help regarding clutch pull comparsion

[Riley]

I agree about riding within your bikes limits BUT I commute frequently on the KLR and in city traffic I can leave a 10 second interval between myself and the vehicle in front, so I should have no problem stopping in time right? Wrong. All that happens is that cars fill in that gap by changing lanes in front of me until the same smaller gap is there that is between everybody else. I have had one white knuckle braking experience in that exact situation. I could ride slower right....not in Montreal traffic, you just become a pylon, you gotta keep up or be passing here. I have upgraded to stainless lines and that helped some. I can get the front squirming as well but it is hard to modulate a front brake when you are using a death grip just to slow down. I do the same ride on my other scoot which has double disks and ABS and I can tell you it is a lot safer out there with better brakes! Riley A15 Montreal

----- Original Message ----- From: "James L. Miller Jr." To: DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Monday, March 08, 2004 9:39 AM Subject: [DSN_klr650] Re: Oversize Rotor now my rant > I must have the exception to the rule. I can't stand it on the front > wheel, but I can lock up every tire I've ever had on this bike, and > that's normally with just 2 fingers. Kenda Challengers, stock > Dunlop, and even the K270's. I can put them all to howling if I > want. > I've got no problem with people buying and selling these, that's > not the problem. It's people outriding their abilities, and blaming > a relatively good system for their own failures. Save your money. > Put it to good use, like a safety course or 2, some "correct" riding > gear, an AMA or Blue Ribbon Coalition donation/membership. > Yeah, the existing brake setup is a bit small for a skinny 21" > tire, with a contact patch the side of a postage stamp. But put the > same thing on a 16" or a wider street and you'll be scraping yourself > off the front fender. The RD350 Yamaha's owners found that out with > their measly little front disk. It's the same reason that you use a > cheater bar for rusted nuts. That tiny little brake on the big wheel > is like trying to bust the countershaft sprocket nut off with a 1/4" > ratchet. A 16" rim would be like a 1/2 or 3/4" ratchet on the same > nut. > But my nagging question is: how is that new rotor going to get you > out of that "I need more braking power now cause I've outridden my > skill level or road conditions" mess you've already found yourself in > before? If you can't ride within the limits of the bike, it's time > for something else, say a small scooter, until you learn to ride > within those limits. > Just how is that new supergrippystoponadime rotor going to give > you added stopping power when you're in the muck, mud, slime, sand, > gravel, dirt? I've got the scars to prove that the front will let > you know who's boss on any of those. I'll settle for my > supersloppycan'tstopworthafuckstockone that still locks it up on the > dirt or pavement if I want. More control. > But I like benefit for cost. I couldn't justify the cost of a > new hunnerddollar plastic gas tank just for 50 more miles of range, > how could I justify another $300 for something that will do what I > already have. > Maybe it's the "cool" factor, but Pookie definately ain't cool! I > grew out of being cool a long time ago, that's why I bought a KLR. > Someone gives me one free, sorry, no thanks. Cost/benefit ratio > just ain't there. I'll just wait for the glut of them that's sure to > show up on Ebay, along with the rest of the "front-ended, I just > couldn't stop in time" bikes. Makes the parts prices go lower. > I've been riding one motorized 2 wheeled thing or another since I > was 5. I'm now 38. Riding outside conditions and you're abilities > will outweigh all benefits of ALL installed devices. > I'm finished ranting. I'll let you guys spend your money. > > millerized > > Flame if you want, I stand by my opinions. And they are that- > opinions based on my years riding. Just because opinions are like > assholes (everyone has one, some stink, some are louder than others, > etc.) however doesn't make them any less valuable. The lesson you > learn from the old guy just might save your life someday. They have > for me. > > > > > > > --- In DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com, "rsanders30117" > wrote: > > > > Over sized front rotor beats all other KLR650 brake modifications. > > After almost rear ending a truck, I installed a M.A.P. over size > > rotor & the amount of improvement is amazing! Later I installed > > stainless braided brake line but couldn't really detect much > > improvement (I love to tinker). I guess the over sized rotor was > > such an improvement that braided brake lines couldn't do much more. > > > > If you are going the ride your KLR650 on the street, you really > > should install this upgrade. > > > > The only concern I have is that the larger front rotor appears more > > vulnerable. Having said that however, I've been off paved roads > many > > times & thankfully no problems yet but I would install a protective > > cover if I could find one that big. > > > > > > >

