fuel line

[ltslpr]

--- In DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com, "Eric" wrote:

> > Glenn- The bike runs like a bat outta hell, just won't idle without > the choke on. With the choke on it fires right up. I've ridden it > around with the choke on and with it off and it runs great. With it > off, even if you try to hold the idle at about 1000 rpm it's pretty > rough though. I've cleaned the carb thouroghly, soaked it, blown it > out, no parts left over, started the pilot at two turns out, tried > less and more with virtually no effect. New hose to petcock > diaphragm, rebuilt petcock, (petcock diaphragm seems intact, even if > it wasn't, I've plugged that hose and there's no change) new plug > gapped at .032, old plug looked like some gas had gotten up on the > threads and laquered up, but it runs axactly the same with the new > plug... Air filter is clean... What timing issues might I have?? > I have a Factory Service Manual coming, but until it gets here you > guys are it. : ) I tend to think it's not timing though, just > because it ran fine before it sat... > ~Eric S.

"What timing issues might I have??" Eric, The KLR has a CDI (Capacitor Discharge Ignition) system; it has no mechanical parts, no periodic maintenance is required or possible. If there is a problem with the bike's ignition, the problem resides in the CDI unit or the exciter or the pickup coil. Since you have proper firing at high rpms, there is no problem with the exciter or the pickup coil. For that same reason it is doubtful you have a problem with the CDI. For proper combustion you need, as you know, the correct fuel/air mixture and a spark at the proper time. Strong running at high rpms indicates proper fuel/air mixture and spark under those conditions. What changes at idle? Your timing is less advanced, and the carb is using the idle circuit only. Your bike starts with the choke applied, providing a richer fuel/air mixture: that proves you do not have a timing issue. It also proves your engine is being provided insufficient fuel from the idle circuit. If you are certain you have no air intake leaks, which would have much greater affect at idle than running at high rpm, I can only recommend revisiting cleaning the carb, especially using the electrical-wire method another lister and I have recommended, and blowing out all passages with carb cleaner followed by compressed air. Make sure you clean all areas/holes, as the internals of the carb are labyrinthian. One last thought is, perhaps, the end point of the fuel/air screw has broken off and is plugging the orifice, making your adjustments at the screw head futile, and leaving you with a very lean mixture. Glenn San Jose, Ca.

[Glenn]

No tube? Make sure the nipple the tube connects to isn't blocked by junk and then attach a new tube. If you are absolutely positive you are getting fuel, the pilot circuit is clear, and your gas is fresh, check your vacuum diaphragm. Check to see that the rubber diaphragm is not pinched or torn, as that too would cause what you are experiencing. -- Glenn http://www.klr650.net

