what's a doohickey then?

[Blake Sobiloff]

On Feb 26, 2006, at 2:17 AM, symme7ry wrote:

> Is the benefit of getting a bike which I can practice with on dirt > (so I can be familiar with limits of traction, etc) greater than the > benefit of getting a low-powered sportbike (so I can get familiar > with the sportbike riding style early), if my ultime goal is 100% on- > road, fast sportbike riding (but not at race tracks, unless just to > practice)?

As others pointed out, the safest place to ride fast IS the track, and many of the really good riders ride dirt as well as street because it's easier to find dirt to ride and slide in than it is to book time at a track day. I have quite a few friends who are amateur racers here in CA and they all bought cheap dirt bikes (XR100's) after a year or two of racing because it was a lot safer and less expensive to experiment with bike dynamics and practice in the dirt. The KLR would be a pretty hefty beast to practice sliding in the dirt, but it could be done. Also, whatever you do, don't buy new for your first bike. You'll take too big a hit on the depreciation and insurance, and you'll be depressed when you ding it up. Buy a nice, but used, bike. I started on a Yamaha Seca II (air-cooled 600cc) and thought its minimal plastic and moderate power, plus its naked sportbike look, were great for me. The other competitor for my first bike dollars was a Suzuki Bandit. A little more power (water cooled, IIRC), but of the bikes I had to choose from the Seca II was cleaner and less expensive. -- Blake Sobiloff http://sobiloff.typepad.com/> San Jose, CA (USA)

[klr6501995]

nothing like learning by falling a lot. that is where the dirt bike comes in. I used to think I was 100% alert and aware in a rx-7 sport car then switched over to a bike, I felt like 80%. Make sense ? instant on throttle hurts you in scary situations or playing. really your biggest problem as a new rider is going to be the stupid asses . blind and mean cagers. on my routes, i have figured out that driving like a old dude in the nissan p/u , and riding like I stole it on the klr, I make a 20 mile trip in evening rush hour at the same time. go figure. only real difference in style is accereration and braking. no weaving. just plotting. good luck on your bike choice!

--- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, "Andy Kirby" wrote: > > The differences you describe between the bikes are exactly what you would > expect from a big old single vs. and turbine smooth UJM 4 cylinder, they are > characteristic of each layout. > > It does not sound like the KLR is what you are looking for, as a starter > bike I don't feel you can beat the Suzuki SV650 but that is just my opinion, > the Wee Strom would probably be better for you, ergonomically. I'm not a > huge fan of the race reps. too specialized for the riding I do but for a > starter bike some of the tuned for torque naked street bikes are good to > learn on, the ZRX1100 is an excellent bike, I used mine for daily commutes, > two up dairy queen trips and an Iron Butt ride but as in all things you pays > your money and makes your choice. > > Good luck with whatever you decide. > > Andy > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "symme7ry" > To: DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2006 5:17 AM > Subject: [DSN_KLR650] thoughts after test-rides, FZ6 and KLR650 > > > > > > First of all, thank you very much to everyone who replied to my > > earlier post. > > > > Today I got a chance to test both of these bikes. I rode them only > > in residential areas, less than 35 mph and no higher than 3rd gear. > > The experience leads me to a specific question at the end of this > > post. Here are my impressions: > > > > -Throttle in first gear on the KLR seems less continuous than on the > > FZ6. On the KLR I'd try to go slow in first gear, then I'd try to > > increase the throttle a little bit and I would always get a sudden > > jerk. I noticed this happening on 1st gear on the dual sport (yamaha > > XT) that I rode in the MSF class too. With both of those dualsports > > the throttle seems to roll on smoother in higher gears. This may be > > just because I am new and lack precise throttle control, but for > > some reason it felt much smoother on the FZ6 (I did try the FZ6 > > after the KLR, so maybe I was just better at it by then). > > > > -the KLR650 is extremely comfortable in terms of ergonomics, the FZ6 > > seemed a bit less comfortable (basically just the seat), but not > > that bad. > > > > -KLR650 seemed to vibrate much more, making the mirrors shake and > > hard to use. I've seen comments about this in this forum so I > > expected it, but not to that degree and not at such low speeds. It > > seems like there is no speed (0-35) on the KLR that is more smooth > > than any speed I tried (0-35) on the FZ6. > > > > -Maybe it is because I was sort of expecting this, but the FZ6 felt > > more fun to drive, I think partially because it gave more of a sense > > of speed. On the KLR when I got to around 35mph I wasn't really > > nervous. I didn't seem to be going that fast. On the FZ6 I would > > think I was going 40mph and look down and the speedometer said 25. > > Maybe because the ride is lower to the ground? Whatever it was, it > > felt a lot less like a bicycle and I must admit the knowledge that I > > COULD open up the throttle and unleash all sorts of scary power if I > > wanted to (which I didn't, and don't plan to for a while) was > > exciting. Even if I never use that power, just the knowledge that it > > is there seems to add to the enjoyment of the ride for me. > > > > > > ...However, I take the comments that the FZ6 can get me into trouble > > seriously. Supposedly it delivers 84 horsepower to the rear wheel > > and has a 140mph top speed. The thing is though, I felt completely > > in control of the FZ6 when testing it so it is hard to resist the > > belief that I could always do that. (Something giving a false sense > > of security could be that the FZ6 engine is designed to have its > > power at high RPM, and I was riding at fairly low RPM) > > > > On the one hand, I think I should just listen to the advice of those > > that say the FZ6 is too powerful since I realize I really know very > > little about motorcycling. > > > > On the other, the sense of power and smoothness that the FZ6 gave > > seems almost too nice for me to deny myself for a year or more > > (UNLESS... see question below). > > > > I suppose I could always compromise by looking into the vstrom > > DL650, or a underpowered sportbike like the GS500F (but I am 6'3 so > > I think my options are somewhat limited). > > > > I neglected to mention in my other post that my ultimate goal in > > motorcycling is to get to the point where I can handle a high- > > performance sport bike. In my earlier thread people mentioned the > > benefits of learning on dirt (getting comfortable with the limits of > > your traction, etc), but here is my question which I think is > > determinative of whether I get a KLR: > > > > Is the benefit of getting a bike which I can practice with on dirt > > (so I can be familiar with limits of traction, etc) greater than the > > benefit of getting a low-powered sportbike (so I can get familiar > > with the sportbike riding style early), if my ultime goal is 100% on- > > road, fast sportbike riding (but not at race tracks, unless just to > > practice)? > > > > Thanks again, > > Elliot > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Archive Quicksearch at: > > http://www.angelfire.com/ut/moab/klr650_data_search.html > > List sponsored by Dual Sport News at: www.dualsportnews.com > > List FAQ courtesy of Chris Krok at: www.bigcee.com/klr650faq.html > > Member Map at: http://www.frappr.com/dsnklr650 > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

