klr kaput (kontinued)

[James Morrow Sr]

On 12/13/05, Jeff Saline wrote: How do you tell you are only running on battery voltage when the battery is still fresh? Not sure I understand questoin. You definitely don't have a dead battery at 12V, Anything above 9 volts (with load) will start the bike sounds like you only have two levels, below 11.7 and 11.7 to 14.5, nothing above 14.5 signal dynamics has below 10V, 10V to 11V, 11V to 12V, 12V to 15V, and above 15V all easy to see by color and flash, with label to remember by. Even so, any of these schemes will work, letting you know before finding out by not being able to start bike. The more the levels the faster you find out. Union, MO '00' RT + dual plug + Bunkhouse '00' BUSA + 15hp '05' KLR650 + big fun factor [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Norm Keller]

>there's no easy place on a KLR to mount it

I'm mounting it in the dash which is similar to a Big Cee type. Time will tell how durable it is. I prefer to be able to monitor an analog gauge rather than to depend on a few indicators. If vibration of the meter movement is an issue, an old trick we used to use may work. British twins used to vibrate far worse than any KLR so we would fill the ammeter with clear mineral oil which dampened the needle and made the meter both more durable and easier to read. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com

[jokerloco9@aol.com]

Read carefully the info on lead-acid batteries in that reference. I think you are looking at the battery under a certain load. the batteries like we use are about 2.1 v/cell for about 12.6-12.7 volts charged. at 12.0 volts, they are nearly completely discharged. Put a 50 Amp load on them, and yes, it may drop to say 9 volts. But that doesn't tell you the level of charge. It tells you the current capacity. If it is lower than spec, then perhaps some of your plates are sulphated. Jeff A20 Jeff A20 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Jeff Saline]

Eric, I guess we must be using different ways to measure the state of charge and maybe also a different definition of discharged. The criteria I'm using for our bikes is a 100% charged battery should be reading 12.65 volts or better with no load. It'll probably read about 12.45 volts at 75% charged and maybe 12.25 volts at 50% charged. A reading of 12.06 volts or so is about 25% charged and 11.90 volts or there about is discharged. My interest in the LED voltage monitors you brought to my attention is that if the light is green at 12 or more volts you won't know if the charging system is working or not. You'll only know you have 12 volts or better. Luckily for us our bikes can be bump started so a dead battery isn't the end of the ride. Maybe. : ) Please remember we probably have 2,000+ folks reading these posts so I'm trying to keep this information in a range that is usable and helpful to the majority of them. Best, Jeff Saline ABC # 4412 South Dakota Airmarshal Airheads Beemer Club www.airheads.org The Beautiful Black Hills of South Dakota 75 R90/6, 03 KLR650, 79 R100RT On Tue, 13 Dec 2005 18:35:14 -0800 "E.L. Green" writes:

> Jeff Saline wrote: > > >Eric, James, > > > >I took a look at these LED indicators and I have a question. How > do you > >tell you are only running on battery voltage when the battery is > still > >fresh? It looks to me like you get a green light at any voltage > above 12 > >volts. At 12 volts you have a dead battery. > > > At 12 volts you have a battery that's at about 70% charge. I have a > > discharge curve around here somewhere. 50% charge is at around > 11.7v. A > battery is fully discharged (for our purposes) at about 10.5 volts. > > Thus the voltages I picked out of the air. If it's below 12.1 but > above > 11.7 volts, you know it's discharging, but you still have a fair > amount > of charge, between 50-80% charge. If it's below 11.7v, you better > darn > well quit discharging the bloody thing! But you can adjust the > threshhold voltages to whatever you wish on my design. Note that > this > all depends on the battery chemistry too. Lead-calcium batteries > have > different characteristics compared to lead-antimony batteries. You > might > want to tweak the pots accordingly. > > A good resource: > > http://www.azsolarcenter.com/technology/batteries/pdfs/apx-a.pdf > > Finally, simplicity is a virtue. There is a chip out the that will > drive > a segmented LED "bar graph" for an automotive voltage monitor. But > it's > a lot easier to glance at an idiot light than make sense of a bar > graph, > even if there were an easy way to mount a segmented "bar graph" LED > > display on a KLR. In that respect, the PIC design that blinks above > 15v > (to denote a failed voltage regulator) and blinks below 11v (to > denote a > discharged battery) is preferable to the segmented "bar graph" or > even > the "two-LED" design. > > -E > > > > Archive Quicksearch at: > http://www.angelfire.com/ut/moab/klr650_data_search.html > List sponsored by Dual Sport News at: www.dualsportnews.com > List FAQ courtesy of Chris Krok at: www.bigcee.com/klr650faq.html > Member Map at: http://www.frappr.com/dsnklr650 > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > >

