new to list and some questions

DSN_KLR650
Post Reply
Arden Kysely
Posts: 1578
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2001 8:18 am

skull caps and other methods of killing yourself - nklr

Post by Arden Kysely » Thu May 20, 2004 10:23 am

>If you ride at speeds less than 14 mph and are involved only > in accidents with stationary objects, you are golden.
Makes me wonder why road racers wear helmets, then. There's very few 14mph corners on a road-race circuit.
> He thinks anyone who > rides in a car should wear one. After all, he points out, head > injuries make up only 20% of serious injuries to motorcyclists, > but they account for 90% of all car injuries.
I've often said that if helmet-haters wanted to fight helmet laws, they should propose legislation requiring cagers to wear helmets. I wonder how many lives would be saved if we all wore just a bicycle helmet in our cars? __Arden

Mark Lewis

skull caps and other methods of killing yourself - nklr

Post by Mark Lewis » Thu May 20, 2004 10:29 am

"I've often said that if helmet-haters wanted to fight helmet laws, they should propose legislation requiring cagers to wear helmets. I wonder how many lives would be saved if we all wore just a bicycle helmet in our cars?" There was an article in a recent "Rider" magizine (I think) that said that motorcycle helmets are overbuilt and they would save more lives if designed like bicycle helmets. Being lighter and absorbing more shock would be a big improvement according to the guy that wrote it. Mark Lewis

KLR 650
Posts: 33
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2004 8:53 am

skull caps and other methods of killing yourself - nklr

Post by KLR 650 » Thu May 20, 2004 10:31 am

Arden Kysely wrote:
> wonder how many lives would be saved if we all wore just a bicycle > helmet in our cars?
It would make it too difficult to talk on the cell phone. :) jim

