countersteering vs oversteering

[Jeff Jones]

Howdy listers, Due to holiday, family, and work stuff; my KLR motor has been sitting on my bench mostly disassembled. For those not following my tale of woe, my air filter became clogged on a long Mexico trip. The motor used 1 qt. of oil in 128 miles and was knocking ominously. The piston crown and the head had heavy carbon residue. Besides the head and cylinder, I now have the piston removed. Side to side play measured with connecting rod still installed was within spec in the Clymer manual. The wrist pin may be excessively worn and the cylinder/piston appears to be worn excessively. My current plan is to send the head, cylinder, piston and wrist pin to Mission Motorsports for measurements with better tools than I have. At a minimum, I'll get a valve job and new valve guide seals, and have the head reassembled. If their measurements confirm my (and my mechanic neighbor's) opinion of excessive cylinder wear, I'll have the piston bored, and get a new piston and rings. No problems can be detected with the crank bearings - they're smooth, quiet, and no play. I'll buy a new wrist pin also and install that in the connecting rod. It's that last part that has me nervous - will installing a new wrist pin in the existing connecting rod be asking for trouble? Splitting the case and removing the con rod will add a bunch more disassembly which I'm trying to avoid but will do if absolutely necessary. Jeff Jones

[el_macho650]

--- In DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com, Jeff Jones wrote:

>It's that last part that has me nervous - will installing a new > wrist pin in the existing connecting > rod be asking for trouble?

A few years ago I had my '78 SR500 rebored +1mm and got a new piston. The replacement wrist pin came with the Wiseco piston. Once I removed the circlips, I was able to push the original wrist pin out with my fingers. The Wiseco pin went in just as easily. I have heard of pullers made to remove wrist pins without wrecking the con ron or big end bearing, but I guess these are only necessary if there's been a small end seizure. It should just come out. Whatever you do, don't bang sideways on the con rod trying to drive it. Basically the wrist pin should slide in a bit snug, and rotate easily. There should be no perceptible play or slop though. If it fits properly, there's no reason for a problem. Devon

[Jerry Kaplan]

Jeff, Wrist pins are an easy sliding fit into the connecting rod. No further dissassembly required. With a fresh top end and a clean air filter she'll be good as new. C-ya, Jer I'll buy a new wrist pin also and install that in the connecting rod. It's that last part that has me nervous - will installing a new wrist pin in the existing connecting rod be asking for trouble? Splitting the case and removing the con rod will add a bunch more disassembly which I'm trying to avoid but will do if absolutely necessary. Jeff Jones [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Eric L. Green]

On Wed, 15 Dec 2004, Jeff Jones wrote:

> If their measurements > confirm my (and my mechanic neighbor's) opinion of excessive cylinder > wear, I'll have the piston > bored, and get a new piston and rings. No problems can be detected with

What year? Note that Elden Carl has had a problem with cylinder boring on some years of KLR, apparently Kawasaki has a thin sleeve and a thick sleeve, and if you bore the thin sleeve, you end up with a cylinder that won't stay round due to the large amount of sleeve surface that is effectively supported by water (due to the water jacket), and thus excessive oil consumption. For more details you might want to go poke around on http://multisurfacemotorcycling.com for his latest article on the subject of KLR-650 cylinder rebores. So this presents you with a bit of a conondrum. You have three choices: 1) Put a new piston in, but keep the cylinder w/o boring it other than a gentle hone so that it can break in with a new set of rings. If the cylinder is not too far out, this will work, but will result in reduced ring life and increased oil consumption but may be better than... 2) bore the cylinder, which risks having a cylinder that won't keep its round and thus will leak oil and compression even worse than option 1), but if it's a post-1996 and not too much of an overbore is required, it might work. Then finally, there is the most expensive option of the three, 3) have a new cylinder liner installed, then bored out to the correct size for your new piston. Good luck! At least all the parts are available to do this for the Mighty KLR. Some other brands of motorcycle that I know (I won't mention them, but their name starts with "S") aren't so lucky... -E

[Lee Dodge]

Watching as this "countersteering" thread assume a very high level of interest and prompted by a reply to me by Robert Floren (at the end of this "dissertation") I think that there are overlaping observations causing confusion. They are: 1. Countersteering- is when the rider wishing to go to the right applies slight pressure on the right side of the bars which causes an almost imperceptable bar movement to the left thereby moving the bike out from under the rider and causing the bike to start to fall to the right. We then have a banking turn initiated. I believe this is the predominant method of steering a monotrack vehicle. Yes at low speeds we do turn the bars in the direction we want to go, but once beyond that point we countersteer - realize it or not. 2. Oversteering - a method of steering a car or motorcycle where the rear wheel(s) are NOT tracking but are slipping to some degree sidways. Examples are Flat Trackers sliding in the corners and all dirt track cars sliding theough the turns(watch the Sprint cars). And it also applies to you and me when we get the courage to hang-out the rear wheel 'fireroading'. What is happening in these cases is STEERING WITH THE BACK WHEEL(S). All the factory road racers steer as often with the back wheel as they do tracking through corners. Once sliding they adjust direction by adding or subtracting power to adjust the degree of rear wheel lateral displacement. Not many of us are willing to or capable of getting to and slightly past 10/10ths on pavement which is the starting point for rear wheel steering. The technique is to use power to break the friction circle at the rear while the front remains within its friction circle so control is maintained. That is not to preclude sliding both front and rear wheels; it is relatively easy with a car but much more difficult on 2 wheels-but there are riders who can do it! Freddy Spencer for one and I expect all of the factory riders can and do do it but it is riskier so you won't see it often.) It takes extremely sensitive and quick reflexes to play in that game, but that is the condition that produces the pictures of the front wheel steering to the opposite side of the turn or 'opposite lock'. That is 'steering counter to the direction of travel' but is not the Countersteering being discussed in this thread. To summarize; Countersteering: very small bar movements , both wheels maintain traction, front wheel controls direction. Oversteering: large bar movements, rear wheels are sliding, rear wheel contribute substiantially to direction. This is one persons opinion and observations. I hope it helps. Regards, Lee PS- Steering with the back wheel -on paved surfaces - became a relatively predictable cornering option with the first Honda Interceptor in 1983 due to the rigid chassis which virtually eliminated the chassis flex. Chassis flex stores energy with the frame acting like a torsion spring. If a rider exceeded the available friction in a corner the rear wheel would break loose abruptly due to the release of the stored force in the frame. When you're at 10/10ths on pavement with footpegs dragging this rider finds that abrupt sideways movements causes a vastly unproportional reaction of the spincter muscle. --- RobertFloren@... wrote:

> > There is such a picture of a yellow sportbike seen > from an overhead angle rounding a right turn with a > very noticeable turn of the front wheel off > centerline to the left as the rider leans hard to > the right. Still havent found it again and I don't > know if he was skidding or what. One thing is > certain: 99 percent of the racing pictures on the > web do not show any obvious countersteer, in line > with what you are saying. But very few of these > photos are taken from an overhead view either. > > > -------------- Original message -------------- > > > You won't find a picture of any bike > "tracking"(not > > sliding) through a corner where you can 'see' any > > angular differemce between thebike centerline and > the > > front wheel alignment.. The counter steering is > such > > a small movement that it is not visible from > outside > > the bike. If you try the no-hands excercise at 50 > mph > > you will be hard pressed too see the initial > > deflection at all. And you'll also observe that > the > > 'Counter steering is minimal after the initial > > 'disturbance' of equlibrium that sets up a lean > angle. > > Try it. > > Lee > > > > --- klr250not wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > So far I havent found the picture I remember of > a > > > very distinct > > > countersteer to the left in a high-speed right > hand > > > turn. Most > > > racing pictures dont show any obvious > > > countersteering, so it must be > > > a temporary adjustment when it happens. I'll > keep > > > looking for the > > > picture I have in mind. > > > > > > > > > --- In DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com, "scttotis" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > THe part about this that I'm having trouble > with > > > is the part about > > > the > > > > left handlebar turn as the MC is fully leaned > over > > > into a right > > > turn, > > > > through out the right turn. It does make sense > to > > > me if the rear > > > end > > > > is sliding out left like it does on dirt > tracks, > > > but even in that > > > case > > > > the front would be steeeing right of the > tangent > > > line of the curve > > > it > > > > is tracing. The reason it doesn't sound right > is > > > because you should > > > > have a cornering force, squirm inducing > cornering > > > force, to bring > > > the > > > > front end around in the curve. We're going to > get > > > to the bottom of > > > > this sooner or later. > > > > > > > > --- In DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com, "klr250not" > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I wondered about this countersteering > business > > > in the MSF > > > course. > > > > > They briefly mentioned it, as I recall, but > said > > > it was more for > > > > > racers than beginners. I detect a little > > > disagreement in the > > > thread > > > > > as to what countersteering really is. Its > > > different than > > > counter > > > > > weighting--which we did practice in the MSF. > In > > > > > > counterweighting > > > > > drills we rode in tight figure 8s at a > crawl, > > > turning the front > > > tire > > > > > in the direction of the turn, obviously, but > > > > shifting ones > > > > > bodyweight away from the lean to keep the > bike > > > from falling over. > > > > > > > > > > Heres my definition of countersteering as > > > opposed to > > > > > counterweighting described above: > > > > > > > > > > Countersteering is turning the front wheel > in > > > the opposite > > > direction > > > > > of the turn and the lean. You'll see > sportbike > > > racers doing > > > this as > > > > > they round curves as high speed. In a right > > > turn, for example, > > > the > > > > > rider'll be leaned over so far to the right > that > > > their right > > > knee > > > > > will be skimming the pavement. At the same > > > time, the front tire > > > > > will be pointed maybe 20 degrees to the left > as > > > it would be if > > > > > making a left turn at very low speed. Soon > as I > > > relocate some > > > of > > > > > the pictures Ive seen of this, I'll post a > link. > > > > > > > > > > > > > By the way, I'm not convinced > countersteering > > > works at lower > > > speeds > > > > > but I might try it ever so slightly at 15-20 > mph > > > to see what > > > happens. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com, Alan L > > > Henderson > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > Lee Dodge wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Alan Henderson's earlier post > illustrated a > > > avoidance > > > > > > > technique that is an excellent example > of > > > this > > > > > > > principal. Try it, you can move the > wheels > > > over by 10 > > > > > > > and still basically NOT change course. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually it was Keith that mentioned it > first, > > > I just agreed > > > with > > > > > him. > > > > > > Interesting that we are all starting to > agree > > > with each other. > > > > > > Alan Henderson A13 Iowa > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > List sponsored by Dual Sport News at > > > www.dualsportnews.com > > > List FAQ courtesy of Chris Krok at: > > > www.bigcee.com/klr650faq.html > > > >

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