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Jeff Saline]

James, Please see my earlier post this evening to Eric about the criteria I use for battery state of charge. I think it's quite different from what you're using. I surely disagree with your statement that anything above 9 volts (with a load) will start the bike. Here I use 9.6 volts and that surely means there is a problem in the system. The problem could be a discharged or old battery or maybe a voltage drop caused by corrosion, inadequate wiring or some other problem. Or if it's real cold it could just be lots of turning resistance of the engine. But for a bike that goes where no one has ever gone before I sure like having a reliable starting system and that begins with a fully charged battery. For the voltage monitoring system that I use with two LEDs you're right it does only show below about 11.7 volts as the LED is off or from about 11.7 volts to about 14.5 volts. Nothing over about 14.5 volts that I can tell. I didn't do a very good job of describing how it works earlier so I'll try again now. There are two LEDs. On my bikes I like red. They are about 4" apart and the one on the right glows brightly all the time the ignition is on. That is what the brightness of the left LED is judged against. The eye is usually very good about judging even slight differences in brightness between two lights. The left LED only glows from about 11.7 volts or so to about 14.5 volts. At 11.7 volts it is pretty dim and you can really tell a difference when compared to the right LED. As the voltage increases the LED gets brighter. At about 14.5 volts it is the same brightness as the LED on the right. So it has a multitude of brightness levels between about 11.7 volts and 14.5 volts. Dim to bright. I doesn't take much practice and you can easily tell if your charging system is working as when it's working both LEDs are pretty bright. Put a heavy electrical load on the system and the left LED will dim enough so you can probably tell if you are looking at it. If the left LED goes out you know you are below 11.7 or so volts. If you are in a condition where the battery should be getting charged and the left LED is out or even dim you know there might be a problem. I don't care about below 11.7 volts cause I have a digital multimeter I carry with me that can be used for troubleshooting. I also haven't seen an issue with above 14.5 volts yet. I suppose a voltage regulator could be bad and allow overcharging but so far I haven't experienced that. : ) I wonder what I'd do on the road as a temp fix for high voltage? I'm guessing the first thing I'd do is turn on my high beam and heated grips and see if that would bring it down. Or if that didn't work I might disconnect the charging system for a while and run on just the battery. And then hook it back up for a bit to charge the battery. And then unhook it. And then hook it up again. And keep repeating until I got to where I needed to be. I sure hope I don't ever have to do that. I'm glad you've got a system that works well for you. Best, Jeff Saline ABC # 4412 South Dakota Airmarshal Airheads Beemer Club www.airheads.org The Beautiful Black Hills of South Dakota 75 R90/6, 03 KLR650, 79 R100RT On Tue, 13 Dec 2005 22:42:12 -0500 James Morrow Sr writes:

> On 12/13/05, Jeff Saline wrote: > How do you tell you are only running on battery voltage when the > battery is > still > fresh? > > Not sure I understand questoin. > You definitely don't have a dead battery at 12V, Anything above 9 > volts > (with load) will start the bike > > sounds like you only have two levels, below 11.7 and 11.7 to 14.5, > nothing > above 14.5 > > signal dynamics has below 10V, 10V to 11V, 11V to 12V, 12V to 15V, > and above > 15V all easy to see by color and flash, with label to remember by. > > Even so, any of these schemes will work, letting you know before > finding out > by not being able to start bike. The more the levels the faster you > find > out. > > > Union, MO > '00' RT + dual plug + Bunkhouse > '00' BUSA + 15hp > '05' KLR650 + big fun factor > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > Archive Quicksearch at: > http://www.angelfire.com/ut/moab/klr650_data_search.html > List sponsored by Dual Sport News at: www.dualsportnews.com > List FAQ courtesy of Chris Krok at: www.bigcee.com/klr650faq.html > Member Map at: http://www.frappr.com/dsnklr650 > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > >

[jokerloco9@aol.com]