Zachariah Mully
Posts: 1897
Joined: Fri Apr 28, 2000 7:50 am

skull caps and other methods of killing yourself - nklr

Post by Zachariah Mully » Thu May 20, 2004 10:43 am

On Thu, 2004-05-20 at 10:39, Mark Lewis wrote:
> Compare Florida, a helmet state, with Iowa, a no-helmet state. > Florida has a beautiful, year-round riding season. Iowa has a long, > brutal winter. Yet Iowa has more than three times the number of
First, it is considered good form, not to mention illegal not to, to provide an attribution to your copy-paste. Another interesting statistic: Iowa ppl per sq mi: 52 Fla ppl per sq mi: 296 Cal ppl per sq mi: 217 nat'l avg: 79 (2000 US census) And, whomever you took this from got Florida wrong, you can ride helmetless as long as you're carrying extra insurance.
> otherwise. During the seven-year period from 1987 thruogh 1993, > states with no helmet laws or partial laws (for riders under 21) > suffered fewer deaths (2.89) per 100 accidents than those with full > helmet laws (2.93 deaths).
For this to be persuasive you'd want to show several things: population density in each state, # of registered motorcyclists/motorcycles, # of registered car drivers/cars, number of MSF certified riders. Incomplete statistical analysis is great fun to ignore.
> How can this be true? Is it possible that helmets don't work? Go to a > motorcycle shop and examine a Department-of-Transportation approved > helmet. Look deep into its comforting plush lining, and hidden amidst > the soft fuzz you'll find a warning label: "Some reasonably > forseeable impacts may exceed the helmet's capability to protect > against severe injury or death."
Hello?! Does somebody need to slap the same sticker on the author's forehead as well? Of course the helmet isn't going to protect you for *all* foreseeable impacts! Neither is your head!
> A typical > motorcycle accident, however, would be a biker traveling at, say 30 > mph, and being struck by a car making a left turn at, maybe 15 mph. > That's an effective cumulative impact of 45 mph. Assume the biker is > helmet-clad, and he is struct directly on the head. The helmet > reduces the blow to an impact of 31.34 mph.
Again, this is a nice dodge around using any physics to accurately describe an impact (and since when was t-boning a car turning left at 15mph, equal 45mph??? high school physics, anyone?). What he doesn't say (for a good reason, probably because he wears a "DOT" beanie) is that the most all name brand helmets are both SNELL and DOT certified, and that a certification only describes A MINIMUM. Any helmet manufacturer is free to make a helmet that far exceeds the ceritification test, there is no law against it, and most dual cert helmets probably exceed the DOT tests. As per the Hurt report, the median crash speed is ~20mph.
> Still enough to kill him. The collisions that helmets cushion > effectively - say, 7 mph motorcycles with 7 mph cars - are not only > rare, but eminently avoidable.
Again, he makes another nice, unsaid assumption, that motorcyclist is able to avoid the accident. Unfortunately, as the Hurt report points out, alcohol plays a part in nearly 50% of motorcycle accidents. And whereas a 7mph collision with a helmet is emminently survivable, I doubt the same can be said whilst helmetless.
> . Goldstein found that helmets begin > to increase one's chances of a fatal neck injury at speeds exceeding > 13 mph, about the same impact at which helmets can no longer soak up > kinetic energy. For this reason, Dr. Charles Campbell, a Chicago > heart surgeon who performs more than 300 operations per year and > rides his dark-violet, chopped Harley Softail to work at Micheal > Reese Hospital, refuses to wear a helmet. "Your head may be saved," > says Campbell, " but your neck will be broken."
This is an interesting argument. While I agree that the physics of helmet wearing do cause complications, the author doesn't speak of the survivablity of either head or neck injuries. Look at this way: if neck injuries were 10x less survivable, then yes, one might agree that riding helmetless had survivablity advantages. BUT I would imagine that a head injury would be less survivable due to the fact that it's large, contains a shitload of very complicated organs and nerves and sticks out at the end of your body. Either way, he doesn't make any argument for why a head injury is any better than a neck injury, so the "head safe, neck broken" argument has no weight.
> John G. U. Adams, of University College, London, cites another reason > not to wear a helmet. He found that helmet wearing can lead to > excessive risk taking due to the unrealistic sense of invulnerability > that a motorcyclist feels when he dons a helmet.
It's called stupidity. And retarded ABATE riders suffer from the same symptom. Again, a great slight of hand by the author. What I find complete hysterical about this article is that the author cites an example (hitting a left turning car) and how a helmet will only reduce the impact by 15mph BUT he never talks about the same impact without a helmet! WTF! In that situation, I doubt he could pull any retarded ABATE arguments out of his ass: *"But without a helmet, I would have seen the car and avoided the accident" Yeah, and that last shot of Jager you did at bar is helping you out as well. *"Without a helmet, I can jump off the bike and roll out of the accident" please see accident: an unforeseen and unplanned event or circumstance, it's kinda hard to jump off a bike and roll when you don't know you're supposed to, isn't it? *"But a helmet causes neck injuries!" Fine, I'll keep my neck injuries and you can have your: massive brain trauma hamburger face lack of jaw caved in skull lack of: eyes/ears/nose/lips/chin/cheekbones/forehead/scalp/teeth eating out of a straw for the rest of your life I support people's right to ride helmetless. But I really hate it when it's backed up with pseudo science and misleading statistics. Tell you what, find me an ABATEr who'll go head to head with me. The test will be to slam our heads into a wall at 14 mph, me with helmet, him w/o. After that, we'll have another test, our respective noggins get dragged across pavement at 30mph. Any takers? I didn't think so. Z DC A5X A12X

Mike Frey
Posts: 833
Joined: Sun Apr 04, 2004 10:53 am

skull caps and other methods of killing yourself - nklr

Post by Mike Frey » Thu May 20, 2004 10:44 am

Last week. Lancaster News always reports "He was wearing a helmet" or "He was not wearing a helmet". Unfortunately in the past 2 weeks we've had at least 4 locally, all wearing helmets. Mark Lewis wrote:
>When was the last time you saw a news item >mentioning that a dead biker was wearing a helmet? > > > >

