new klr 650 ('06 model) owner question - this shouldn't be happening

[Blake Sobiloff]

On 9/12/05, sbcglobal wrote:

> The reason it snapped they say, was "hydro-lock". Estimate is $2,800, parts and labor. > > They are describing hydro-lock as excess fuel in the crankcase resulting in > detonation in the crankcase. The piston gets confused as to which way to go, > puts undue stress on the rod, which then snaps. The excess fuel in the > crankcase, they say, could be caused by leaving the petcock set to "prime" > (n/a on my KLR - either on, off, or reserve), or leaky petcock draining fuel into > the cylinder, past the rings, into the crankcase.

That's all plausible in a stretch, but not probable IMHO. Rather, it sounds like your dealer doesn't want to hassle with a warranty claim/defective part because then they'd get paid a much lower labor rate on the repair by Kawasaki. They'd rather try to convince you it's your fault and have you pay their normal (full) rate. I don't see how that much fuel could make it into the crankcase on a continuously running engine, and as others have pointed out, the crankcase is vented enough to bleed off a fair amount of pressure even if there was some ignition in there. One way to get the proof you need may be to send a sample of your oil in for oil analysis. That much fuel in the oil would likely be detectible. (I don't know if there's any oil left after the dealer tore into your bike, though.) If you want to persue that, send me email off list and I can put you in touch with the analyst I use. -- Blake Sobiloff San Jose, CA (USA)

[Anthony Newton]

I did have a crankcase detonation in a Chevy Smallblock, it blew the aluminum valve cover to smithereens and bowed the sides of the oil pan out so bad that I needed a hammer to get the oilpan bolts out. The rods/pistons/crank were all fine. My point is, if you had a crankcase explosion with enough force to snap a conrod, you probably would see other damage on the block/valve cover/oilpan since they are pretty cheap metal. My $0.02, -Fig GW De Lacey wrote:

>On Tue, 13 Sep 2005 03:11:26 -0000, you wrote: > >I don't know what "detonation in the crankcase" would be called, but >my guess is that it is so rare that it doesn't have a name > > >

[steven_bingham@dell.com]

Their description of hydro-lock seems a little off. It doesn't occur because the piston gets "confused", it occurs when any form of liquid, i.e., fuel, oil, water or coolant, gets trapped in the cylinder. Liquids are incompressible, which causes extremely high cylinder pressures on the compression stroke and most often causes bent or broken rods. If the oil level was too high, it will either escape through seals, or via blow-by, where the oil gets pushed past the piston rings and into the cylinder. That's one possible cause. Another could be incomplete fuel combustion, caused possibly by dirty plugs and the denser air at higher altitudes (there's less air the higher you get, but you're still feeding it the same amount of fuel). Most carbs are jetted for sea level out of the box. That one is a long shot, but still a possibility. Coolant in the cylinder is usually caused by a blown head gasket, but when the motor is torn down it's easy to see if that was a factor. In any case, something did happened to your motor. Did you ask to see the rod that had broke? The honest truth is that the shop can only guess at the cause, and if there was no oil on the cylinder, no blown head gasket, and you hadn't submerged it, fuel is the next logical cause. Fuel evaporates, though, so there probably wasn't any present in the chamber when it was torn down. If the rod truly broke, I would say that their root cause is good, but I'm betting there were many factors involved. On the other hand, the labor charge is ridiculous. Unless your cylinder head, bottom end, or bearings are trashed, I can't see the parts costing more than $300. Labor shouldn't be more than 8 hours max, which at $70/hr would be $560. Also, did they actually tear the motor down? If not, there's no way they can know what parts need to be replaced. I would ask for an itemized quote, including all parts and a labor estimate. Anyone here that works on bikes can tell you that a motor can be torn down in a matter of hours. -----Original Message----- From: DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com [mailto:DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anthony Newton Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2005 8:42 AM To: DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [DSN_KLR650] Re: Indestructible A15 KLR 650 snaps rod at just over 2K miles I did have a crankcase detonation in a Chevy Smallblock, it blew the aluminum valve cover to smithereens and bowed the sides of the oil pan out so bad that I needed a hammer to get the oilpan bolts out. The rods/pistons/crank were all fine. My point is, if you had a crankcase explosion with enough force to snap a conrod, you probably would see other damage on the block/valve cover/oilpan since they are pretty cheap metal. My $0.02, -Fig GW De Lacey wrote:

>On Tue, 13 Sep 2005 03:11:26 -0000, you wrote: > >I don't know what "detonation in the crankcase" would be called, but my >guess is that it is so rare that it doesn't have a name > > >

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[sbcglobal]

