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[keithrstone]

My buddy is selling an '01 BMW LT1200, 60k miles. His transmission went out about 5k ago, the extended warranty paid for half. He's selling his bike, and I'm thinking about getting it for a nice tourer. I did some research and there seems to be lots of scuttlebut about final drive/transmission/clutch failures in the BMW bikes. Is this the case with this model? Any experience with this model good/bad? Thanks and have a great day! Keith

[Shane]

--- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, "keithrstone" wrote:

> > My buddy is selling an '01 BMW LT1200, 60k miles. > > His transmission went out about 5k ago, the extended warranty paid

for

> half. > > He's selling his bike, and I'm thinking about getting it for a

nice

> tourer. > > I did some research and there seems to be lots of scuttlebut about > final drive/transmission/clutch failures in the BMW bikes. > > Is this the case with this model? Any experience with this model > good/bad? > > Thanks and have a great day! > > Keith

Hi Keith The M95 trans is basically crap. The next (M96) was better because of better bearings. The M95 and the M96 are the same outside of this. What you want to know is if that trans was up graded to sealed bearings. I would hope that it was in the rebuild process. The "other" problem with these units is in the builder. Was it properly shimmed? If the trans was simply replaced with a genuine BMW factory rebuilt unit, you can bet your last $ that the unit is NOT properly shimmed. Getrag made these kwality units for BMW, they always have. They also make trans units for Ferrari, Moto Guzzi... Only the M95- 96 has this problem. The final drive is yet another problem with that machine. The crown bearings fail. My advice is DON'T buy it! For the money you can get a much newer Kawasaki Concourse, and have a far better machine. If you are like me, and love the boxer motor, that's one thing, get an older R. But for the 4 cyl world the K is a great motor, but the Kawasaki is of much higher quality. The only reason I own a BMW is for the engine. I do plan to sell this heap of an R1100RS 1995 soon to buy an R100. I just may even part it out and send the engine to Peru for my sand buggy! I spoke to a guy at out local bike night just tonight who was on a new Concourse 1400. He is trying to sell his K1200 now. He is another of us who will never buy another BMW product. The Kawi was $7000.- LESS than the BMW, and just plain better in any way you could look at it.

>

[mbetcher]

Just like the proverbial boat owner, the two happiest days of my time owning an '02 R1150GS were 1) the day i bought it; and 2) the day I sold it. Maybe the K-bikes are substantively different, but I really think that BMW engineers have these hilarious group meetings where they compete to devise the most idiocyncrasies they can build into the machine. there are about a million of them, but this was one of my favorites: the fuel filter is INSIDE the gas tank. What's the significance of that, you say? Well, the GS is advertised as an "adventure tourer." So if you get a shot of bad gas in Timbuctu or Tierra del Fuego all you have to do is 1) dump the gas and remove the tank; 2) take out a sealed plate on the tank bottom; 3) fish out the fuel lines, fuel gauge sender unit, etc., through a hole J-U-S-T big enough with copious wriggling; 4) replace the offending filter (with one that will take the 46psi fuel injection pressure -- every motorcycle shop in Timbuctu will have one of these); replace the whole shebang into the tank; and finally replace the access plate with a NEW O-ring (everyone carries one of these, right?). And, of course, find some gas to replace that which you just dumped into the sand. To do this on my workbench took several hours and a full panoply of tools. To do it roadside with the supplied tool kit would be a good working definition of miraculous. I'm sure when they were designing this there were more than a few Teutonic guffaws going around. Run...don't walk...from a BMW. -- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, "keithrstone" wrote:

> > My buddy is selling an '01 BMW LT1200, 60k miles. > > His transmission went out about 5k ago, the extended warranty paid for > half. > > He's selling his bike, and I'm thinking about getting it for a nice > tourer. > > I did some research and there seems to be lots of scuttlebut about > final drive/transmission/clutch failures in the BMW bikes. > > Is this the case with this model? Any experience with this model > good/bad? > > Thanks and have a great day! > > Keith >

[Michael Nelson]

On Fri, Nov 16, 2007 at 04:04:35PM -0000, mbetcher wrote:

> the fuel filter is INSIDE the gas tank.