By the way, what is the best way to bump start the KLR? I tried it once or twice for a test and couldn't do it. Same thing for my Harley Softail. My Honda CB750 could be started by sitting in seat, rolling forward 2 feet and popping the clutch in second gear. On a cold motor. Jeff A20 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[John Biccum]

I have bump started my KLR several times on one trip, with a totally dead battery. Unlike some Hondas that need a certain voltage for the coil to fire, the KLR starts just fine even with the battery totally flat. Get it rolling in second, key on, clutch in. Then drop the clutch. Repeat if needed. Can't help you with the softtail, sorry. -----Original Message----- From: DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com [mailto:DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of jokerloco9@... Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2005 10:03 PM To: salinej1@...; ericnospam@... Cc: james.morrowsr@...; DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [DSN_KLR650] LED voltage monitor By the way, what is the best way to bump start the KLR? I tried it once or twice for a test and couldn't do it. Same thing for my Harley Softail. My Honda CB750 could be started by sitting in seat, rolling forward 2 feet and popping the clutch in second gear. On a cold motor. Jeff A20 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Archive Quicksearch at: http://www.angelfire.com/ut/moab/klr650_data_search.html List sponsored by Dual Sport News at: www.dualsportnews.com List FAQ courtesy of Chris Krok at: www.bigcee.com/klr650faq.html Member Map at: http://www.frappr.com/dsnklr650 Yahoo! Groups Links

[Jim Link]

I have a LED light also. Red means bad battery, yellow low voltage, green is good. It is connected through the wiring system. All I ever need to know is if the battery is good or not. I have a volt meter to tell me how much is being sent to the battery. And I can do that periodicly. When you push the start button you want the Bike to start. You cannot do it without a good battery. Everything else is maintenance. --- Jeff Saline wrote:

> Eric, James, > > I took a look at these LED indicators and I have a > question. How do you > tell you are only running on battery voltage when > the battery is still > fresh? It looks to me like you get a green light at > any voltage above 12 > volts. At 12 volts you have a dead battery. I like > the one I use with > two LEDs, one glowing brightly all the time and the > other out at about > 11.7 volts or so and then increasing in brightness > until about 14.5 volts > where it matches the always bright LED for > brightness. It's pretty easy > to look at the LEDs and figure out about where you > are charging voltage > wise. I found the design on the web about 6 years > ago and it was > designed by a guy in England I think. I've been > using this design since > 2000 and it works well. > > If you or any other listers would like a text > document about it and also > a picture of the wiring diagram let me know. > > Best, > > Jeff Saline > ABC # 4412 South Dakota Airmarshal > Airheads Beemer Club www.airheads.org > The Beautiful Black Hills of South Dakota > 75 R90/6, 03 KLR650, 79 R100RT > > On Tue, 13 Dec 2005 14:16:54 -0500 James Morrow Sr > writes: > > Yep I had all kinds of good designs too, plenty of > multi level > > voltage IC's > > available too. By the time I got done making it > and scrounging up > > all the > > parts, it would still be $10 and all my time. For > $26 you get a > > microproccessor circuit, all potted up, even a > nice decal. I > > drilled a hole > > in the open square on the right on speedo dash, > and put the LED > > their, > > potted circuit velcroed in fuse box. Looks like > it came with the > > bike, > > very reliable, very accurate. Really like it > > > > >

http://www.signaldynamics.com/products/Modules/HUVM.asp

> > > > > > > > > > On 12/13/05, E.L. Green > wrote: > > > > > > If you ever wanted one of those idiot lights, a > little penguin > > (heh) > > > designed one for you: > > > > > > > > >

http://badtux.blogspot.com/2005/12/12v-charging-system-monitor.html

> > > > > > I suspect this circuit is identical to a > patented circuit, even > > though > > > it was completely and totally independently > designed on the back > > of > > > (multiple) envelopes yesterday, but luckily > little penguins are > > hard to > > > track down and slap with injunctions (heh!). > > > > > > Next up: The actual assembly and installation. > > > > > > -E > > > > > > > > > > > > Archive Quicksearch at: > > > >

http://www.angelfire.com/ut/moab/klr650_data_search.html

> > > List sponsored by Dual Sport News at: > www.dualsportnews.com > > > List FAQ courtesy of Chris Krok at: > www.bigcee.com/klr650faq.html > > > Member Map at: http://www.frappr.com/dsnklr650 > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > James Morrow Sr > > Union, MO > > '00' RT + dual plug + Bunkhouse > > '00' BUSA + 15hp > > '05' KLR650 + big fun factor > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > > > > > > > Archive Quicksearch at: > > >

