last call, copyright question...

[Trev]

I have not read this entire thread but just to muck it up some more from the Q & A on http://www.chp.ca.gov Can motorcycle riders "split" lanes and ride between other vehicles? Lane splitting by motorcycles is permissible but must be done in a safe and prudent manner. Which probably means you can do it but if a cop hasn't had his doughnut yet he might write you a ticket for it. If I have time I'll check the vehicle code and see what the specifics are. One thing you can't do in california with a car- if there are more than 2 lanes on a roadway you cannot leave the rightmost 2 lanes if you are pulling a trailer (found that out the hard way) Trev A16

[Devon Jarvis]

Actually knowing Karl face to face, I think you misunderstood (an easy thing by email). He was referring to the irritating phenomenon of people driving extremely expensive cars in NYC, then screaming at other motorists, pedestrians, etc if they come anywhere near the car. On top of this they will slam on the brakes and/or swerve without warning to avoid the many potholes, road plates, bumps, and railroad-tie temporary repairs that blanket the city's roads. Occasionally they'll do this with an SUV with 18" ground clearance, which is rather pathetic. It puts the motorcyclist in the position of observing the road surface up to a block ahead and predicting its effect on the traffic ahead of you. Filtering to the front of a stoplight is one of the safest times to lane-split, assuming you are going under 5mph and covering both brakes. It is common practice in NYC because it is an efficient way to get around, while reducing congestion. It is often tolerated by law enforcement unless you are acting recklessly. Devon A15 KLR Rider wrote:

> ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Devon Jarvis" > > It may be futile to explain to you that what's

legal, and what's safe

> riding practice, are not always the same thing. > > Very true... > > > Lane splitting is legal in CA, all of > > actually, not exactly true. As I understand it,

lanesplitting in Ca is only

> legal when traffic is below a certain speed but still

moving AND you

> maintain no more than 5 mph difference than the traffic.

As I don't often

> ride there I am not sure of the exact numbers - but

filtering or splitting

> through stopped traffic is NOT legal. > > > righteous or credible. I would rather argue a ticket

while standing on my

> feet, than lay in a hospital bed knowing I didn't > > break the law. > > Again, obviously true - and applicable to your example

about running the red

> light to avoid being hit. But NOT applicable to

pre-emptive law breaking

> just because you feel someone might come along and hit

you. That is the BIG

> difference. > > > Don't want to wait in traffic? Makes you mad when

others don't have

> to? How unbelievably childish. > > To me it is not the "I wait while others don't" - I could

care less. But it

> IS the impression that it gives that all bikers/riders are

law breakers. It

> is the same frustration I have when bicyclists want to

argue about having

> "full lane" privileges and all the rights of a motor

vehicle until they get

> to the red light, jump on the sidewalk and then cross

against the light

> through the crosswalk. > > I guess my point is that if you cannot ride legally and

stay within an

> evelope of safety that you are happy with, maybe you

shouldn't be riding.

> > No, I am not perfect and I don't always follow every law

and rule, but I try

> to most of the time. But breaking the law in and of

itself was not what

> started this, Karl bragging about pissing off another

motorist was.

> > -Scott

[Devon Jarvis]

It's not a big difference. Someone WILL come along and hit me, soon enough. I have seen this happen many, many times. And often the car that starts the chain reaction is three vehicles back where you can't see it in your mirrors. A fender-bender for a car is a trip to a hospital for a motorcyclist. But they don't teach that in driver's ed. Devon KLR Rider wrote:

> > > righteous or credible. I would rather argue a ticket while standing on my > feet, than lay in a hospital bed knowing I didn't > > break the law. > > Again, obviously true - and applicable to your example about running the red > light to avoid being hit. But NOT applicable to pre-emptive law breaking > just because you feel someone might come along and hit you. That is the BIG > difference.