--- In DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com, "Eric" wrote: > > Well, I can assure you it's not a blocked vent tube... it > doesn't have one. the port is wide open. Now correct me (or slap > me) if I'm wrong, but I wouldn't think that the absence of the hose > would cause it not to idle... > The carb has been reduced to its basic parts and soaked in real > carb cleaner and blown out. I can blow through the pilot circuit > with my mouth. > I have set the pilot screw at two turns out, and at three turns > out. Either way, I can turn the thumb screw on the throttle linkage > ALL THE WAY IN and still be 1/16" away from getting it to idle. > ~Eric S. > > > > --- In DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn" wrote: > > > > Okay, let me try this again as my reply was lost. > > If your bike will not idle without choke and it runs fine at > higher > > RPM you have a fuel delivery problem. This could be caused by > either > > blockage in the pilot circuit or a kinked/melted carb vent tube. > > Check the clearish pink tube which connects to the carb that goes > > down along the shock for any kinks or obstructions. > > Remove the pilot screw completely and spray a generous amount of > carb > > cleaner in there and then re-install the screw. Tighten the screw > > until you feel it start to seat, do-not tighten it. Turn the screw > > back out 2.5 turns total and the bike should run. > > If the bike has been sitting a while (you did not specify) top up > the > > tank with fresh gasoline and put in a bottle of heet water remover. > > > > There aren't many thing that will prevent the bike from idling, > and > > when you clean out the carburetor make sure to use good carburetor > > cleaner, not WD-40, it's not carb cleaner it's a lubricant. Carb > > cleaner will break up any dirt inside the carb and it will blow it > > right out because it comes out at a high velocity. > > > > Glenn (Texas) > > http://www.KLR650.NET > > > > --- In DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com, "Eric" wrote: > > > > > > Glenn- The bike runs like a bat outta hell, just won't idle > without > > > the choke on. With the choke on it fires right up. I've ridden > it > > > around with the choke on and with it off and it runs great. > With > > it > > > off, even if you try to hold the idle at about 1000 rpm it's > pretty > > > rough though. I've cleaned the carb thouroghly, soaked it, > blown > > it > > > out, no parts left over, started the pilot at two turns out, > tried > > > less and more with virtually no effect. New hose to petcock > > > diaphragm, rebuilt petcock, (petcock diaphragm seems intact, > even > > if > > > it wasn't, I've plugged that hose and there's no change) new > plug > > > gapped at .032, old plug looked like some gas had gotten up on > the > > > threads and laquered up, but it runs axactly the same with the > new > > > plug... Air filter is clean... What timing issues might I > have?? > > > I have a Factory Service Manual coming, but until it gets here > you > > > guys are it. : ) I tend to think it's not timing though, > just > > > because it ran fine before it sat... > > > ~Eric S.

[Eric]

I really appriciate all your help. Yeah, I know the basics... but you know, sometimes it requires someone saying "Hey look, dummy! It's like this..." : ) I suppose since the bike is getting up there in years I should just go ahead and buy a new engine-side boot, and while I'm at it I might as well grab a new pilot screw (can't be TOO terribly expensive, can it...?) just to rule that out... ~Eric

> > The KLR has a CDI (Capacitor Discharge Ignition) system; it has no > mechanical parts, no periodic maintenance is required or possible. > > If there is a problem with the bike's ignition, the problem

resides in

> the CDI unit or the exciter or the pickup coil. Since you have

proper

> firing at high rpms, there is no problem with the exciter or the > pickup coil. For that same reason it is doubtful you have a problem > with the CDI. > > For proper combustion you need, as you know, the correct fuel/air > mixture and a spark at the proper time. Strong running at high rpms > indicates proper fuel/air mixture and spark under those conditions. > What changes at idle? Your timing is less advanced, and the carb is > using the idle circuit only. Your bike starts with the choke

applied,

> providing a richer fuel/air mixture: that proves you do not have a > timing issue. It also proves your engine is being provided > insufficient fuel from the idle circuit. > > If you are certain you have no air intake leaks, which would have

much

> greater affect at idle than running at high rpm, I can only

recommend

> revisiting cleaning the carb, especially using the electrical-wire > method another lister and I have recommended, and blowing out all > passages with carb cleaner followed by compressed air. Make sure

you

> clean all areas/holes, as the internals of the carb are

labyrinthian.

> > One last thought is, perhaps, the end point of the fuel/air screw

has

> broken off and is plugging the orifice, making your adjustments at

the

> screw head futile, and leaving you with a very lean mixture. > > Glenn > San Jose, Ca.

[dumbazz_650]

--- In DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com, "Eric" wrote:

> > I really appriciate all your help. Yeah, I know the basics... but > you know, sometimes it requires someone saying "Hey look, dummy! > It's like this..." : ) I suppose since the bike is getting up > there in years I should just go ahead and buy a new engine-side > boot, and while I'm at it I might as well grab a new pilot screw > (can't be TOO terribly expensive, can it...?) just to rule that > out... > ~Eric >