[klr6501995]

way excellent advice. ditto on the below

--- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, "Randy Shultz" wrote: > > --- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, "symme7ry" wrote: > > > Is the benefit of getting a bike which I can practice with on dirt > (so I can be familiar with limits of traction, etc) greater than the > benefit of getting a low-powered sportbike (so I can get familiar > with the sportbike riding style early), if my ultime goal is 100% on- > road, fast sportbike riding (but not at race tracks, unless just to > practice)? > > > --- > > I know that I would have been a better street rider sooner if I had > learned on dirt first, and also if I had learned on a lower-powered > bike. That said, there are lower powered sport-oriented bikes that I > think are good starter bikes, such as Kawasaki's EX250 and EX500, or > Suzuki's GS500, with the exception that they are faired which makes > repairs more expensive after drops. I ride a Suzuki SV650, and > Kawasaki just came out with a similar 650 as someone previously > mentioned. I think it would be better to go lower power than that to > start off, but I've heard others say differently. > > I dropped my SV650 when I was learning to ride on the street. It was > actually the unfamiliarity with the engine braking power of a twin at > low speed that led to me breaking loose the rear tire in a turn. I > lost track of which gear I was downshifting into, thinking I was a > gear higher, and shouldn't have been downshifting in a turn anyway. > It's often a combination of errors that gets one into trouble when > learning. Highsided at about 25mph into cross traffic. Not fun. > > In terms of your long-term plans, it's this statement that I would > think about: "my ultime goal is 100% on-road, fast sportbike riding > (but not at race tracks..." > > The problem is that today's sportbikes are extremely powerful. I ride > a ZZR1200, which is actually a sport tourer, about 135 horsepower, so > I know the appeal of power. But where can you ride them to their > designed potential legally? Where can you do it safely? > > I see an awful lot of people riding irresponsibly on the street. > I'll bet they are not as mature as you sound, but I've also seen > people influenced by their riding buddies, or other factors, and it > only takes once to seriously injure yourself or someone else. It > also doesn't take many tickets to price a young fellow out of the > insurance market. > > The track is actually the BEST, and in my opinion the only place to > exercise the capabilities of today's sport bikes, so I would suggest > that you reconsider your long term goal in that regards. > > As you intimated in your post-test report, it's actually more fun to > ride a lower-powered bike at lower speeds, than a higher-powered bike > at low speeds. If you're going to ride responsibly on the street, > staying within reasonable speeds, you may well find that a lower > powered sport bike is more fun than a higher-powered bike that is > mismatched to the conditions (over-powered). > > This seems to be better understood outside the U.S., as the number of > sport bikes in the 350-500cc range are far more plentiful in Europe. > Some of that probably has to do with tiered-licensing and higher- cost > fuel, but I suspect a lot of it has to do with more familiarity with > lower-powered bikes and a lack of "bigger is always better" attitude. > > If you have been forced to ride smaller displacement bikes by tiered- > licensing then, by default, you know how much fun they can be. If > you start with a high-powered 600cc supersport bike, as is so often > the case here in the States, you tend to look down on smaller > displacement without really having any personal experience with > them. > > I'm generalizing of course. But it is interesting how many > knowledgable riders keep small and mid-displacement bikes in their > stable even after they are legally, financially, and technically able > to ride anything they want. There's a reason for that, and it's > because they are so frickin' fun to ride and so appropriate for the > street conditions in which most of us do the majority of our riding. > > Have you considered a Supermoto? Suzuki makes a production one based > on their 400cc dualsport, and I think you're going to see a lot more > manufacturers starting to build them. Plus you could always convert > a dual sport to supermoto yourself. That way you could ride a little > dirt while learning, and later have a street-oriented bike that > absolutely excels at legal speeds. Tons of fun. > > Just my thoughts. > > Randy >

