oil changes on my LandCruiser. It's getting hard to find 20/50 delo at the local Costco's these days................they're selling mostly the 5W30 and 10W30 in the big gallons jugs anymore. 2.2 qts of oil and a filter, less than $12.00, is a cheap insurance policy for our precisely engineered steeds. And my local fuel emporium gladly takes all my used oil. But not when it's below 40F. Buddy

> [Original Message] > From: revmaaatin > To: DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com> > Date: 1/29/2008 12:54:45 PM > Subject: [DSN_KLR650] Re: KLR650 Oil Change Interval (OCI) > > --- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, "mikeypep" wrote: > > > > While I agree that factory recommended OCI's and user OCCI's > differ, it > > seems to pervade the automotive industry as well as motorcycles. > There > > are established rules that manufacturers follow in testing their > > products where users all do something different. For example the > > manufacturers don't test their engines under the wide range of > > conditions that we users do. We don't even break in a new engine > the > > same way, yet we all want them to last forever. Also, manufacturers > are > > laboring under different public opinion. If they recommend a 2000 > mile > > OCI everyone wants to know why. The industry average is much > higher, > > certainly there must be something wrong with their engine. The > average > > new buyer wants to minimize costs. This higher recommended OCI > would > > look like a higher maintenance cost. (Yet we do it anyway). My > personal > > opinion is that we are operating under a massive, universal > referral > > and public opinion system. Undoubtedly mechanical devices last > longer > > with meticulous maintenance. The high mileage vehicle operators are > > also big on preventative maintenance. I've often heard it said that > > frequent oil changes are just good insurance. It may not be > necessary, > > but neither is life insurance, if you live long enough. We do the > same > > with oil brands. I had never heard of Rotella befire this forum. > Then > > there is the oil analysis. No matter what the technical testing > shows, > > there are still those who do something else. "it was good enough > for my > > daddy's Ranger pickup, its good enough for me." If we all believed > the > > same things, we'd all be riding KLR's (snicker), running Rotella, > > changing oil and filter every 1500 miles, riding MEFO tires, our > KLR's > > would all be green, clearly the best color, and so on. But we > don't! > > Some change oil avery 6000 miles or so and their engines don't > fail. > > If they did fail prematurely we'd probably blame it on the oil > changes. > > It all comes down to choices. Thank God for choices! > > Ride often, ride safe! > > > Hi Mike, > You make some good points, as well as Jeff and Ed in the previous two > post. As a point of reference, I am one of those that was > doing "earl-analysis" cough, (sorry different forum) ah, oil analysis > along with Jeff and Blake. With years of experience in military > helicopter aviation where oil analysis was imperative to knowing if a > gearbox was making metal--predicting if the beast was about to fail > and kill the operator (me) and all the green gyrenes in the back. > yeah, no kidding. Not thinking that this current green pig would kill > me by knowing its gear box condition, I was curious (from the board- > discussions) and ultimately wanted my green pig to have the greatest > life expectancy possible due to budget constraints of an itinerant > prairie parson. > > With that said, > > Some data points that we can all agree on is that KHI recommends that > the oil should start with a viscosity of 40w. (given at specific > temp, blah, blah, blah--you know the drill). > > Now, to suggest some aviation field overlap...and that is this, that > certain inspection intervals, be they mechanical or fluid, the > inspection interval is set at a known (or swag) mean time between > failures. > > An example: a specific bearing (pitch change link) was inspected > every 25-flight hours. The engineers believed that if it passed > inspection at the normal interval, that even if it went out of 'spec' > one hour after the interval inspection, i.e. at 26 hours, that the > degree of wear, and safety required, the bearing would continue to do > its job the remaining 24 flight hours--until the next inspection. > Upon that next inspection, the bearing may fail inspection by 2x the > allowance, but as long as it was within tolerance at the previous > inspection interval, it was considered safe until the next > inspection. > > What is an unknown in the KHI oil interval is this; what is the > minimum oil viscosity over time? Using 80F, one would deduce that > the oil requirement remains the std 10/40wt. But is that just the > viscosity at the oil change or for the entire life expectancy of the > oil? > > What (most) we are assuming is that the minimum is 40. What we > (Blake, Jeff, me, and I think Steve R--plus others) are finding is > that Rotella easily maintains 40wt through 1500 miles. What I also > know is that Valvoline 10/40 failed at ~1000 miles to hold 40Wtand by > 1500 smiles, it was a very marginal 30wt, sliding quickly to 20+wt. > > Perhaps is now a time to ask a question; > > Is 40wt the 'gold std' or is it, like my aviation example, just the > minimum to start, and KHI expects the oil to shear down, but remain > sufficient to grease-the-pigs-guts through a sheer wt of say, 20wt, > or 10wt if carried out to an interval of > What really caught my attention was hard shifting beginning around > the 1000-mile oil change interval with Valvoline 10/40. I would not > even have to look at the Odometer; I would know that I was at or near > 1000 miles since the previous oil change. I think we could all > agree, hard shifting is not a good thing. Some of you with more > experience inside the KLR could comment, what is being > strained/pushed to its limits when the bike is hard to shift? shrug. > > Anything beyond shifting forks/dogs? That can't be a good thing.... > > Since the Rotella oil changes, the hard shifting does not occur at > 1000 miles. shrug again. > > And now, for those unbelievers: Blake and Jeff have offered > extensive personal data, testing and financial-thought to the > process. Its your bike, shrug, do what you think is best. Most on > this list won't ride 'this' bike long enough to matter, will go on to > a newer KLR or something else. I for one did not do the oil analysis > or read carefully the discussion because I thought it was a 'neat > experiment' but a matter of financial responsibly to make the green > pig carry my Methodist butt as long as possible. > > The Dr advises what is good for your body, the pastor teaches what is > good for your soul and moral character. Its your bike, shrug, do > what you think is best--that's what we do when the former two speak, > isn't it? The down side of all three of these, is you won't know the > ultimate outcome of today's decesion for your body, soul or bike > until much later. > smile. > ah, A-Men. > > revmaaatin. at -35F windchill, withstanding another cold, > contemplative day in the Dakotas. > > ps don't tell me us how nice it is in LA or FL; us frozen pilgrims in > the 'middle' will get depressed. smile. > > > > > List sponsored by Dual Sport News at: www.dualsportnews.com > List FAQ courtesy of Chris Krok at: www.bigcee.com/klr650faq.html > Member Map at: http://www.frappr.com/dsnklr650 > Yahoo! Groups Links > > >

