simple question from a newbie

[Jeff Saline]

On Thu, 24 Nov 2005 16:48:27 -0500 Thane Silliker writes:

>>>>>SNIPPAGE I think I may look into the banjo bolt option as it would be less > exposed. I have a 0-30 psi gauge to use. Much higher range and it > would > be difficult to see those low oil pressures. > > Thane >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Thane, You might want to ask Bill for his oil pressure plots if you haven't already seen them. They show oil pressure at start up as over 30 psi @ 1,000 rpm. I'm not sure what happens to a gauge when you exceed the upper pressure by double but I'm betting it's not good. Just a thought. Best, Jeff Saline ABC # 4412 South Dakota Airmarshal Airheads Beemer Club www.airheads.org The Beautiful Black Hills of South Dakota 75 R90/6, 03 KLR650, 79 R100RT

[April Neave & Norm Keller]

Thane & I have been discussing this one for a bit and he's given me much food for thought. At this point I am leaning toward installing a high pressure hose to the oil pressure test port, to a pipe tee located somewhere out of harms way. The gauge would be most interesting but as he stated, is hard to keep track of when riding hard in the dirt. IMO this is the time when oil pressure is most likely to be affected by engine damage or low oil. A low pressure warning light could be located quite high up in the fairing to be more visible when on the pegs and/or otherwise distracted. A problem with warning lights is that they are not intelligent so the light setting which will turn the light off at normal hot idle oil pressure will not be modified when riding hard under load. Hot idle oil pressure is seldom sufficient for engine survival under hard riding. If the low pressure warning light switch is selected to warn of low operating oil pressure (as opposed to idle pressure) then it will turn the light on at idle which will lead to constant worry as to what the pressure is and if it is sufficient. For me this would be more of a disadvantage than advantage in terms of riding pleasure, however others having different personalities may react differently. When my new engine guard gets here, it can be determined how much space is available so install so the project will wait a while yet. Someone mentioned that they used an adjustable oil pressure switch from NAPA but I forgot to ask for the make and part number as this seems like a great option. Does anyone know the pressure range through which this switch can be adjusted? I am leaning to an electric gauge because of less concern over the effects of over pressure to an electric sender than to a mechanical gauge. Someone may have some insight here.... I will consult with some of my customers next week to see what others know of that issue. Great food for thought! I intend to go with oil pressure and analog voltmeter once this is all nailed down. Working through it is more than 1/2 the fun. One other related observation: my wife's Yamaha TTR125L has an oil pressure check port according to the service manual. The procedure is to "slightly loosen" a plug bolt, run at idle and if oil doesn't run out within one minute there is a problem. The process isn't definite but since this procedure appears just after the oil change procedure, I assume that the intent is to check after each oil change. Interesting! Norm

[Mark Sampson]

Oil lights ??? Oil pressure gauge ??? You are wasting your time--KLR's don't have oil pressure or oil pump problems----------but maybe a sensor to see if you piston is still going up and down---now I want one of those---or how bout a fork oil lever sensor--remote control of course---with a monitor to tell me if the batteries are getting dead (tongue in cheek). Mark Sampson www.bigdogadventures.com

[karim khaldi]

Norm, an electric sensor still relies on a mechanical front-end. so the effect of over pressure would be the same as a pure mechanical sensor. but, an electric sensor may have a wider operating range w/o sacrifying the scale resolution. also, you can mount it on the dash board. i alo have a yamaha. there is a small screw on the upper portion of the oil filter cover. run the engine at idle, unscrew the crew and expect to see oil coming out, if there is enough pressure in the oil filter assembly. note however that yamaha and kawa may have a different lubrication scheme. the user manuals say : - kawa: wet sump - forced lubrication - yamaha: dry sump I don't know what that means though.