Did you check the air feed hole that leads to the pilot circuit? If this is clogged you may not be able to get fuel into the rest of the idle circuit. Okay, you are confident that the pilot circuit is free of any obstructions or debris, the pilot air intake is free flowing, and the pilot jet is clean and free flowing. Right? As a last resort I would suggest checking and resetting the float level (okay, this is kinda remote). The pickup for the main jet is lower than the pilot jet. This would allow the bike to run at speed but not idle. This would explain how it idles when you have the choke on, as the choke is actually an enricher circuit that adds extra fuel for cold start conditions. Sometimes, you begin to question your sanity and the basics of physics, when even the fundamentals seem to be going wrong. Usually works out if you're diligent. Otherwise, ping me to arrange for salvage pricing on your scooter. MarkB 8^)

[April Neave & Norm Keller]

In the spirit of trying to help: Since the main circuit seems to function normally and the choke also, it seems quite likely that the idle circuit is the culprit. As several posts indicated it sounds like you have a lean condition which would be due to either air entering the intake after the throttle valve such as due to a vacuum leak or lean condition due to insufficient fuel delivery. It sounds like you have covered the bases regarding intake leaks (diaphragm, mounting hose, etc.) so I suggest that you dig into the carb a bit more. You indicated that the bike sat for some time which is likely to allow fuel to oxidize, thus forming lacquer, gum and or varnish. In the old days carb cleaner were very effective but also very nasty. New carb cleaners are unlikely to affect the environment or remove tough carb deposits. Spray carb cleaners can be even a poorer choice than products like Gunk "Hydro-Seal". Due to the small size of the idle passages it is most common for the idle circuit to be most affected by carburetor deposits. Another issue is that idle circuits in motorcycle carbs are usually longer than the main metering circuit making for more likely issues. I suggest that you strip the carb again (groan) and attempt to trace the idle circuit. If you are able to remove the "pilot jet" which is recessed in the centre so much the better but be aware that these kinds of carb fittings can be seized tighter than excrement to a woolly blanket. Remove the idle adjustment screw. Using high pressure air and a rubber tipped nozzle blast the passages from both ends. Next try inverting the carb and putting a bit of water into the idle screw bore. A pit of air should result in the water coming out of both ends of the passage. Water should be evident from the pilot jet bore in the float chamber and from the idle and bypass holes in the carb bore. Blowing water through the pilot jet recess should result in water from the pilot air jet in the inlet end of the air horn and from the idle adjustment needle bore. Make sure that these passages are open! It is simply amazing that endless amounts of soaking and air can fail to open the tiny idle passages of motorcycle and air cooled engine carbs! I have had to dig hard deposits out, bit by bit by use of tag wire, small drill bits and such until the passage would flow properly. Many times it is impossible to clear these small carb passages. You might wish to get some "gun wash" from a painter in a body shop as it is very nasty and made to remove lacquers and such. I've had some success with gun wash when the new generation carb cleaners have failed. A common problem with small outboards is for someone to over tighten the idle air screw into the seat and jam the tapered end of the needle such that the tip ans off and plugs the bore. These can be a real problem to remove and may result in a cracked carb. Make sure that the needle isn't snapped off and that the bore is clear. Do you have access to another KLR which can act as a parts substitute? If so try swapping carbs and see if the problem remains with your bike or moves with the carb. Make sure you try both carbs on both bikes! The bad news is that you may simply not be able to clear the idle passages. If you have time and tenacity and are willing to work with care, you should succeed although you may have to consider going beyond normal bounds. In other words, you may have to go so far as to drill out the gallery plugs in the idle circuit to clear the passages. Some investigation will show that the idle circuit passages are formed from a series of straight drilled passages which intersect. The ends of some of these passages are closed by drive plugs which can be drilled out to allow the passages to be cleared. This is, as I said, beyond normal bounds of practice but requires care rather than rocket science. It is not practiced in shops because the time and care required are not available. Drilling steel drive plugs out of soft pot metal carb bodies is not for the unskilled or faint of heart. I urge you to try swapping with another KLR to confirm the problem lies in the carb. HIH Norm