[monahanwb]

--- In DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com, Devon Jarvis wrote:

> > He was referring to the irritating phenomenon of > people driving > extremely expensive cars in NYC, then screaming at other > motorists, > pedestrians, etc if they come anywhere near the car.

We share parking at my office with some medical offices nextdoor. Sometimes these doctors with big 840iLs or 500SEs like to park centered on the white line, taking up two spaces, so no one will be close to them and hit their car with the door. When I drive my old beater Benz, I just pull in there about four inches off the drivers door of the car to the right. That teaches them. I also miss my open face helmets. I used to be able to phling a big phlegm at drivers nosing into me, as I went past. Not possible with the full face. Damn. Not trying to give all motorcyclists the Boy Scout image. Car people need to grow up. They suck. I like to let them know that.

[Thomas J Komjathy]

Oh, your going to get run over!! When someone cuts me off etc. If I can, I'll make it a point to thank them for providing evasive practice, and help them to feel better by letting them know that many drivers of four wheel vehicles do what they have done. The look on there face when I tell them I'm with the Ga. Dept of Motor Vehicle Safety, Rider Education (not that it means anything, I don't issue tickets) well, it's priceless. They expect a rider to blast them, ("hell they're all crazy anyway") is the mindset of most drivers that don't ride. When they're approached like that, it's rare they forget it. Plus, during the communication, they get real uptight, wondering when I'm going to do something. If there's kids in the car, I'll usually end with "we don't want to hurt a rider having fun, right , kids. They always give a resounding "Yea." Now I've told the cagers kids how much fun it is to ride, they will be looking for riders, most likely reminding Mom or Dad, "look, there's a motorcycle." Shweeeeet!

----- Original Message ----- From: To: DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Monday, January 20, 2003 1:16 PM Subject: [DSN_klr650] Re: Visibility and safety > --- In DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com, Devon Jarvis wrote: > > > > He was referring to the irritating phenomenon of > > people driving > > extremely expensive cars in NYC, then screaming at other > > motorists, > > pedestrians, etc if they come anywhere near the car. > > We share parking at my office with some medical offices nextdoor. > Sometimes these doctors with big 840iLs or 500SEs like to park > centered on the white line, taking up two spaces, so no one will be > close to them and hit their car with the door. When I drive my old > beater Benz, I just pull in there about four inches off the drivers > door of the car to the right. That teaches them. > > I also miss my open face helmets. I used to be able to phling a big > phlegm at drivers nosing into me, as I went past. Not possible with > the full face. Damn. > > Not trying to give all motorcyclists the Boy Scout image. Car people > need to grow up. They suck. I like to let them know that. > > > List sponsored by Dual Sport News at www.dualsportnews.com. List FAQ courtesy of Chris Krok at: www.bigcee.com/klr650faq.html > Unsubscribe by sending a blank message to: > DSN_klr650-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com . > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > >

[Devon Jarvis]

"monahanwb " wrote: I also miss my open face helmets. I used to be able to phling a big

> phlegm at drivers nosing into me, as I went past. Not possible with > the full face. Damn.

I've tried. Not pretty. The first and last person I tried to present with a loogie was one of the people who skidded to a halt in the space I occupied the moment before at the stoplight. I rolled back and politely knocked on her window, she gave me the finger. But forgot to roll up the passenger side. She slowed for a left at the next intersection and I gave it my best shot. 3/4 splattered inside the chinbar, I hope the other 25% ended up in the car. Devon

[RM]

On Mon, 20 Jan 2003, KLR Rider wrote:

>actually, not exactly true. As I understand it, lanesplitting in Ca is >only legal when traffic is below a certain speed but still moving AND you >maintain no more than 5 mph difference than the traffic. As I don't >often ride there I am not sure of the exact numbers - but filtering or >splitting through stopped traffic is NOT legal.