[Blake Sobiloff]

On Jan 29, 2008, at 12:54 PM, revmaaatin wrote:

> What is an unknown in the KHI oil interval is this; what is the > minimum oil viscosity over time? Using 80F, one would deduce that > the oil requirement remains the std 10/40wt. But is that just the > viscosity at the oil change or for the entire life expectancy of the > oil? > > What (most) we are assuming is that the minimum is 40.

No assumptions here, Rev, but you ask an excellent question that took me some time to figure out an answer to. The answer came from SAE paper 961217, "Study on 4-Stroke Engine Oils for Motorcycles: Engine Characteristics and New-Specification Oils". This paper was written by representatives of Kawasaki, Honda, Suzuki, and Yamaha. The two most relevant bits of information from this paper were: 1) During new engine development all manufacturers use 10W-30 oil. 2) Once they throw a transmission into the mix they have to bump up to a higher weight oil, as the 10W-30 oil allows for pitting on the transmission's gear faces when it starts shearing down. So, 40- and 50-weight oils really are the "buffer" against viscosity breakdown that protects the transmission gear faces. The engine's quite happy with a 30-weight oil, but the transmission isn't. Seems to correlate quite nicely with your shift quality perceptions, eh Rev? Now, for extra credit, what are the viscosities in cSt at 100 dC of 90- weight gear oil and 40-weight motor oil? -- Blake Sobiloff http://www.sobiloff.com/> San Jose, CA (USA)

[revmaaatin]

--- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, Blake Sobiloff wrote:

> > snip > > Now, for extra credit, what are the viscosities in cSt at 100 dC of

90-

> weight gear oil and 40-weight motor oil? > -- > Blake Sobiloff > http://www.sobiloff.com/> > San Jose, CA (USA) >

Blake, If I knew there was going to be a test, I would have paid more attention. If I knew there was a test at the end of the class, i would have cut class.... If I knew.... revmaaatin. and you thought they bought me books and I used them for pillows