http://www.angelfire.com/ut/moab/klr650_data_search.html

> > List sponsored by Dual Sport News at: > www.dualsportnews.com > > List FAQ courtesy of Chris Krok at: > www.bigcee.com/klr650faq.html > > Member Map at: http://www.frappr.com/dsnklr650 > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Archive Quicksearch at: >

http://www.angelfire.com/ut/moab/klr650_data_search.html

> List sponsored by Dual Sport News at: > www.dualsportnews.com > List FAQ courtesy of Chris Krok at: > www.bigcee.com/klr650faq.html > Member Map at: http://www.frappr.com/dsnklr650 > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > DSN_KLR650-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > >

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[E.L. Green]

Jeff Saline wrote:

> Eric, > > I guess we must be using different ways to measure the state of charge > and maybe also a different definition of discharged. The criteria I'm > using for our bikes is a 100% charged battery should be reading 12.65 > volts or better with no load. It'll probably read about 12.45 volts > at 75% charged and maybe 12.25 volts at 50% charged. A reading of > 12.06 volts or so is about 25% charged and 11.90 volts or there about > is discharged.

I am unclear what kind of battery you are measuring, but it appears that you are reading no-load voltage. Under load a battery doesn't behave like that. At work we set up a number of fully charged batteries discharging into known loads, taking measurements of the voltage every 30 seconds. At 12 volts these batteries still had 80% of charge left, charge measured as "electrical juice available to drive the load" (e.g., if the battery would drive the load for 10 hours if fully charged to manufacturer's specification, at 12 volts the battery still had 8 hours of charge left). This was for a UPS-type system where we were developing a model of battery behavior in order to be able to accurately display it to the user. The data points were fitted to an equation for each load level, which was then simplified to a three-knee curve which was "close enough" and easier to implement in the firmware. The results looked similar to this: http://www.homepower.com/files/battvoltandsoc.pdf The chemistry of the battery does matter. Lead-antimony deep discharge batteries such as those at the above URL typically have lower voltages than lead-calcium batteries. The lithium ion batteries that I tested above have a decidedly different charging curve, pumping up quickly from their quiescent state (around 10 volts) to around 11.2 volts before levelling off and rising slower above that point. But the basic point is that a lead-acid battery under load, at 12 volts, still has well over 50% of charge left, regardless of whether it is a lead-calcium or lead-antimony battery.

> My interest in the LED voltage monitors you brought to my attention is > that if the light is green at 12 or more volts you won't know if the > charging system is working or not. You'll only know you have 12 volts > or better.

True enough. But you'll get to 12 volts soon enough. Remember, even if you just have the normal load, that's a nearly 10 amp load and our battery is only a 12 amp-hour battery. If the charging system *totally* failed, you'd be below 12 volts within a few minutes. Try it yourself. Go out, put a voltmeter on your battery, turn on your ignition but don't start the bike. You'll see the voltage almost immediately drop to below 12 volts, probably within three minutes, maybe even in under 60 seconds. Don't take my word on it, try it and let us know what you see.

> Please remember we probably have 2,000+ folks reading these posts so > I'm trying to keep this information in a range that is usable and > helpful to the majority of them. >

Batteries are perverse and fickle things. They drive me nuts, frankly, the battery tests in our manufacturing test suite have gotten more work from me than all the other tests combined. It's almost impossible to simplify any battery discussion, since batteries refuse to behave in simple ways. But the no-load discussion that you mentioned is irrelevant -- our KLR batteries are never under no-load unless the ignition key is off, so the only two things that count are a) charging behavior, and b) discharging behavior. Which are far more complicated than I like to think about, but my point -- that a 12v "idiot light" isn't as useless as you imply because the battery is under load and thus displays a lower voltage than its no-load voltage -- remains true. -E

[jokerloco9@aol.com]