[joelprude]

bought new 06 from dealer. first 6 rides great, on 7th at 200 miles, after 12 miles of 3-4k rpm wouldn't idle and quit at stop. much fiddling w/ throttle then ran above 3k rpm but quit 2 times at stops before home. cleaned plug which was sooty as if running very rich. couldn't start w/o much throttle fiddling and refused to idle over next 2 days. trailer to dealer and left town on business. 3 days later he reported that it started fine, ran well and could find nothing wrong. next 18 rides fine and now has 800m on odo. did the t mod, shimmed the needle w/ #4 ss washer, backed out the pilot screw 2.5 turns (from 1.5 factory).checked valves and ok. today ran fine for 8 easy miles then refused to idle. plenty of gas, no vacuum on tank, turned fuel valve to res just in case, choke absolutely off. limped home at 3k+rpm and now won't start easily and won't idle. no binding in hoses, cables are free, vent to tank clear as is hose. will run above 2.5k rpm and above in neutral in basement but hard to start and won't idle. any and all suggestions are geatly appreciated. stuck float valve?

[Chris Jennings]

Maybe drain the float bowl?

On 2/3/06, joelprude wrote: > > bought new 06 from dealer. first 6 rides great, on 7th at 200 miles, > after 12 miles of 3-4k rpm wouldn't idle and quit at stop. much > fiddling w/ throttle then ran above 3k rpm but quit 2 times at stops > before home. cleaned plug which was sooty as if running very rich. > couldn't start w/o much throttle fiddling and refused to idle over > next 2 days. trailer to dealer and left town on business. 3 days later > he reported that it started fine, ran well and could find nothing > wrong. next 18 rides fine and now has 800m on odo. did the t mod, > shimmed the needle w/ #4 ss washer, backed out the pilot screw 2.5 > turns (from 1.5 factory).checked valves and ok. today ran fine for 8 > easy miles then refused to idle. plenty of gas, no vacuum on tank, > turned fuel valve to res just in case, choke absolutely off. limped > home at 3k+rpm and now won't start easily and won't idle. no binding > in hoses, cables are free, vent to tank clear as is hose. will run > above 2.5k rpm and above in neutral in basement but hard to start and > won't idle. any and all suggestions are geatly appreciated. stuck > float valve? > > > > > > Archive Quicksearch at: > http://www.angelfire.com/ut/moab/klr650_data_search.html > List sponsored by Dual Sport News at: www.dualsportnews.com > List FAQ courtesy of Chris Krok at: www.bigcee.com/klr650faq.html > Member Map at: http://www.frappr.com/dsnklr650 > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[wannabsmooth1]

--- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, "joelprude" wrote:

> > bought new 06 from dealer. first 6 rides great, on 7th at 200 miles, > after 12 miles of 3-4k rpm wouldn't idle and quit at stop. much > fiddling w/ throttle then ran above 3k rpm but quit 2 times at stops > before home. cleaned plug which was sooty as if running very rich. > couldn't start w/o much throttle fiddling and refused to idle over > next 2 days. trailer to dealer and left town on business. 3 days later > he reported that it started fine, ran well and could find nothing > wrong. next 18 rides fine and now has 800m on odo. did the t mod, > shimmed the needle w/ #4 ss washer, backed out the pilot screw 2.5 > turns (from 1.5 factory).checked valves and ok. today ran fine for 8 > easy miles then refused to idle. plenty of gas, no vacuum on tank, > turned fuel valve to res just in case, choke absolutely off. limped > home at 3k+rpm and now won't start easily and won't idle. no binding > in hoses, cables are free, vent to tank clear as is hose. will run > above 2.5k rpm and above in neutral in basement but hard to start and > won't idle. any and all suggestions are geatly appreciated. stuck > float valve?