[Paul Dent]

>All other things being equal, a well > set up drum brake can stop you as fast as any disk.

I am 99% sure that disk brakes are considered superior to drums not because they stop faster but because they shed heat much better. They're also probably lighter. Paul A16L w/oversize rotor M750 'G' SF, CA

[James L. Miller Jr.]

Lujo, I'm not saying that locking it up is control. It's exactly opposite of control as proven in any safety course (at least the ERC). I'm just saying that I can control it up to and including locking the front. A bigger rotor isn't going to help you in the dirt if traction is your limiting factor in the first place. A bigger rotor with more stopping power isn't worth a crap if that's the case. If anything, you're going to have to be more careful with it as to prevent that lock. Not locking it will be the new learing curve. If I have complete control of my front brake, I can stop better than someone who can't control it. Is it worth spending $300 for something I can do now? No, not in my opinion. Anyone can lock a wheel on dirt, it's too easy. That's correct. Again with the pipe, twig, log or whatever. Correct as well. Pavement, from what I'm hearing, isn't all that easy on the KLR. Having the ability to control the brake up to full lock, when maximum braking power is there, is the key. Not some high priced gadget. Maybe that sponge is a bad bleed job? If you can't get full braking power, something other than a new rotor might be your first and cheapest solution: new braided line, new pads. Both of these alone is a massive improvement, but together my stock rotor with the above cheap solutions is more than adequate to stop my bike controllably. Just my opinion. Some people think that high price equates to performance. In some cases, that's more than true. But, in my years of riding and racing, some of the biggest suprises have been from the kid who could ride better on a stock machine than a tricked out megadollar machine. THAT's my reasoning for telling people to spend that brake money a bit more wiser, training, gear, and the like. That's the reason my lil' KLR smoked several liter bikes in the curvies. I'm by no means the best rider in the world, but experience dictates performance, not some add-on. millerized

--- In DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com, Lujo Bauer wrote: > > you know who's boss on any of those. I'll settle for my > > supersloppycan'tstopworthafuckstockone that still locks it up on the > > dirt or pavement if I want. More control. > > I don't buy that argument. The ability to lock a wheel isn't much of a > metric for judging how good the brakes are. Drum brakes can lock up > wheels just fine too. Does that mean that disc brakes are a waste of > money? For that matter, shoving a steel pipe through the spokes will > lock a wheel real nice. Should we abolish everything else just because > between draging your feet on the ground and sticking a pipe through the > spokes you can both slow down gradually and lock your wheels? > > Sure, many of the situations that a KLR finds itself in don't require > better brakes, but there are also plenty of situations when better > brakes would come in quite handy, even when you're not out-riding your > abilities. > > -Lujo > A13 with a stock rotor > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Riley]

I agree that 300 smackers is a lot of money which is why I'm hemming and hawing on ordering one myself. Lets face it, if the upgrade was 50$ we probably wouldn't be debating the merits in the same way. I find the stainless lines and a modified riding style make my KLRs brakes tolerable for highway/commuting use or else I certainly wouldn't do it, but for a road bike I find the brakes so so. I haven't ridden a bike with too much brakes yet. I couldn't agree more that the key is being able to control the braking of that wheel without locking it up, that is a function of rider ability as well as feedback from the brakes/tires themselves, but I would add that the actual distance it takes to stop is also important. That front wheel at 120 km/hr has a lot of energy stored in it, the fact that it eventually locks at close to zero rotation speed might not be the best gauge of sufficient braking power. Any physics wiz kids out there, I received a mercy pass so I may be talking out of my you know what. Riley A15 Montreal