On 11/26/05, April Neave & Norm Keller wrote: > > Thane & I have been discussing this one for a bit and he's given me much > food for thought. At this point I am leaning toward installing a high > pressure hose to the oil pressure test port, to a pipe tee located > somewhere > out of harms way. The gauge would be most interesting but as he stated, is > hard to keep track of when riding hard in the dirt. IMO this is the time > when oil pressure is most likely to be affected by engine damage or low > oil. > > A low pressure warning light could be located quite high up in the fairing > to be more visible when on the pegs and/or otherwise distracted. A problem > with warning lights is that they are not intelligent so the light setting > which will turn the light off at normal hot idle oil pressure will not be > modified when riding hard under load. Hot idle oil pressure is seldom > sufficient for engine survival under hard riding. > > If the low pressure warning light switch is selected to warn of low > operating oil pressure (as opposed to idle pressure) then it will turn the > light on at idle which will lead to constant worry as to what the pressure > is and if it is sufficient. For me this would be more of a disadvantage > than > advantage in terms of riding pleasure, however others having different > personalities may react differently. > > When my new engine guard gets here, it can be determined how much space is > available so install so the project will wait a while yet. > > Someone mentioned that they used an adjustable oil pressure switch from > NAPA > but I forgot to ask for the make and part number as this seems like a > great > option. Does anyone know the pressure range through which this switch can > be > adjusted? > > I am leaning to an electric gauge because of less concern over the effects > of over pressure to an electric sender than to a mechanical gauge. Someone > may have some insight here.... I will consult with some of my customers > next > week to see what others know of that issue. > > Great food for thought! I intend to go with oil pressure and analog > voltmeter once this is all nailed down. Working through it is more than > 1/2 > the fun. > > One other related observation: my wife's Yamaha TTR125L has an oil > pressure > check port according to the service manual. The procedure is to "slightly > loosen" a plug bolt, run at idle and if oil doesn't run out within one > minute there is a problem. The process isn't definite but since this > procedure appears just after the oil change procedure, I assume that the > intent is to check after each oil change. Interesting! > > Norm > > > > Archive Quicksearch at: > http://www.angelfire.com/ut/moab/klr650_data_search.html > List sponsored by Dual Sport News at: www.dualsportnews.com > List FAQ courtesy of Chris Krok at: www.bigcee.com/klr650faq.html > Member Map at: http://www.frappr.com/dsnklr650 > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[April Neave & Norm Keller]

Mark wrote:

>Oil pressure gauge ??? >You are wasting your time--KLR's don't have oil >pressure or oil pump >problems----------but maybe a sensor to see if you >piston is still going >up and down---now I want one of those---or how bout >a fork oil lever >sensor--remote control of course---with a monitor to >tell me if the >batteries are getting dead (tongue in cheek).

Since it is my time and my money is it still all right to do it or must I abandon the project? Just checking.... I already have a sensor to see if the piston is going up and down. It is called a tachomoter. Didn't your KLR come with one? My wife's TRR-125L doesn't have one so she has to resort to the more primitive practice of seeing if the bike moves when the clutch is released. This works well because it is a dead give-away that the engine is running. I considered the fork oil lever sensor but the forks came as a shock..... I don't mind tongue in cheek as long as you keep it in your own cheek. (Running for cover) Norm Mom, he started it!

[April Neave & Norm Keller]

A private discussion raised the terms:

>- kawa: wet sump - forced lubrication >- yamaha: dry sump

Since it might be useful to someone else, here is my unedited explanation: Wet and dry sump refer to oil return and storage. In a wet sump engine, the oil which drains back from the cylinder head, and oil thrown off the crankshaft bearings, etc. runs down and is collected in a reservoir (sump) low in the engine case. As this is usually in the area below the crankshaft it is usually referred to as the engine's crank case. Since many engines use a removable sump to allow for access to the crankshaft, connecting rods and so on, this removable sump is usually called the "oil pan". The engine can be either splash lubricated or pressure (forced) lubricated. In a splash lubricated engine, the connecting rod typically has a paddle or dipper attached to the connecting rod cap (the lower 1/2 of the connecting rod) and has no oil pump. The purpose of the paddle is to hit the pool of oil in the bottom of the oil sump so as to splash oil up onto the cylinder walls, camshaft, crankshaft bearings and so on. This splash lubrication is not as effective as is oil flow forced into the bearings but works OK on small engines and low output engines. It is simple and cheap to make. More sophisticated splash lubricated engines use a dipper rather than a paddle on the connecting rod cap. The paddle's spoon shaped end feeds into a drilled passage leading up through the connecting rod cap to the connecting rod bearing. In this application the splashed oil is force fed to the connecting rod bearing which is generally the most heavily loaded bearing in the engine. Still called a splash feed system though.. In a force fed oil lubrication system such as the KLR's (primitive) or all cage and truck engines, an oil pump is used to pick up oil from the oil sump in the crankcase. This oil is picked up through a pick-up screen to exclude bigger debris from the oil pump but cannot filter the oil because a filter would cause too much restriction to flow to be overcome by atmospheric pressure on the pump suction (inlet) side. Too much restriction, especially on cold starts, would result in low or no oil flow. Oil flow from the oil pump is generally through drilled passages in the engine cases to an oil filter and then to supply crankshaft, connecting rod bearings, camshaft bearings and so on. It is common for some oil supply passages to incorporate a restriction to reduce the amount of oil flow to areas which might otherwise be flooded by too much oil. A small restriction placed in a passage will result in more uniform oil flow at cold to hot temperatures than would the making of smaller passages through-out. A restriction is common in oil feed passages to cylinder heads. Watch out for these when doing over hauls! Because some allowance has to be made for wear to the oil pump and increase in oil clearances due to wear, the oil pump will be oversized in design. The result of an oversized pump or the same pump under cold conditions will be high or extremely high oil pressures. These high pressures can result in bursting of oil seals, oil filter, or shearing of the oil pump drive. To reduce maximum oil pressure to desirable levels and oil pressure relief valve (also called an oil pump relief valve) is placed in the system to bypass part of the oil flow back to the crankcase when oil pump volume is greater than required. Generally the oil pressure relief valve will be partially open unless the oil is very thin and the engine has a lot of wear. In a dry sump engine the oil still flows back to a sump in the crankcase or some other catching area. In some applications there will be more than one catching area for the oil. Regardless of how many catching (catchment?) areas, the oil is removed from the crankcase by means of another oil pump which pumps the oil back into a separate oil reservoir (tank). This pump is usually called the scavenging pump as opposed to the pressure (oil delivery) pump. It will be immediately obvious that both oil pumps can be mounted to the same drive but that the scavenging pump must be larger in volume since it must be able to remove more oil than the delivery (pressure) pump can deliver or there is a possibility that all oil will not be removed and oil could build up in the sump. It will also be obvious that the scavenging pump will not have to be capable of creating significant oil pressure since its role is simply to remove oil to the tank from where the pressure pump obtains its supply in the "dry sump" application. It will also be obvious that the scavenging pump will have to deal with a fair amount of aeration so the oil volume could be very large compared to the pressure side. A dry sump engine obviously isn't really dry but just doesn't have the pool of oil in the bottom. Dry sump applications are most commonly: aircraft inline engines, since flying upside down would dump all the oil onto the bottoms of the pistons resulting in a big power loss as well as loss of lubrication; aircraft radial engines, since no way is up for their crankcase; racing engines due to issues of high cornering forces throwing oil out of the sump area; low profile engines where room for an oil sump below the crankshaft is not desirable, etc. Hope that is a useful explanation.... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[a14@att.net]

That is only if it is an "A" model except if it is a California emissions model it would be an A14L. There is also the "C" model in parts other than the USA. Walt -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: "Pat"

> Some would say A14, others Y2K, still others . . . 2000. There are > some loosly followed conventions here but not enough to make a > religion out of it - just a CULT. > > Pat M > WA - the wet side > A14 > --- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, "keithrstone" wrote: > > > > I see people using A8, A16, etc as a designiation for a year of KLR (I > > think). I purchased a used 2000 KLR650 a few months back, what > > designation would this bike have? > > > > Thanks, > > Keith > > > >