klr kaput (kontinued)

[klr6501995]

Not in the bottom of a sandy or mudddy draw. But, could the disharged battery be charged by pulling the plug and spinning the rear wheel in gear? I'd dang sure try it ,in a pinch. As I ride alone.

--- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, Jeff Saline wrote: > > > Luckily for us our bikes can be bump started so a dead battery isn't the > end of the ride. Maybe. : )

[Jeff Saline]

James, I missed the 1 volt ranges on the signal dynamics set up. If it provides a way to determine voltage I bet it works great. I don't think two LEDs are necessarily better than one volt signal increments. But I do think it's important to have a way of telling about what voltage the electrical system is at. I just took another look at the site you pointed us to last night. http://www.signaldynamics.com/products/Modules/HUVM.asp It doesn't really provide much information but it does have a picture with an explanation of the LEDs. Here's how I read it. Please correct me where I'm mistaken. Below 10v flashing red 10 - 11 v steady red 11 - 12 v steady amber 12 - 15 v steady green Above 15 v flashing green I still don't understand how the steady green LED provides useful information. If you'd like to try to explain it to me I'm interested in understanding your point. Right now I just don't get it. : ) Best, Jeff Saline ABC # 4412 South Dakota Airmarshal Airheads Beemer Club www.airheads.org The Beautiful Black Hills of South Dakota 75 R90/6, 03 KLR650, 79 R100RT On Wed, 14 Dec 2005 19:10:14 -0500 James Morrow Sr writes: SNIP

> I hope mine is working the same (G). As mentioned the signal > dynamics > shows 1 volt ranges. If you are not at 13.5 volts or above when > engine > running (above idle) your charging system is not working. When you > start > your bike, the starter loads battery to 9-10 volts > > I was just trying to figure out how you came to the conclusion that > two LEDS > were better than 1volt signal increments. > > -- > James Morrow Sr > Union, MO > '00' RT + dual plug + Bunkhouse > '00' BUSA + 15hp > '05' KLR650 + big fun factor

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[E.L. Green]

James Morrow Sr wrote:

> I was just trying to figure out how you came to the conclusion that > two LEDS were better than 1volt signal increments. >

Err, no, that was not my conclusion at all. In fact, I looked at the LM3914 chip that lights up an LED voltage bar. You can get already-made "bar-graph" type voltmeters that use this chip that are designed to mount on car dashboards, that would work fine on a KLR. I just don't have anyplace to easily mount one on my KLR, and decided to go with something simpler and more suited to the KLR's minimalistic nature. I also just finished designing a flasher mode for my design that will flash the green when the voltage goes above 14.9 volts, using another zener voltage ladder, a 555 timer, and an additional PNP transister. However, I do not believe I will ever build it or test it or publish it, because once you add a semiconductor chip to the thing, you might as well just go all the way and add a full-blown PIC chip with an A/D converter like a PIC12F675 which sells for $1.99 in quantity 1 at Jameco. And it'll drive the LED directly from its outputs without needing a transister. And be more reliable to boot, since adding a 3.3v or 5v regulator to power the PIC means it won't fry when the voltage spikes above 15v. Or buy it from http://www.signaldynamics.com/products/Modules/HUVM.asp already designed and programmed (believe me, you don't want to do PIC programming unless you must)... For the moment, I think I'll build the idiot light (sans flasher), just because I already have all the parts and pieces to do so, but certainly am not going to diss more complicated designs. -E

[Jud Jones]

--- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, "Rodney Copeland" wrote:

> > I wondered why my battery was so low on water one time. > I then remembered my 10 tipovers, many on the left side. > Then I bought a sealed battery! > Rod > >

I'd bet your battery boiled more water than it spilled.

[E.L. Green]

Jeff Saline wrote:

> 12 - 15 v steady green > Above 15 v flashing green > > I still don't understand how the steady green LED provides useful > information.