Splitting or "lane-sharing" or "filtering" hasn't been specifically codified into law out here. It's one of those grey areas, and there are no standards for speed. It's generally a judgement-call thing, and any cop can find a way to write you for something if he really wants. RM

[thehowofnow]

Killer article on visibility! This reminds me when I rode a recumbant bike years ago. A strange looking contraption, for sure - sitting upright in a lawn chair on wheels, steering under the seat, pedaling with my legs out in front of me. There were times when I'd actually see (or atleast have a real solid-feeling hallucination) that some drivers would look at me and then decide to NOT SEE ME. It was like because I didn't fit some predetermined image they had in mind, they 'erased' me from their view. Wild. Short of wearing a gorrila suit, which according to this article wouldn't work anyway, it seems like driving as if you are invisible is the safest strategy. Thanks for passing along that url. On another note, re: riding in New York City, I was in NYC last Spring and saw an African American guy on a KLR. I got so excited, I raised my fist in the air and started waving at him. (I live in the mountains in Western Massachussets and ride every day I can, but this day I happened to be in the city and had on a suit, white shirt, red tie and wingtips.) The guy looked at me like I was a total idiot, and kept moving. If it's anyone on this list and you see a tall dweeb in a suit waving and grinning at you in the future, wave back! jfoust Message: 7 Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 09:34:11 -5:00 From: "Dave Morrow" Subject: Visibility and Safety Wanna feel good about visibility? Read this... http://www.amadirectlink.com/magazine/2001/story3sept.html The gist is that for many people it doesn't matter what you do, they aren't going to see you 'cause they're simply not looking for you. I've believed this for years. I gave up spending a lot of extra effort trying to be visible a long time ago. Sure bright colors, headlight modulators and such help a bit but they can also give you a false sense of security. Instead I ride like I'm completely invisible. I believe the key to survival is situational awareness. Always know what's going on around you, not just in front but to the sides and behind as well. Check your mirrors every time you use your brakes (in addition to all those other times you are already checking them, right?). Look at every situation where a vehicle is waiting to enter from the right or turn left and assume they will do it front of you - have an escape route ready and your brakes covered at all times when these situations present themselves (as they constantly do in any given ride). Any animal hanging out anywhere near the road has a 95% probability of running out in font of you. Take what some people refer to as defensive driving to a whole new level. Remember, it's the ones you don't see first that are most likely to kill you as our NM lister almost discovered. Bad stuff will still happen, you just have a much better chance to deal with it if you see it coming and are as ready as you can be. Wear good protective gear and do everything you can to never need it. That's just my opinion, I could be wrong... -- Dave Morrow

[KJ]

Ok, now I wasn't "bragging" about pissing this guy off, just telling a story about an incident that happened while filtering. Devon is right about some luxo car drivers, they totally freak if something gets to close to their precious ride. Hey its New York what do you expect? ever see As good as it gets? The seen where Jack Nikolson is walking down a busy sidewalk but doesn't want anyone to touch him..kind of like that. So on that note, next time I want to share, I'll save it for my therapist Karl A14 on 1/20/03 11:41 AM, KLR Rider at klr@... wrote:

> No, I am not perfect and I don't always follow every law and rule, but I try > to most of the time. But breaking the law in and of itself was not what > started this, Karl bragging about pissing off another motorist was. > > -Scott

[guymanbro]

No flames here Scott. Just three words for you. Location, location, location. Actions are dictated by the actions of those around you. when you are constantly cut off, pushed out of your lane, knocked down, and screamed at, you too will do your best to get the f#$@ away from all of them. Ride a mile in my commute and then talk about the "right" way to ride. I never split lanes anywhere besides NYC and I kinda figger Karl and Devon are the same way. When in Rome.... dat brooklyn bum

--- In DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com, "KLR Rider" wrote: > > Good riding safety at stop lights (or whenever stopped behind another vehicle) means you keep an escape route visible and watch as traffic is approaching. And just to answer some of the guaranteed to follow > flames, we participate in an unsafe activity. Justifying breaking the law because it "is safer" doesn't cut it. If you want to be "safer", drive a cage. > > -Scott