Battery charge level is tested at no load condition (about 12.65V fully charged) because thet is what it should be based on chemistry. To say you put a load on the battery and it was at 12 volts yet it was at least 50 % charged means nothing. Put a 300 amp load on it and the voltage may drop to say 6 volts. Does that say anything about the charge level? Not really. Other info is necessary, such as how many amp./hours the battery has, which is really a measure of the surface area of the battery. The more surface area, the more current the battery can produce. That is why a car battery is larger, to supply more current for the larger motor. But a KLR and a car battery voltages are the same.. Use a KLR battery to start a car and it will probably drop to 5 volts or lower. Use a car battery, and it may drop to 11 volts during cranking. Does that say anything about the level of charge of each battery? No. A lead acid battery in good condition will be about 12.65 volts lo load. 12.0 v is about discharged. Period. Figure about 2.1 v per cell. Yes, they are 6 cell batteries. The new fancy 16 volt batteries used for racing are just 8 cell batteries. Look in a college Chemistry book under electrochemistry. Usually about chapter 10. If you charge battery fully, and get a voltage of around 10 or 8 or 6 or 4 volts, you have dead cells. Batteries are very complicated, and constantly changing. Jeff A20 -----Original Message----- From: E.L. Green To: Jeff Saline Cc: james.morrowsr@...; DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 09:17:32 -0800 Subject: Re: [DSN_KLR650] LED voltage monitor Jeff Saline wrote:

> Eric, > > I guess we must be using different ways to measure the state of charge > and maybe also a different definition of discharged. The criteria I'm > using for our bikes is a 100% charged battery should be reading 12.65 > volts or better with no load. It'll probably read about 12.45 volts > at 75% charged and maybe 12.25 volts at 50% charged. A reading of > 12.06 volts or so is about 25% charged and 11.90 volts or there about > is discharged.

I am unclear what kind of battery you are measuring, but it appears that you are reading no-load voltage. Under load a battery doesn't behave like that. At work we set up a number of fully charged batteries discharging into known loads, taking measurements of the voltage every 30 seconds. At 12 volts these batteries still had 80% of charge left, charge measured as "electrical juice available to drive the load" (e.g., if the battery would drive the load for 10 hours if fully charged to manufacturer's specification, at 12 volts the battery still had 8 hours of charge left). This was for a UPS-type system where we were developing a model of battery behavior in order to be able to accurately display it to the user. The data points were fitted to an equation for each load level, which was then simplified to a three-knee curve which was "close enough" and easier to implement in the firmware. The results looked similar to this: http://www.homepower.com/files/battvoltandsoc.pdf The chemistry of the battery does matter. Lead-antimony deep discharge batteries such as those at the above URL typically have lower voltages than lead-calcium batteries. The lithium ion batteries that I tested above have a decidedly different charging curve, pumping up quickly from their quiescent state (around 10 volts) to around 11.2 volts before levelling off and rising slower above that point. But the basic point is that a lead-acid battery under load, at 12 volts, still has well over 50% of charge left, regardless of whether it is a lead-calcium or lead-antimony battery.

> My interest in the LED voltage monitors you brought to my attention is > that if the light is green at 12 or more volts you won't know if the > charging system is working or not. You'll only know you have 12 volts > or better.

True enough. But you'll get to 12 volts soon enough. Remember, even if you just have the normal load, that's a nearly 10 amp load and our battery is only a 12 amp-hour battery. If the charging system *totally* failed, you'd be below 12 volts within a few minutes. Try it yourself. Go out, put a voltmeter on your battery, turn on your ignition but don't start the bike. You'll see the voltage almost immediately drop to below 12 volts, probably within three minutes, maybe even in under 60 seconds. Don't take my word on it, try it and let us know what you see.

> Please remember we probably have 2,000+ folks reading these posts so > I'm trying to keep this information in a range that is usable and > helpful to the majority of them. >

Batteries are perverse and fickle things. They drive me nuts, frankly, the battery tests in our manufacturing test suite have gotten more work from me than all the other tests combined. It's almost impossible to simplify any battery discussion, since batteries refuse to behave in simple ways. But the no-load discussion that you mentioned is irrelevant -- our KLR batteries are never under no-load unless the ignition key is off, so the only two things that count are a) charging behavior, and b) discharging behavior. Which are far more complicated than I like to think about, but my point -- that a 12v "idiot light" isn't as useless as you imply because the battery is under load and thus displays a lower voltage than its no-load voltage -- remains true. -E Archive Quicksearch at: http://www.angelfire.com/ut/moab/klr650_data_search.html List sponsored by Dual Sport News at: www.dualsportnews.com List FAQ courtesy of Chris Krok at: www.bigcee.com/klr650faq.html Member Map at: http://www.frappr.com/dsnklr650 Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]