It is normal for an idling KLR with a heavy electrical load to drop down to a little over 12 volts. This doesn't mean your charging system has failed, this just means that you're running off the battery temporarily until you can get moving again. Going below 12 volts, on the other hand, is an indicator that you're sucking altogether too much energy out of the battery, either because you have too much electric gear turned on, or because your charging system has failed. If your charging system fails, the voltage will drop below 12 volts *quickly*. Did you perform the experiment I mentioned? Just turn the ignition key on, measure the voltage, and see how long it takes the headlight to pull the voltage below 12 volts? It won't take long. Don't allocate hours for the experiment. Allocate minutes. So basically the green light tells you, "a few minutes ago, my charging system was still working." Which is information. How useful, depends upon what you intend to do with it. Batteries are perverse things, and their behavior under load is akin to black art. There's theory, and then there's practice, which is limited by things like outgassing and cavitation, ion transfer speeds, internal resistances, etc. which detirmine what the discharge voltage curve will look like under a given load. I don't pretend to understand all this. I do think I've spent enough time instrumenting the #$%@# things to have a reasonable gut feel as to how they behave under usual loads, and that gut feel (backed up by what I've seen on the bench) says that if a 12v battery is under at least a moderate load and is at 12v or above, it still has a lot of juice left in it. Really, that's all that counts for our purposes. Having more information is always good (if you understand what the information means), but anything more complicated than the bar-graph voltmeter based on the LM3914 (available from a number of vendors) probably is of limited utility on the trail, since you aren't going to be reading any freakin' digits off a LED display if you're jouncing all over the place. -E

[Jeff Saline]

Eric, I'll try to work through your points. I'm talking lead acid batteries here since that's what comes in a KLR. Specialty batteries might be involved but I don't think anybody has identified one in this discussion. If other than automotive type batteries are in question I don't have experience with them. I took a look at the site you referenced ( http://www.homepower.com/files/battvoltandsoc.pdf ) but I don't know as it has much use in an automotive/motorcycle type application. I've got 30 years experience in vehicle maintenance and that's not a normal check of battery condition or state of charge. I'm not an engineer and don't design electrical systems. But I do have experience with troubleshooting and maintenance of vehicle electrical systems. I agree once the charging system quits working the battery will at sometime drop below 12 volts. How fast depends on the a multitude of variables but I agree, it will happen. Thanks for the offer for me to test my bike. I'll pass on your method. I think I would question your numbers again as I'm pretty sure the KLR batteries are 14 amp and the normal load on my bike was measured about 2 months ago at 5.43 amps. That's significantly less than the 10 amps you're suggesting. I suggest the no load discussion is very relevant to the KLR. My battery is at no load much longer than ever under a load. Even when driving down the road, if the charging system is working, the battery is under no load unless I'm using more electrickery than the charging system is putting out. A vehicle battery is a storage device and for our discussion supplies power when the charging system can't. What seems vital to me if I'm concerned with the charging system is what voltage the charging system is providing. Yes I know amperage is important for charging a battery but this discussion is about voltage indicators. If the charging system is only putting out 12.2 volts the battery isn't being charged. For me that would be a problem. If the charging system voltage doesn't matter then an idiot light like on many automobiles would work fine. It would light when the charging system isn't operating and the rest of the time it would be out. Doesn't provide any more information than indicating there's a problem with the charging system and doesn't tell you anything useful about battery condition. I think that addresses the issues you've brought up. I hope it has. Last thing from me on this is the information is only of value if the person receiving it knows how to properly interpret and use it. For the majority of folks no information is needed and in some cases information creates a problem. Maybe that's why the KLR doesn't come with any charging system indicators. The system if properly maintained is very reliable and trouble free. Best, Jeff Saline ABC # 4412 South Dakota Airmarshal Airheads Beemer Club www.airheads.org The Beautiful Black Hills of South Dakota 75 R90/6, 03 KLR650, 79 R100RT

[E.L. Green]

Jeff Saline wrote:

>battery but this discussion is about voltage indicators. If the charging >system is only putting out 12.2 volts the battery isn't being charged. > >

This is, however, normal when the KLR is idling at a stop light.

> It >would light when the charging system isn't operating and the rest of the >time it would be out. Doesn't provide any more information than >indicating there's a problem with the charging system and doesn't tell >you anything useful about battery condition. > >

Which is probably all that most people can make use of, to tell you the truth. Reminds me of how Honda had an issue with the temperature gauge on one of their early -model cars. The temperature gauge was similar to that on the KLR, i.e., had a big "normal" area with small "cold" and "hot" areas at the bottom and top. They had a horrible problem with people bringing their car in to the shop because it was "overheating" because the needle was about 80% towards the top. They thought the needle was supposed to be in the middle, and anything not in the middle was abnormal. Honda's design gave a lot of info about "normal" temperatures, but it was too much info for most people to deal with.