Idiocy. Right up there with late model Moto Guzzis having a spin-on disposable cartridge oil filter. What's wrong with that, you say? Nothing, other than the entire thing is inside a cast aluminum finned oil pan that is maybe 10"x12"x2" and requires removal of a bunch of screws and spillage of much oil before you can even get to the oil filter. Probably designed by the BMW guys and sold to Guzzi. One time I was tasked with installing some driving lights on a BMW K1200LS, or whatever the one is that is the giant touring model with full fairings. Just to get the one big side fairing off involved removing 36 fasteners. I'm glad I am back to working as a UNIX sysadmin after that couple of years as the sole tech in a small motorcycle shop. Michael PS: The simplicity and stone-age technology of my A17 is just fine by me. -- "It's not what I don't understand about religion that bothers me, it's what I do understand." -- Mark Twain San Francisco, CA

[E.L. Green]

--- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, "mbetcher" wrote:

> there are about a million of them, but this was one of my favorites: > the fuel filter is INSIDE the gas tank.

This, unfortunately, is the case for all fuel injected vehicles, regardless of how many wheels they have. The problem is called, technically, "cavitation". Apparently the fuel pump must be inside the gas tank (or immediately outside it) in order to properly feed high pressure into the fuel line for the fuel injectors, otherwise it cannot suck enough pressure because of cavitation. And of course the fuel filter has to be on the fuel side of the fuel pump, makes no sense to have it on the injector side of the fuel pump. Result: On all modern vehicles (i.e. those with fuel injection), the fuel filter is inside the gas tank and is a PITA to change. We're talking about fundamental laws of physics, so there isn't anything to be done about it. It's not that BMW sat down to decide "oh, we want to make things hard for our customers", it's a fundamental feature of all fuel-injected vehicles. For an adventure bike there's something to be said for the stone-axe-simple approach of the KLR, which avoids frou-frou like fuel injection and ABS in favor of simple stuff that's fairly easy to field-strip and repair... -E

[Shane]

--- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, "E.L. Green" wrote:

> > --- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, "mbetcher" wrote: > > there are about a million of them, but this was one of my

favorites:

> > the fuel filter is INSIDE the gas tank. > > This, unfortunately, is the case for all fuel injected vehicles, > regardless of how many wheels they have. The problem is called, > technically, "cavitation". Apparently the fuel pump must be inside

the

> gas tank (or immediately outside it) in order to properly feed high > pressure into the fuel line for the fuel injectors, otherwise it > cannot suck enough pressure because of cavitation. And of course the > fuel filter has to be on the fuel side of the fuel pump, makes no > sense to have it on the injector side of the fuel pump. Result: On

all

> modern vehicles (i.e. those with fuel injection), the fuel filter is > inside the gas tank and is a PITA to change. > > We're talking about fundamental laws of physics, so there isn't > anything to be done about it. It's not that BMW sat down to decide > "oh, we want to make things hard for our customers", it's a > fundamental feature of all fuel-injected vehicles. For an adventure > bike there's something to be said for the stone-axe-simple approach

of

> the KLR, which avoids frou-frou like fuel injection and ABS in favor > of simple stuff that's fairly easy to field-strip and repair... > > -E >

Well...not really There is a mod for the BMW mess which puts that filter outside the tank, used by the IBR guys and those heading outback. Take a lookat most cars, they have the fuel filter mounted on the frame several feet forward of the tank/ pump. There are of course exceptions, but most vehicles have a frame rail mounted filter. Many newer- 2006+ vehicles have only in tank, but that's largely uhmerikin made stuff. I just yesterday changed the filter on an '05 F150- frame filter. Last week am '03 Hyundia- intank filter. Engineering outside uhmerikah dictates that one installs an access port in the vehicle body to access the in tank fuel pump & filter, instead of pulling the tank and changing thigs on the dirt. My MotoGuzzi '00 Jackal has the filter and pump mounted outside the tank- fuel infected too! That bike does defy Fizzics though. Shane

[W.V. Doran]

I installed a Martel Brothers Performance external fuel filter on my 95 R1100GS over 10 years ago...it has worked perfectly. MBP is no longer in business but other filters that work are available. Google Martel Brothers Performance you will most likely find what you need.The article below covers the task well. http://www.ibmwr.org/r-tech/oilheads/extern_fuel_filter.shtml "E.L. Green" wrote:

--- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, "mbetcher" wrote: > there are about a million of them, but this was one of my favorites: > the fuel filter is INSIDE the gas tank. This, unfortunately, is the case for all fuel injected vehicles, regardless of how many wheels they have. The problem is called, technically, "cavitation". Apparently the fuel pump must be inside the gas tank (or immediately outside it) in order to properly feed high pressure into the fuel line for the fuel injectors, otherwise it cannot suck enough pressure because of cavitation. And of course the fuel filter has to be on the fuel side of the fuel pump, makes no sense to have it on the injector side of the fuel pump. Result: On all modern vehicles (i.e. those with fuel injection), the fuel filter is inside the gas tank and is a PITA to change. We're talking about fundamental laws of physics, so there isn't anything to be done about it. It's not that BMW sat down to decide "oh, we want to make things hard for our customers", it's a fundamental feature of all fuel-injected vehicles. For an adventure bike there's something to be said for the stone-axe-simple approach of the KLR, which avoids frou-frou like fuel injection and ABS in favor of simple stuff that's fairly easy to field-strip and repair... -E WVDoran Scottsdale, AZ --------------------------------- Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[mbetcher]

Shane is correct. I did the external fuel filter mod on mine when I had the tank off and the innards pulled out. There's absolutely no reason why BMW could not have placed the filter in exactly the same -- and accessible -- place where I and legions of other GS owners have put it. The only possible practical explanation is that BMW engineers feared that the filter could burst under the 46psi pressure and cause a fireball if the filter were outside the tank. Uhhh...but when's the last time you heard of a metal-bodied filter bursting? - In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, "Shane" wrote:

> > --- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, "E.L. Green" wrote: > > > > --- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, "mbetcher" wrote: > > > there are about a million of them, but this was one of my > favorites: > > > the fuel filter is INSIDE the gas tank. > > > > This, unfortunately, is the case for all fuel injected vehicles, > > regardless of how many wheels they have. The problem is called, > > technically, "cavitation". Apparently the fuel pump must be inside > the > > gas tank (or immediately outside it) in order to properly feed high > > pressure into the fuel line for the fuel injectors, otherwise it > > cannot suck enough pressure because of cavitation. And of course the > > fuel filter has to be on the fuel side of the fuel pump, makes no > > sense to have it on the injector side of the fuel pump. Result: On > all > > modern vehicles (i.e. those with fuel injection), the fuel filter is > > inside the gas tank and is a PITA to change. > > > > We're talking about fundamental laws of physics, so there isn't > > anything to be done about it. It's not that BMW sat down to decide > > "oh, we want to make things hard for our customers", it's a > > fundamental feature of all fuel-injected vehicles. For an adventure > > bike there's something to be said for the stone-axe-simple approach > of > > the KLR, which avoids frou-frou like fuel injection and ABS in favor > > of simple stuff that's fairly easy to field-strip and repair... > > > > -E > > > > Well...not really > There is a mod for the BMW mess which puts that filter outside the > tank, used by the IBR guys and those heading outback. Take a lookat > most cars, they have the fuel filter mounted on the frame several > feet forward of the tank/ pump. There are of course exceptions, but > most vehicles have a frame rail mounted filter. Many newer- 2006+ > vehicles have only in tank, but that's largely uhmerikin made stuff. > I just yesterday changed the filter on an '05 F150- frame filter. > Last week am '03 Hyundia- intank filter. Engineering outside > uhmerikah dictates that one installs an access port in the vehicle > body to access the in tank fuel pump & filter, instead of pulling the > tank and changing thigs on the dirt. My MotoGuzzi '00 Jackal has the > filter and pump mounted outside the tank- fuel infected too! That > bike does defy Fizzics though. > Shane >

[Eric Rickel]

I had one get a small split and leak on the exhaust of my old S10 pickup. -------Original Message------- From: mbetcher Date: 11/18/2007 9:20:30 AM To: DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com Subject: [DSN_KLR650] Re: NKLR: Jeff Saline.. (any everyone else), BMW question Shane is correct. I did the external fuel filter mod on mine when I had the tank off and the innards pulled out. There's absolutely no reason why BMW could not have placed the filter in exactly the same -- and accessible -- place where I and legions of other GS owners have put it. The only possible practical explanation is that BMW engineers feared that the filter could burst under the 46psi pressure and cause a fireball if the filter were outside the tank. Uhhh...but when's the last time you heard of a metal-bodied filter bursting? - In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, "Shane" wrote:

> > --- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, "E.L. Green" wrote: > > > > --- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, "mbetcher" wrote: > > > there are about a million of them, but this was one of my > favorites: > > > the fuel filter is INSIDE the gas tank. > > > > This, unfortunately, is the case for all fuel injected vehicles, > > regardless of how many wheels they have. The problem is called, > > technically, "cavitation". Apparently the fuel pump must be inside > the > > gas tank (or immediately outside it) in order to properly feed high > > pressure into the fuel line for the fuel injectors, otherwise it > > cannot suck enough pressure because of cavitation. And of course the > > fuel filter has to be on the fuel side of the fuel pump, makes no > > sense to have it on the injector side of the fuel pump. Result: On > all > > modern vehicles (i.e. those with fuel injection), the fuel filter is > > inside the gas tank and is a PITA to change. > > > > We're talking about fundamental laws of physics, so there isn't > > anything to be done about it. It's not that BMW sat down to decide > > "oh, we want to make things hard for our customers", it's a > > fundamental feature of all fuel-injected vehicles. For an adventure > > bike there's something to be said for the stone-axe-simple approach > of > > the KLR, which avoids frou-frou like fuel injection and ABS in favor > > of simple stuff that's fairly easy to field-strip and repair... > > > > -E > > > > Well...not really > There is a mod for the BMW mess which puts that filter outside the > tank, used by the IBR guys and those heading outback. Take a lookat > most cars, they have the fuel filter mounted on the frame several > feet forward of the tank/ pump. There are of course exceptions, but > most vehicles have a frame rail mounted filter. Many newer- 2006+ > vehicles have only in tank, but that's largely uhmerikin made stuff. > I just yesterday changed the filter on an '05 F150- frame filter. > Last week am '03 Hyundia- intank filter. Engineering outside > uhmerikah dictates that one installs an access port in the vehicle > body to access the in tank fuel pump & filter, instead of pulling the > tank and changing thigs on the dirt. My MotoGuzzi '00 Jackal has the > filter and pump mounted outside the tank- fuel infected too! That > bike does defy Fizzics though. > Shane >

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[E.L. Green]

--- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, "W.V. Doran" wrote:

> > I installed a Martel Brothers Performance external fuel filter on my

95 R1100GS over 10 years ago...it has worked perfectly. MBP is no longer in business but other filters that work are available. Google Martel Brothers Performance you will most likely find what you need.The article below covers the task well.

> http://www.ibmwr.org/r-tech/oilheads/extern_fuel_filter.shtml

Which, as I point out, puts the filter *after* the fuel pump. Which protects the injectors, but not the fuel pump, and since the BMW fuel pump is not pressure-corrected (the reason why you need a return hose) risks bursting the filter if it clogs. So you can do it. You can jump off the Golden Gate Bridge, for that matter. It doesn't mean that it's a wise thing to do though. You may be willing to live with the (admittedly small) risk of a bursting filter. But it would be insanity for BMW to do so. The real solution is as someone else mentioned -- design it easy to change the friggin' filter even if it's still in the tank. You ought to be able to take out the tank, plug the vent ports, flip it on the side opposite the pump, and just pull the whole assembly out of the side of the tank with minimal loss of gasoline. I did that with my KLR when I fixed the petcock the other day, no big deal, lost maybe a few teaspoons of gas. Of course, if the reason you're doing this is bad gas in the first place... The moment BMW went with fuel injection they brought these complications upon themselves. Unfortunately given Euro emissions laws (which are much tighter for motorcycles than here in the US), they didn't have much choice. BMW can be blasted for making it hard to change fuel filters, but not for where they chose to put it. Every auto with high-pressure fuel injection does that too, whether you're talking the Jeep Wrangler TJ or the Saab 300 or whatever. As for me, I'm stickin' with my stone-axe-simple KLR, so it doesn't matter to me. I just don't like folks being blasted for doing the sensible thing. Blast BMW for making it hard to change the filter, not for where they put it, which is the same place that everybody else doing high-pressure fuel injection puts it, for the same reasons.