----- Original Message ----- From: "James L. Miller Jr." To: DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Monday, March 08, 2004 5:46 PM Subject: [DSN_klr650] Re: Oversize Rotor now my rant > Lujo, > I'm not saying that locking it up is control. It's exactly > opposite of control as proven in any safety course (at least the > ERC). I'm just saying that I can control it up to and including > locking the front. A bigger rotor isn't going to help you in the > dirt if traction is your limiting factor in the first place. A > bigger rotor with more stopping power isn't worth a crap if that's > the case. If anything, you're going to have to be more careful with > it as to prevent that lock. Not locking it will be the new learing > curve. If I have complete control of my front brake, I can stop > better than someone who can't control it. Is it worth spending $300 > for something I can do now? No, not in my opinion. Anyone can lock > a wheel on dirt, it's too easy. That's correct. Again with the > pipe, twig, log or whatever. Correct as well. Pavement, from what > I'm hearing, isn't all that easy on the KLR. Having the ability to > control the brake up to full lock, when maximum braking power is > there, is the key. Not some high priced gadget. Maybe that sponge > is a bad bleed job? If you can't get full braking power, something > other than a new rotor might be your first and cheapest solution: > new braided line, new pads. Both of these alone is a massive > improvement, but together my stock rotor with the above cheap > solutions is more than adequate to stop my bike controllably. > Just my opinion. Some people think that high price equates to > performance. In some cases, that's more than true. But, in my > years of riding and racing, some of the biggest suprises have been > from the kid who could ride better on a stock machine than a tricked > out megadollar machine. THAT's my reasoning for telling people to > spend that brake money a bit more wiser, training, gear, and the > like. That's the reason my lil' KLR smoked several liter bikes in > the curvies. I'm by no means the best rider in the world, but > experience dictates performance, not some add-on. > millerized > > > --- In DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com, Lujo Bauer wrote: > > > you know who's boss on any of those. I'll settle for my > > > supersloppycan'tstopworthafuckstockone that still locks it up on > the > > > dirt or pavement if I want. More control. > > > > I don't buy that argument. The ability to lock a wheel isn't much > of a > > metric for judging how good the brakes are. Drum brakes can lock > up > > wheels just fine too. Does that mean that disc brakes are a waste > of > > money? For that matter, shoving a steel pipe through the spokes > will > > lock a wheel real nice. Should we abolish everything else just > because > > between draging your feet on the ground and sticking a pipe > through the > > spokes you can both slow down gradually and lock your wheels? > > > > Sure, many of the situations that a KLR finds itself in don't > require > > better brakes, but there are also plenty of situations when better > > brakes would come in quite handy, even when you're not out-riding > your > > abilities. > > > > -Lujo > > A13 with a stock rotor > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > List sponsored by Dual Sport News at www.dualsportnews.com. List FAQ courtesy of Chris Krok at: www.bigcee.com/klr650faq.html > Unsubscribe by sending a blank message to: > DSN_klr650-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com . > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > >

[gmounce@telus.net]

Now I've seen everything. A guy posts useful information about a safety upgrade to the KLR that's pertinent for everyone on the list, and he gets told to buy a scooter or take more lessons until he can handle his KLR. Am I missing the troll here or is that kind of unfair? Anyone who has ridden more than two bikes knows the KLR has a pretty weak front brake. I'd rather have something stronger on there and use a little extra caution off-road for the additional security on pavement. The reduced stopping distance is worth paying for in my opinion, and I really appreciated the posting. When it comes to brakes, more power is better. You can tell me to go take lessons if you like, but as a former roadrace school instructor and motorcycle tester, I feel like I'm capable enough on two wheels. gord