[John Kokola]

Agreed ... the FZ6 is a great bike, 'detuned' for midrange power, plenty of torque down low too. Easy to ride around town. Upright seating position (maybe not quite as bolt upright as a KLR). Lower ride height and much better brakes than a KLR to boot. I rode one once and liked it A LOT, but then again I root for the underdog (hence my affinity for '88-'91 Honda Hawks, for example). I would say that the FZ6 would be a great modern 'starter' bike that wouldn't be grown out of right away. I've got an F3 for track use only and can't imagine doing 3000 mile weeks on it (though I have done just that on my old CBR1000F). --John Kokola JMO Tony Jones wrote:

> >The Hurricane/CBR600/F2/F3/F4 lineage were extremely capable bikes and >the FZ6 has much better ergo's than these did. I did many a 3000 mile >week on my old F2. Someone else mentioned the SV-650, thats a great >bike too. Probably in the $2k range used now. >

[Michael Silverstein]

I learned to ride on a dirt bike as a teenager in the 70's. Shortly after getting my drivers' license I traded my dirt bike for a street bike and spent my afternoons after school trying to scrape the paint off the pegs. One day I went into a hairpin too fast and the back wheel started to go out from under me. Without even thinking I must have automatically gone into dirt-track power slide mode because somehow I rode it out pitched sideways without any ill effects, except for leaving a big black streak on the road. I don't think I could have done that if I hadn't spent all those hours previously in the dirt, because my reaction was totally reflexive. Mike A18

> > ultimate goal in motorcycling is to handle a high-performance sport > > bike. > > people mentioned the benefits of learning on dirt > > Most of the successful road racers all started doing dirt > track, speedway or similar.

-- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 268.1.0/269 - Release Date: 2/24/2006

[Jeff Saline]

Tony, You sure you want to call me out on the list? : ) Yeah, I saw the smiley face. : ) I'll beg to differ with you about that being a load of old crap. First it was written this morning so it's pretty fresh. Next, I don't think it's crap. Just my thoughts about his comment that the FZ6 riding position was less comfortable. They guy in OK thought his riding position was ok too. Until he tried it for 90 miles. I'd bet not too many folks buy bikes that they find uncomfortable to ride. And even if you can get by on a bike for short periods of time, maybe 30 minutes or so... a few hours in the saddle can prove unbearable. I'm betting your comments about riding an FZ6 for 600+ mile days is based on how it fits you. Just like tires, different bikes work better for different folks, based on how they feel about them. Hey, tell me about me wearing my "everything shiny and not a BMW must be a hardcore sportbike blinkers" thoughts. I'd like to hear about that. The newest BMW I own is a 1979. I like BMW Airheads for many of the same reasons I like KLR650s. I can work on them, they meet my needs for a ride and I can afford them. I don't think everything that's shiny is bad, or good. And I sure don't care what bike another guy rides as long as they don't expect me to ride the same thing. I sure wouldn't mind it if more folks started riding bikes with quieter exhausts though. But riding any bike is better than not riding a bike. So, just like you I have an opinion. Looks like yours and mine aren't the same on this. But I bet where we are the same is that we both hope Elliot gets a bike that works well for him and that he's able to stay alive on whatever it is he gets. Best, Jeff : ) Jeff Saline ABC # 4412 South Dakota Airmarshal Airheads Beemer Club www.airheads.org The Beautiful Black Hills of South Dakota 75 R90/6, 03 KLR650, 79 R100RT On Sun, 26 Feb 2006 17:02:52 -0000 "Tony Jones" writes:

> > You mentioned the riding position of the FZ6 as less comfortable > > but not that bad. That tells me you better not be planning on > being > > on that bike for extended periods of time. The not that bad will > > become unbearable. > > Sorry Jeff but this is a load of old crap ) > > The FZ6 would be comfortable for 600+ mile days easily. Have you > actually looked at the pics let alone ridden one. > > You're story of your buddy in Wichita Falls would make sense if > Elliot > was considering a R6 or GSXR. You're wearing your everything shiny > and > not a BMW must be a hardcore sportbike blinkers here. > > The Hurricane/CBR600/F2/F3/F4 lineage were extremely capable bikes > and > the FZ6 has much better ergo's than these did. I did many a 3000 > mile > week on my old F2. Someone else mentioned the SV-650, thats a great > bike too. Probably in the $2k range used now. > > Tony

[Ed Chait]

> Just my thoughts about his comment that the FZ6 riding > position was less comfortable.

Maybe you're confusing the FZ6 with the R6. The FZ6 has a fairly upright seating position and is *very* comfortable for long rides for probably most anyone who has one. The R6, on the other hand, is for people younger than me:). ed A17

[Michael Silverstein]

FZ6: http://www.motorcycledaily.com/09september03_yamaha2004fz6.htm YZF-R6: http://www.motorcycledaily.com/20february06_06r6.html

> -----Original Message----- > From: DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ed Chait > Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2006 4:49 PM > To: tony@...; Jeff Saline > Cc: DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [DSN_KLR650] Re: thoughts after test-rides, FZ6 > and KLR650 > > > > > > > Just my thoughts about his comment that the FZ6 riding > position was > > less comfortable. > > > Maybe you're confusing the FZ6 with the R6. > > The FZ6 has a fairly upright seating position and is *very* > comfortable for > long rides for probably most anyone who has one. > > The R6, on the other hand, is for people younger than me:). > > ed > A17 > > > > > Archive Quicksearch at: > http://www.angelfire.com/ut/moab/klr650> _data_search.html > List > sponsored by Dual Sport News at: > www.dualsportnews.com > List FAQ courtesy of Chris Krok at: > www.bigcee.com/klr650faq.html Member Map at:

http://www.frappr.com/dsnklr650 Yahoo! Groups Links -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 268.1.0/269 - Release Date: 2/24/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 268.1.0/269 - Release Date: 2/24/2006

[Chris Shepard]

Mike You are 100% correct with you assessment. I am an off-roader that converted to street riding. You cannot teach a new person riding on the street what you have learned and experienced off-road handling a bike. Did you know that something like 80% of new sport bike riders that bought an aver 600cc bike with less then one years experience riding will lay it down within the first 6 months of owning the bike? I was told that by a representative of the Motorcycle Industry Council. I believe it. Chris -----Original Message-----

>From: Michael Silverstein >Sent: Feb 26, 2006 12:16 PM >To: 'Tony Jones' , DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com >Cc: elliotolds@... >Subject: RE: [DSN_KLR650] Re: thoughts after test-rides, FZ6 and KLR650 > >I learned to ride on a dirt bike as a teenager in the 70's. Shortly >after getting my drivers' license I traded my dirt bike for a street >bike and spent my afternoons after school trying to scrape the paint off >the pegs. One day I went into a hairpin too fast and the back wheel >started to go out from under me. Without even thinking I must have >automatically gone into dirt-track power slide mode because somehow I >rode it out pitched sideways without any ill effects, except for leaving >a big black streak on the road. I don't think I could have done that if >I hadn't spent all those hours previously in the dirt, because my >reaction was totally reflexive. > >Mike A18 > > >> > ultimate goal in motorcycling is to handle a high-performance sport >> > bike. >> > people mentioned the benefits of learning on dirt >> >> Most of the successful road racers all started doing dirt >> track, speedway or similar. > >-- >No virus found in this outgoing message. >Checked by AVG Free Edition. >Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 268.1.0/269 - Release Date: 2/24/2006 > > > > >Archive Quicksearch at: http://www.angelfire.com/ut/moab/klr650_data_search.html >List sponsored by Dual Sport News at: www.dualsportnews.com >List FAQ courtesy of Chris Krok at: www.bigcee.com/klr650faq.html >Member Map at: http://www.frappr.com/dsnklr650 >Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > >

[Tony JONES]

> You sure you want to call me out on the list? : )

Yes.

> Yeah, I saw the smiley face. : )

Good, you're a big guy. You can take it : You said:

> You mentioned the riding position of the FZ6 as less comfortable but not > that bad. That tells me you better not be planning on being on that bike for > extended periods of time. The not that bad will become unbearable.

and then went into some odd story about a guy from Oky and his sportbike. I once rode a friends TL1000 and after 75 miles I wanted to get off, but I wouldn't use that to assess a FZ6. Plus, you're clearly confused about what the FZ6 is. Tony