I've found a teeny - very hard to see - spec in the needle seat on a couple of bikes, even new like yours. Again - so small very hard to see. It caused issues like your bike - exactly. Hope this helps, Mike

[dr_coady]

This is a long post but I am trying to cover all bases to help pinpoint the problem I am having a major problem with my bike that I can't figure out. It won't idle. I have been doing a whole lot of work on it for the past 3 months including upgrading balancer system with the new solid sprockets, new front balancer shaft bearings, new doohickey, spring, bolt. I also replaced the large starter gear the spins on the crankshaft with a used one because the "fins" on the back of mine had been mangled. Also replaced clutch cover gasket, h2o pumps oil and mechanical seals, etc. I also checked the valve clearance and timing and cleaned the carburetor while doing all the other work. I recheck the valve clearance and timing after finishing all the balancer work and sealing it back up. At some point after doing all the major work for the balancer system I took the bike for a test ride. It was rough starting, and ran a little rought, and it would idle then. It was backfiring after getting on the throttle hard and then letting if off quickly. I replaced the copper header pipe exhaust gasket, tighten the muffler to exhaust pipe clamp, plus had to take off generator cover to replace that gasket that was leaking. I also turned carb, pulled out idle screw, spring, washer (forgot about o-ring) and sprayed some cleaner and compressed air in there. Put everything back together and it wouldn't idle It would start (weakly) with choke (enricher) on but as soon as I shut choke off it would die. I then pulled carb completely, cleaned it again, and realized that idle screw o-ring was missing. I got a new o-ring from Kawasaki installed it, set idle screw to what it had been before problem started and put carb back in. Still had the same problem. I tried adjusting the idle screw both in and out (from about 1 to 3 turns out) with no effect. I tried adjusting the idle speed. It seems to do best with idle speed screw back all the way out. I pulled the carb again and cleaned it and blew air through all passages. I ran a thin wire through all passage, except the one the goes from the idle screw hole to the pilot jet hole because I couldn't get it in there. But if I plug off pilot jet hole in bowl, idle screw hole and the coasting enricher hole (under the coaster diaphragm), which i think are all the passages that use the pilot system and blow air through, it seems to blow clear through the pilot holes in the engine side of the carb I have checked and adjusted the fuel level. I have sprayed water on the carb to engine boot/holder while engine was running to try to eliminate an air leak there but nothing changed. So the bike will start with the choke/enricher on, but even with it all the way out, the engine will only get to about 3,000 rpms. As soon as I close the choke it will die. If I open the throttle with the enricher on, the engine will die. I can get it started by feathering the throttle a bit but it will die as soon as I close the throttle. And there is quite a bit of popping when it is running while feathering the throttle. I can start it with the enricher on, competely cover the air box intake, shut off the enricher and the bike will idle, but very very roughly. The bike heats up very very quickly when it is running. It seems as though the pilot/idle system is just not working at all. Or maybe I have a intake leak somewhere. The vacuum petcock hose seems okay but I haven't replaced it. Enricher cable, plunger, nut and rubber boot all seem okay. Anyone have any ideas? I have about had it. The carb has been in and out about 10 times in the past month. Any help would be appreciated. I wish I had access to a working spare carb to put in and to make find out if it is just a carb problem. Everything is stock with the carb. No mods have been done except to adjust idle screw. Exhaust is also stock as well as the airbox and air filter. The bike is a A1 with 27k on it. I have had it for 5 years. It was severly neglected when I got it. Dan

[Jeff Saline]

Listers, I think the fuel line is 7mm id. I've been using cloth covered fuel line with good results. You can get a meter of it at: http://tinyurl.com/s456o This is Eurotech Motorsports in CA. I've had good dealings with them over the past 7 years. http://www.eurotechmotorsports.com That should be enough to do 3 KLRs. It's kind of pricey but I don't mind paying for something that works. If you have a local import shop that does European vehicles they may have it also. My local supplier went out of business last winter. Even the VW dealership in town doesn't have it or know where to get it. Best, Jeff Saline ABC # 4412 South Dakota Airmarshal Airheads Beemer Club www.airheads.org The Beautiful Black Hills of South Dakota 75 R90/6, 03 KLR650, 79 R100RT [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]