[bigfatgreenbike]

judjonzz@... wrote:

>It says here that if you can lock your front wheel, then all the brakes in the >world won't allow you to stop any faster. All other things being equal, a well >set up drum brake can stop you as fast as any disk. You can argue all you >want with that, but you will be wrong. >

You forgot "for a while" and "unless they're wet". You also forgot "loads of unsprung weight" since the equivalent to a modern twin rotor setup is a 14" double-sided twin leading shoe. Drums didn't go away for lack of outright power, they went away for lack of consistency. They didn't shed water well, never mind mud (unlike rotors which need barely one revolution of the wheel) and when hard braking heats them up, the drums expand away from the shoes. Then there's the effect on suspension. Remember those 50's GP bikes with 4" long front spokes, since the drum occupied most of the front wheel? Those guys would have traded their sister for the lightweight brakes that an R1 gets bone stock. -- Devon Brooklyn, NY A15-Z '01 KLR650 '81 SR500 cafe racer "The truth's not too popular these days....." Arnold Schwarzenneger, in The Running Man

[propagandrew]

"The reduced stopping distance is worth paying for in my opinion, and I really appreciated the posting. When it comes to brakes, more power is better." What I think people fail to understand is millerized's argument that if you are able to lock up your front wheel with your current rotor size, then there is NO WAY to further decrease your braking distance. This is fact. Either your brakes are capable of providing more force than the available traction or they are not. This is not to say that the way the brake lever pulls does not effect braking. If you are accustomed to the way your brake lever pulls and can brake with precision up to the point your tire locks, you will minimize your braking distance. Millerized says he is like one with his front brake lever and I'd have to believe him that, for him, the new rotor would be nothing but a downgrade in braking. Is this the case for everyone? Probably not. Do I think practiced rider with a stock rotor and a practiced rider with a larger rotor (all other things being equal) will stop in the exact same distance? Indeed. Andrew

--- In DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com, gmounce@t... wrote: > Now I've seen everything. A guy posts useful information about a safety > upgrade to the KLR that's pertinent for everyone on the list, and he gets told > to buy a scooter or take more lessons until he can handle his KLR. Am I > missing the troll here or is that kind of unfair? Anyone who has ridden more > than two bikes knows the KLR has a pretty weak front brake. I'd rather have > something stronger on there and use a little extra caution off-road for the > additional security on pavement. The reduced stopping distance is worth paying > for in my opinion, and I really appreciated the posting. When it comes to > brakes, more power is better. > > You can tell me to go take lessons if you like, but as a former roadrace > school instructor and motorcycle tester, I feel like I'm capable enough on two > wheels. > > gord

[Riley]

It is not only overcoming the traction of the tire that is required to lock the front wheel you also have to overcome all that rotational energy, that's why it's a lot harder to lock the wheel at 60 mph than at 10 mph. The assumption that I can lock my front tire at 10 mph and that is the maximum force I can ever apply without locking doesn't account for that. Cool e-mail address! Riley A15 Montreal

----- Original Message ----- From: "propagandrew" snip > What I think people fail to understand is millerized's argument that > if you are able to lock up your front wheel with your current rotor > size, then there is NO WAY to further decrease your braking distance. > This is fact. snip> > Andrew > > > --- In DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com, gmounce@t... wrote: > > Now I've seen everything. A guy posts useful information about a safety > > upgrade to the KLR that's pertinent for everyone on the list, and he > gets told > > to buy a scooter or take more lessons until he can handle his KLR. Am I > > missing the troll here or is that kind of unfair? Anyone who has > ridden more > > than two bikes knows the KLR has a pretty weak front brake. I'd > rather have > > something stronger on there and use a little extra caution off-road > for the > > additional security on pavement. The reduced stopping distance is > worth paying > > for in my opinion, and I really appreciated the posting. When it > comes to > > brakes, more power is better. > > > > You can tell me to go take lessons if you like, but as a former > roadrace > > school instructor and motorcycle tester, I feel like I'm capable > enough on two > > wheels. > > > > gord > > > > List sponsored by Dual Sport News at www.dualsportnews.com. List FAQ courtesy of Chris Krok at: www.bigcee.com/klr650faq.html > Unsubscribe by sending a blank message to: > DSN_klr650-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com . > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > >

[Chris Kirk]

Now I have to wade in 'cause I think an important aspect of this rotor thing is being missed .... I'm upgrading not only for the additional stopping power....... but more importantly, for me at least, is for the hoped for increased fade resistance. I don't know about you guys but I find that brake fade on the KLR is pretty pathetic. I'm hopeful the greater surface area & the semi floating aspects of the rotor will help. Fwiw, I have green pads & stainless lines & have learned to use a lighter touch in the dirt. Now with the larger rotors more finesse may be needed. That's fine by me & I'll adapt .... old dog that I am. Best - Chris A9 in yellow & white

--- In DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com, "propagandrew" wrote: > "The reduced stopping distance is worth paying for in my opinion, and > I really appreciated the posting. When it comes to brakes, more power > is better." > > What I think people fail to understand is millerized's argument that > if you are able to lock up your front wheel with your current rotor > size, then there is NO WAY to further decrease your braking distance. > This is fact. Either your brakes are capable of providing more force SNIP > Probably not. Do I think practiced > rider with a stock rotor and a practiced rider with a larger rotor > (all other things being equal) will stop in the exact same distance? > Indeed. > > Andrew

[identek]

I agree. The way I "feel at one" w/ the KLR, I am beginning to think that I was born with my KLR attached to my ass. In conjuction wiht the engine's "slowing" ability, I've never had much of a problem with the stock brakes, even with my 200 lb ass. If you rely on the front brake that much, you are riding the wrong machine (IMHO). -----Original Message----- From: propagandrew [mailto:propagandrew@...] Sent: Monday, March 08, 2004 9:15 PM To: DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com Subject: [DSN_klr650] Re: Oversize Rotor now my rant "The reduced stopping distance is worth paying for in my opinion, and I really appreciated the posting. When it comes to brakes, more power is better." What I think people fail to understand is millerized's argument that if you are able to lock up your front wheel with your current rotor size, then there is NO WAY to further decrease your braking distance. This is fact. Either your brakes are capable of providing more force than the available traction or they are not. This is not to say that the way the brake lever pulls does not effect braking. If you are accustomed to the way your brake lever pulls and can brake with precision up to the point your tire locks, you will minimize your braking distance. Millerized says he is like one with his front brake lever and I'd have to believe him that, for him, the new rotor would be nothing but a downgrade in braking. Is this the case for everyone? Probably not. Do I think practiced rider with a stock rotor and a practiced rider with a larger rotor (all other things being equal) will stop in the exact same distance? Indeed. Andrew

--- In DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com, gmounce@t... wrote: > Now I've seen everything. A guy posts useful information about a safety > upgrade to the KLR that's pertinent for everyone on the list, and he gets told > to buy a scooter or take more lessons until he can handle his KLR. Am I > missing the troll here or is that kind of unfair? Anyone who has ridden more > than two bikes knows the KLR has a pretty weak front brake. I'd rather have > something stronger on there and use a little extra caution off-road for the > additional security on pavement. The reduced stopping distance is worth paying > for in my opinion, and I really appreciated the posting. When it comes to > brakes, more power is better. > > You can tell me to go take lessons if you like, but as a former roadrace > school instructor and motorcycle tester, I feel like I'm capable enough on two > wheels. > > gord List sponsored by Dual Sport News at www.dualsportnews.com. List FAQ courtesy of Chris Krok at: www.bigcee.com/klr650faq.html Unsubscribe by sending a blank message to: DSN_klr650-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com . Yahoo! Groups Links