last call, copyright question...

[monahanwb]

--- In DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com, "KLR Rider" wrote:

> Thanks Karl - for further working to piss off the public about bikes > > I had some guy start yelling at me for filtering my way through

stopped

> > traffic in midtown NYC, apparently I got to close to his oh so

sweet black

> > BMW sedan. This guy was really pissed off, > Karl

I think "filtering" will become visible about everywhere, as streets become more and more crowded. If car people have to suffer through being pissed off like a little baby because the motorcyclist goes past him, well, that is just too bad. The car people need to grow up. Oh....I filter through traffic daily, and on the freeway as well. It's crowded around here, urban Northern California. Anywhere it's really crowded with traffic, you have "filtering". And it is lots safer than running the risk of being slammed from behind (has happened to friends of mine) by some yuppie real estate agent who can't keep his hands off his stupid cell phone.

[Zachariah Mully]

On Sun, 19 Jan 2003, KLR Rider wrote:

> Thanks Karl - for further working to piss off the public about bikes. Seems > so frustrating to those of us trying to build a better image. You are doing > something illegal (in most states).

Dunno where you live, but if you're in a major metropolitian area, it's tolerated to a certain extent, even where it is illegal. And I am tired of having to represent all motorcyclists, there is a huge difference between filtering to the front and doing triple-digit double-lane passes. And what are the cagers pissed off about? The fact that they're stuck in traffic and you're not... The reaction is same *regardless* of vehicle, it's the same if I am on my KLR, my Specialized or my Vespa. Why is it that the US is the only country in the world to totally ignore two wheeled vehicles as viable forms of transportation?

> Good riding safety at stop lights (or whenever stopped behind another > vehicle) means you keep an escape route visible and watch as traffic is > approaching. Not only the car behind you but also the one behind that one, > etc. Keep the bike in gear and ready to 'jump' if you have to.

Yes, that's good riding in *theory* but not always in practice. I don't filter to the front unless traffic is really really bad. When it's bad, I will if I can, I think that actively avoiding dangerous situations is a hell of a lot better than passively waiting to take it up the hoohah by some moron lawyer on her cell phone..

> Sorry to be so sarcastic, but I analogize your actions right up there with > loud pipes arguments. And just to answer some of the guaranteed to follow > flames, we participate in an unsafe activity. Justifying breaking the law > because it "is safer" doesn't cut it. If you want to be "safer", drive a > cage. > > -Scott

What's unsafe about motorcycling??? Z DC A5X A11X

[KJ]

Actually I filter to get home faster not only because it's safer. If I am riding in a more suburban area and if things aren't to backed up I'll play by the rules. However in the madness of Manhattan it's about survival and getting through the gridlocked traffic. And no matter what you do in NYC somebody is going to be pissed off at you. If you stay in line with the cars you are likely to get bumped by a taxi trying to scoot you along. I have had this happen and the cab driver thought it was pretty funny until I started kicking has car, than he looked at me like "ok ok just messing with ya". Riding between the stopped cages is really the only way, keep moving. I know it's different outside of congested urban areas but come ride in NYC and you'll soon be doing the same. Karl A14 on 1/19/03 7:22 PM, KLR Rider at klr@... wrote:

> Thanks Karl - for further working to piss off the public about bikes. Seems > so frustrating to those of us trying to build a better image. You are doing > something illegal (in most states). > > Good riding safety at stop lights (or whenever stopped behind another > vehicle) means you keep an escape route visible and watch as traffic is > approaching. Not only the car behind you but also the one behind that one, > etc. Keep the bike in gear and ready to 'jump' if you have to. > > Sorry to be so sarcastic, but I analogize your actions right up there with > loud pipes arguments. And just to answer some of the guaranteed to follow > flames, we participate in an unsafe activity. Justifying breaking the law > because it "is safer" doesn't cut it. If you want to be "safer", drive a > cage. > > -Scott > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "KJ" >> So true, It's harder to get rear ended if you keep moving forward, I try > not >> >> I had some guy start yelling at me for filtering my way through stopped >> traffic in midtown NYC, apparently I got to close to his oh so sweet black >> BMW sedan. This guy was really pissed off, > Karl > >

[kgeo52]

Well, I don't care if my bike gets hit ... as long as I don't get hit. The bike can be replaced, I can't. I wear a See-Bak reflective vest ( model S-B 700 ). http://www.seebak.com/ If I get hit and fly off the bike, I have the reflective stuff not the bike! My wife says that when she is following me in a car that I stand out even when I am a hundred yards away on the highway. Others have made similar comments. As far as getting rear ended, I never stop in the middle of the land. I always stop to the side. That way I might get clipped but I probably will not get crushed.