Eric L. Green
Posts: 837
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2004 1:41 pm

skull caps and other methods of killing yourself - nklr

Post by Eric L. Green » Thu May 20, 2004 10:56 am

On Thu, 20 May 2004, Joshua Gorman wrote:
> Trust me, full face is the way to go, even if it is somewhat of an > inconvenience.
If you can't deal with the inconvenience, get a flip-face helmet. I've looked at the crash tests on those things. They're not quite as good as a full face (they can fail if the impact hits exactly on the latch), but they're still damn good. As a glasses wearer, I always hated the routine needed to put on a full face helmet.... glasses off... helmet on.... face shield flip up.... where are my glasses, I can't see to find my glasses without my glasses! oh there they are.... glasses on.... face shield flip down..... now I flip up the front of my HJC Symax, slam my bucket on, flip down the front, and that's that. And if THAT'S not convenient enough for you, maybe you ought to stick to driving a cage. _E

Kelly Walsh
Posts: 89
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2003 3:10 pm

skull caps and other methods of killing yourself - nklr

Post by Kelly Walsh » Thu May 20, 2004 11:09 am

"Tell you what, find me an ABATEr who'll go head to head with me. The test will be to slam our heads into a wall at 14 mph, me with helmet, him w/o. After that, we'll have another test, our respective noggins get dragged across pavement at 30mph. Any takers? I didn't think so." Well said. And I always thought banging my head against a wall was just for fun- who knew that it also held some empirical scientific value! Off to the brick wall with my full face.... Kelly Walsh Santa Fe, NM A17 GPz 550

Lujo Bauer
Posts: 750
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2002 5:07 pm

skull caps and other methods of killing yourself - nklr

Post by Lujo Bauer » Thu May 20, 2004 11:10 am

> Being lighter and absorbing more > shock would be a big improvement according to the guy that wrote it.
Isn't that as obvious as saying that a KLR would be better if it had more horsepower and less weight? The only problem is that (money and designers' stupidity aside) absorbing more shock takes more shock-absorbing material which makes for more weight. It's not like helmets are heavier than they need to be because manufacturers decorate them with chromed metal widgets. -Lujo [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Devon
Posts: 933
Joined: Sun Jun 03, 2001 7:13 pm

skull caps and other methods of killing yourself - nklr

Post by Devon » Thu May 20, 2004 11:13 am

mike21b@... wrote:
>Lancaster News always reports "He was wearing a helmet" or "He was not >wearing a helmet". > >Unfortunately in the past 2 weeks we've had at least 4 locally, all >wearing helmets. > > > >>When was the last time you saw a news item >>mentioning that a dead biker was wearing a helmet? >>
Look, a friggin' salad fork is dangerous if you're stupid and careless enough. Much less a motorcycle, or automobile. A helmet will not protect you in all circumstances. If you're dumb enough, it won't protect you in most circumstances (that you get your own dumb ass into). But, at reasonable legal speeds, a REAL DOT 3/4 helmet as a minimum, will prevent serious head trauma in the vast majority of accidents. A full face helmet will do the same but prevent all sorts of nasty facial injuries as well. It may make the difference between dying and living. It might make the difference between treated'n'released, or five years of physical therapy learning to walk and talk again. Suggesting that the entire helmet use debate is some sort of conspiracy is really silly. Suggesting that wearing helmets is useless, especially on a list with lots of new riders who may not know better, is plain f*&king irresponsible. Would you let your child ride a motorcycle without a helmet? Devon

Chris
Posts: 1250
Joined: Wed Jul 31, 2013 11:57 am

skull caps and other methods of killing yourself - nklr

Post by Chris » Thu May 20, 2004 11:16 am

Yeah that's all my point was about. Don't hold up a screwdriver and say it's excellent to drive nails. Sure it can, but it's surely not the intended purpose. When an argument is made in that way, it loses credibility for the underlying cause. I'm all for people owning/chosing whatever they like, just be straightforward about it though. Hiding behind silly agendas or stats is where I'm lost in any of it.
> "They lost me when they started saying an AK-47 is a valid and useful > tool for hunting deer." > > The second ammendment wasn't/isn't about hunting. It was/is about > the right to own weapons that were/are suitable for the militia. The > militia had to provide their own arms to defend the country against > tyrants (King George in that day). They were always quasi-military > weapons. I support the right of the people to "keep and bear arms". > I support the right to choose wheater to wear a helmet or not. I > wear one and I love "assult rifles." > > Mark Lewis

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 35 guests