From: sbcglobal To: pdstreeter@... Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2005 8:36 AM Subject: Re: Indestructible A15 KLR 650 snaps rod at just over 2K miles Paul, I haven't said anything to them about changing petcock gaskets or carburetor cleaning. They may be assuming that due to the age that it probably has been leaking and that I haven't done anything about it? Chuck

----- Original Message ----- From: pdstreeter@... To: clcooper@... Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2005 6:07 AM Subject: Re: Indestructible A15 KLR 650 snaps rod at just over 2K miles Here are my thoughts: It sounds like the only reason that they mentioned the hydro-lock is if you told them you changed the petcock. Otherwise, the only time hydro-lock happens is when you first start the bike, after sitting overnight. Also, not only does the petcock have to be "on" or "prime", but the needle and seat in the carb has to leak, too. There's no way the bottom end of the engine could fill up with gas while you're riding at 80 mph. Paul Streeter Well... I just talked with the shop that tore down the engine on my bike (name reserved for right now - until I have a chance to determine what's what). They said the piston and cylinder were fine, both ends of the rod were fine. The rod snapped just below the cylinder skirt. The reason it snapped they say, was "hydro-lock". Estimate is $2,800, parts and labor. They are describing hydro-lock as excess fuel in the crankcase resulting in detonation in the crankcase. The piston gets confused as to which way to go, puts undue stress on the rod, which then snaps. The excess fuel in the crankcase, they say, could be caused by leaving the petcock set to "prime" (n/a on my KLR - either on, off, or reserve), or leaky petcock draining fuel into the cylinder, past the rings, into the crankcase. What happened was that I had been riding around CO for about nine days (absolutely spectacular ride - Grand Junction, Gateway, Dolores, Ouray, Silverton, back to Grand Junction for a clutch cable for my buddy's BMW, Glenwood Springs, Boulder, Pueblo - wow!!!!!). Bike wasn't using oil, getting a little over 50 mpg, somewhere between 150 and 250 miles per day. Being a somewhat anal accountant type, the chain was lubed every day, the oil was checked every time I took a break. Coolant had been replaced before the ride with Water Wetter and never got past mid-temp gauge the entire trip. Petcock innards had all just been replaced. Big Cee petcock diaphragm installed. Carb disassembled and cleaned. The bike was just running great! The day the rod snapped I was riding from Pueblo to Gunnison, by way of Salida and Monarch pass. I had been riding about three hours and was near the bottom of Monarch, which is a relatively steep pass, sailing along at about 80mph, roughly 5,200 RPM, throttle rolled full off. All of a sudden the bike "clicked" and began shaking pretty violently. Really got my attention. My questions are, has anybody ever had a rod snap, or heard of a rod snapping on a KLR? Has anybody heard of "hydro-lock", to the extent of snapping a rod, especially under the conditions I've described? I know I'm asking for it, but all comments, thoughts, help appreciated. Chuck [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[sbcglobal]

Greg, Sorry, it was *not* high tide on Monarch pass. Sure sounds like a defective rod to me. Even if I had been red lining the thing all the way down the pass it would have come apart at one of the ends... not the middle. Thanks, Chuck

>From: Greg Guithues >Reply-To: bikemail@... >To: clcooper@..., DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com >CC: Tengai Mark Van Horn >Subject: Re: [DSN_KLR650] Indestructible A15 KLR 650 snaps rod at just over >2K miles >Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 22:22:00 -0400 > >At 3:50 PM -0700 9/12/05, sbcglobal wrote: > > >Well... I just talked with the shop that tore down the engine on my > > >bike (name reserved for right now - until I have a chance to > > >determine what's what). They said the piston and cylinder were fine, > > >both ends of the rod were fine. The rod snapped just below the > > >cylinder skirt. The reason it snapped they say, was "hydro-lock". > > >Estimate is $2,800, parts and labor. > > > > > >They are describing hydro-lock as excess fuel in the crankcase > > >resulting in detonation in the crankcase. The piston gets confused > > >as to which way to go, puts undue stress on the rod, which then > > >snaps. The excess fuel in the crankcase, they say, could be caused > > >by leaving the petcock set to "prime" (n/a on my KLR - either on, > > >off, or reserve), or leaky petcock draining fuel into the cylinder, > > >past the rings, into the crankcase. > > > >On 9/12/05, Tengai Mark Van Horn wrote: > > Smells like horse$hit. > > >(snip) > > > > Mark > > > > > > > > What MARK said. A15 - with only 2000 miles. I guess it's out of >warranty. >bummer. The rod snapped because it was defective. Unless you were running >the bike underwater you did not have hydro lock. If you were running it >underwater I'll take back what I said about the defective rod . > >-Greg. > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > >Archive Quicksearch at: >http://www.angelfire.com/ut/moab/klr650_data_search.html >List sponsored by Dual Sport News at: www.dualsportnews.com >List FAQ courtesy of Chris Krok at: www.bigcee.com/klr650faq.html > > >Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > >

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Jeff Saline]

Chuck, Sorry to hear about your engine. Glad you're ok. I was near the local dealer in Rapid City, South Dakota this morning so I stopped in and asked their mechanics about the issue. The first guy didn't know what he was talking about and finally admitted it when I called him on a few points. He suggested I ask another mechanic who'd just walked in the room. This guy sure seemed to know what he was talking about. He'd never heard of a KLR engine coming apart under normal usage. He agreed with me that the shop that has your engine is talking trash. We both agreed hydrolock was fluid in the combustion chamber and caused the engine to lock up and sometimes bend rods or maybe even worse. He said the fuel in the crankcase and detonating is, well, uh, um, ... let's just say he didn't speak kindly of the guy who suggested that theory. I was rereading your post and you mention doing about 80mph downhill with the throttle closed and doing about 5,200rpm. I don't do speeds like that but it sure seems like the engine is running slow for that speed. What gearing are you using? The mechanic and I both thought that you could throw a rod from extreme redlining of the engine. We both also thought that was the most likely cause of the problem. Good luck getting it fixed up. Jeff Saline ABC # 4412 South Dakota Airmarshal Airheads Beemer Club www.airheads.org The Beautiful Black Hills of South Dakota 75 R90/6, 03 KLR650, 79 R100RT

[sbcglobal]

Jeff, Thanks for looking into this. The consensus I'm getting - that I agree with - is that the mechanic is talking bull$hit. The fact of the matter seems to be that the rod is broken, and he has no idea what caused it. Fifth gear (and looking for sixth), stock sprockets... when I say 80mph, I mean 80 indicated. I suspect actual is around 72 or 73. RPM was around 5200. I wasn't really focused on gauges though. The road was mildly twisty in that section, and there are always deer up there. Chuck

----- Original Message ----- From: Jeff Saline To: clcooper@... ; DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2005 9:24 AM Subject: [DSN_KLR650] Indestructible A15 KLR 650 snaps rod at just over 2K miles Chuck, Sorry to hear about your engine. Glad you're ok. I was near the local dealer in Rapid City, South Dakota this morning so I stopped in and asked their mechanics about the issue. The first guy didn't know what he was talking about and finally admitted it when I called him on a few points. He suggested I ask another mechanic who'd just walked in the room. This guy sure seemed to know what he was talking about. He'd never heard of a KLR engine coming apart under normal usage. He agreed with me that the shop that has your engine is talking trash. We both agreed hydrolock was fluid in the combustion chamber and caused the engine to lock up and sometimes bend rods or maybe even worse. He said the fuel in the crankcase and detonating is, well, uh, um, ... let's just say he didn't speak kindly of the guy who suggested that theory. I was rereading your post and you mention doing about 80mph downhill with the throttle closed and doing about 5,200rpm. I don't do speeds like that but it sure seems like the engine is running slow for that speed. What gearing are you using? The mechanic and I both thought that you could throw a rod from extreme redlining of the engine. We both also thought that was the most likely cause of the problem. Good luck getting it fixed up. Jeff Saline ABC # 4412 South Dakota Airmarshal Airheads Beemer Club www.airheads.org The Beautiful Black Hills of South Dakota 75 R90/6, 03 KLR650, 79 R100RT Archive Quicksearch at: http://www.angelfire.com/ut/moab/klr650_data_search.html List sponsored by Dual Sport News at: www.dualsportnews.com List FAQ courtesy of Chris Krok at: www.bigcee.com/klr650faq.html Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Stuart Mumford]

Let's see some parts. Unless you have an extended warranty through Kawasaki, your bike's out of warranty. I suggest taking it to an independent shop (or a different Kawi dealer) and having them tear down the motor to see what really happened. Shouldn't take more than 1 hr. of shop time to yank the valve cover and see if the valves are bent, which would indicate the piston hitting the valves. I'm real curious to see what happened. Hydrolock isn't an option, IMHO. I'm betting your cam chain skipped a tooth and the piston hit the valves. If the rod actually broke, that would be spectacular and unique. Please upload some pictures of the parts! Good luck CA Stu

[Svantwuyver]

Recently I repaired a weedwacker that had a weak pumper carb diaphram. I took the cover off and exposed the crankcase, which was loaded with fuel from liberal use of the priming bulb. So I cranked it a few times to purge the excess fuel from the combustion chamber. This caused the crankcase to catch on fire. Even if fuel gets into the crankcase on a KLR, I'm not sure if there is enough air available to cause an explosion. Second the ignition source from a KLR is totally seperate from the crankcase unlike my little two stroke which backfired through the exhaust to cause ignition. Still stuff happens, I certainly didn't expect a fire. -svt- __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com