>Last thing from me on this is the information is only of value if the >person receiving it knows how to properly interpret and use it. For the >majority of folks no information is needed and in some cases information >creates a problem. >

Indeed. For example, it is normal on a KLR for the alternator to not keep the voltage up at idle when you have a heavy electrical load on the bike. But the voltage temporarily dropping down to 12.1 volts while you're stopped at a stop light doesn't mean your charging system is fried, it means that you're using the stored energy in your battery temporarily until you can get back up to speed. And if you're stuck in a traffic jam in a state where you can't lane split, it tells ya to turn off your electric vest until you're moving again. But it doesn't mean the charging system is fried! But for most folks, who don't know any better, they'd be freaking. Altogether *too much information*. What they need is an idiot light that comes on when they've discharged the battery too much -- and the design of such an idiot light is *not* an easy thing. To make it work 100% accurately, you'd have to measure current ingress and outgress from the battery, and know how many amp-hours the battery holds at full charge (that's what laptops do). The next approximation is to estimate the usual load when you have the charging system overloaded with too many electrical goodies, and based on that load and the capacity of the battery, figure out how what voltage corresponds to "we're discharging too much!", but this is inherently limited by the estimations that you're making, which are WAG's (wild-a'ed guesses), albeit perhaps informed ones. The final and most limited form of idiot light would be a comparator that measured the voltage on both sides of a low-resistance power resistor on the output of the alternator, and signalled when the voltage on the alternator side was no longer higher than the voltage on the battery side (i.e., that the alternator is no longer producing any current to have its voltage dropped by the resister). This would tell you immediately that your charging system had failed, but tell you nothing at all about your battery condition. But really, for most KLRistas, that's all they'd want to know anyhow, that and maybe an overvoltage indicator to tell them that their regulator had failed. It's only demented fools like me who want to power electric gear with their KLR who care about whether they've drained too much juice from their battery or not.

> Maybe that's why the KLR doesn't come with any >charging system indicators. The system if properly maintained is very >reliable and trouble free. > >

That is indeed quite true. It's a simple system and doesn't have much that can go wrong. About the only time you really need more information is if you intend to drive far more electrical gear than is shipped with the bike. -E

[Rodney Copeland]

No kiddin! Can't know why. I was certain my battery went empty cuz of my tipovers. It really dumps it out layin on the port side! Course it did last for a few years. Glad I have a sealed one now though. Rod

--- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, "Jud Jones" wrote: > > --- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, "Rodney Copeland" wrote: > > > > I wondered why my battery was so low on water one time. > > I then remembered my 10 tipovers, many on the left side. > > Then I bought a sealed battery! > > Rod > > > > > > I'd bet your battery boiled more water than it spilled. >

[Baron Tynan]

Update: Okay.....sprayed the starting fluid in and ......nothing. Pulled plug again to check for flooding....lots of starting fluid fumes coming from chamber....tried a different plug and saw the spark better in the fading light as I held it against the cylinder head. A member from the other board suggested that the woodruff key under the rotor may have been mis-aligned and the rotor is advancing and causing this. I had the left side cover off yesterday because my dohicky (this is the DSN site so I can say that over here) arrived from Fred and I was going to do it anyway. Everything looked fine in there especially the woodruff key. The only thing I have modified since my last ride when everything was running hunky-dory was a 80-100w bulb (yes, I checked my fuses first thing) On my ride yesterday everything was fine for about 70 miles until this happened. I also un-did/re-did the sidestand bypass conection to see if that was it. I also checked the float bowl by opening the petcock screw to see if fuel ran out(it did). I re-attached the gas tank/fuel line with a full tank of gas and cranked it over. I saw fuel running through the clear filter as I did this so I don't think there is an obstruction. I guess I'll be checking the things that Pat mentioned next. Could the symptom be from one of the valves being stuck open or if the compression release wasn't working properly? I noticed that after this happened and I tried to restart it that it seemed to crank faster than normal. So I better buy the compression test for a quick check of this. Has anyone tried a spark plug spark tester tool? I noticed the Clymer's suggested this to show the strenght of the spark. Who sells one? Btw, thanks for all help guys. Bonsall Baron P.S. Glen must have an auto-editing function on his site because I accidently typed in "dohicky" and when I read it today it was corrected with "tension lever"......