[Darryll]

Rods generaly don't break under hydraulic lock but they tend to bend somewhere generaly in the middle of the rod.......when a wrist pin locks up or a rod to crank bearing locks up or a piston seizes in its bore is when a rod will break ...... some rods will break at the wrist pin end from stress cracks that can be formed during casting.... a crankcase detonation will usualy cause the case seals and posibly the site glass to be blown out..... no way that it could cause a rod to break unless you ran it with a seal or sight glass spewing oil till it ran out......most of the time the rod even though broken will push the piston to the top of the bore where it will stay..then the rod will beat the cylinder when cranking ..most rod failures beat something else to death after they go ....hrd to beleive the piston and cylinder lived if it broke at the piston end.... --- GW De Lacey wrote:

> On Tue, 13 Sep 2005 03:11:26 -0000, you wrote: > > Agreed > Interestingly, SOP for starting big radial engines > on aeroplanes > includes hand/starter motor rotating before turning > the ignition on. > Seems oil and fuel can accumulate in the combustion > space of the lower > cylinders, reducing the size of the space, and this > can cause severe > detonation. The results can vary from a smashed head > to a bent push > rod etc. > Also if water enters the air intake of a diesel, the > result can be a > bent pushrod or a smashed piston or a broken > crankshaft etc. > Both of these are referred to as "hydraulic king". > I don't know what "detonation in the crankcase" > would be called, but > my guess is that it is so rare that it doesn't have > a name > > -- > GW > > >Smells a little funny, given the conditions. > Hydraulic lock could > >break things - but - he's running on the road, > right? So, the > >crankcase has been pumping for a while right? The > KLR usually blows > >oil, etc, on the road, right? > > > >BTW, how can a piston get "confused"????? > Detonation - in the > >crankase??? PUHLEEZE!! > > > >Probably not worth spending the money to find out > why it REALLY broke. > > > >Bottom line - gotta get the engine fixed. $2800 is > too much!! We'll > >find a way....... > > > >all the best, > > > >Mike > >Eagle Mfg & Eng since 1990 > >San Diego, Ca. > > wrote: > >> I think there's some misuse of terms. I think > the term where a > >piston tries > >> to compress a liquid is hydraulic lock. Hydro > more or less means > >water vs. > >> hydraulic which indicates a liquid. > >> > >> It is possible to do major engine damage when gas > leaks past the > >carb and > >> into the cylinder. The hapless rider thumbs the > starter > >button...whammo. > >> Something has gotta give. > >> > >> It's very possible to break a conrod due to > hydraulic lock. > >> > >> Just my two cents. > >> > >> Austin > >> 89 KLR 650 > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "Greg Guithues" > >> To: ; DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com> > >> Cc: "Tengai Mark Van Horn" > >> Sent: Monday, September 12, 2005 10:22 PM > >> Subject: Re: [DSN_KLR650] Indestructible A15 KLR > 650 snaps rod at > >just over > >> 2K miles > >> > >> > >> > At 3:50 PM -0700 9/12/05, sbcglobal wrote: > >> >> >Well... I just talked with the shop that tore > down the engine on my > >> >> >bike (name reserved for right now - until I > have a chance to > >> >> >determine what's what). They said the piston > and cylinder were fine, > >> >> >both ends of the rod were fine. The rod > snapped just below the > >> >> >cylinder skirt. The reason it snapped they > say, was "hydro-lock". > >> >> >Estimate is $2,800, parts and labor. > >> >> > > >> >> >They are describing hydro-lock as excess fuel > in the crankcase > >> >> >resulting in detonation in the crankcase. The > piston gets confused > >> >> >as to which way to go, puts undue stress on > the rod, which then > >> >> >snaps. The excess fuel in the crankcase, they > say, could be caused > >> >> >by leaving the petcock set to "prime" (n/a on > my KLR - either on, > >> >> >off, or reserve), or leaky petcock draining > fuel into the cylinder, > >> >> >past the rings, into the crankcase. > >> > > >> > On 9/12/05, Tengai Mark Van Horn wrote: > >> >> Smells like horse$hit. > >> > (snip) > >> >> Mark > >> >> What MARK said. A15 - with only 2000 miles. I > guess it's out of > >warranty. > >> > bummer. The rod snapped because it was > defective. Unless you were > >running > >> > the bike underwater you did not have hydro > lock. If you were > >running it > >> > underwater I'll take back what I said about the > defective rod . > >> > > >> > -Greg. > > > > > > > > > > > >Archive Quicksearch at: >

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