--- In DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com, "Tony Sansom" wrote: > In principle, I agree with the idea of making ourselves as visible as possible. However, a number of points on the subject: > > I have spent a lot of money on safety riding equipment already. Do I really need to make myself and my bike look ridiculous in order not be harmed by the careless? Where do we draw the line? > > We are all equally responsible for looking out for each other, whatever kind of vehicle we use. By making ourselves more visible, aren't we making others lazier? > > How useful is hi-viz when somebody piles into the car behind you (stationary) and pushes it into you (stationary), as happened to me last year?

[killer650@attbi.com]

You WILL get killed in Texas for filtering. People go out of their way to wad you up. I still do it in dead stop traffic. Passed a cop doing it one time and - I think- he turned the lights on and blurped the siren for me. Damn iPod... That cruiser was not going anywhere.

> Actually I filter to get home faster not only because it's safer. If I am > riding in a more suburban area and if things aren't to backed up I'll play > by the rules. However in the madness of Manhattan it's about survival and > getting through the gridlocked traffic. And no matter what you do in NYC > somebody is going to be pissed off at you. If you stay in line with the cars > you are likely to get bumped by a taxi trying to scoot you along. I have had > this happen and the cab driver thought it was pretty funny until I started > kicking has car, than he looked at me like "ok ok just messing with ya". > Riding between the stopped cages is really the only way, keep moving. I know > it's different outside of congested urban areas but come ride in NYC and > you'll soon be doing the same. > > Karl > A14 > > > > > > on 1/19/03 7:22 PM, KLR Rider at klr@... wrote: > > > Thanks Karl - for further working to piss off the public about bikes. Seems > > so frustrating to those of us trying to build a better image. You are doing > > something illegal (in most states). > > > > Good riding safety at stop lights (or whenever stopped behind another > > vehicle) means you keep an escape route visible and watch as traffic is > > approaching. Not only the car behind you but also the one behind that one, > > etc. Keep the bike in gear and ready to 'jump' if you have to. > > > > Sorry to be so sarcastic, but I analogize your actions right up there with > > loud pipes arguments. And just to answer some of the guaranteed to follow > > flames, we participate in an unsafe activity. Justifying breaking the law > > because it "is safer" doesn't cut it. If you want to be "safer", drive a > > cage. > > > > -Scott > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "KJ" > >> So true, It's harder to get rear ended if you keep moving forward, I try > > not > >> > >> I had some guy start yelling at me for filtering my way through stopped > >> traffic in midtown NYC, apparently I got to close to his oh so sweet black > >> BMW sedan. This guy was really pissed off, > Karl > > > > > > > List sponsored by Dual Sport News at www.dualsportnews.com. List FAQ courtesy of > Chris Krok at: www.bigcee.com/klr650faq.html > Unsubscribe by sending a blank message to: > DSN_klr650-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com . > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > >

[Devon Jarvis]

Scott, It may be futile to explain to you that what's legal, and what's safe riding practice, are not always the same thing. Traffic laws in many places completely predate urban sprawl and congestion. Not to mention the truly sorry state of motorist education in the US. Lane splitting is legal in CA, all of Europe, and basically the rest of the world. Only in the rest of the US are motorcycles regarded solely as playthings. Try living and riding in NYC for a while, until then your indignation isn't quite so righteous or credible. I would rather argue a ticket while standing on my feet, than lay in a hospital bed knowing I didn't break the law. "Keeping an escape route in front of you" means you absolutely will be cut off and forced out of your lane in NYC. Breaking an arbitrary and outdated law becauseyou can increase your personal safety without putting others at risk, absolutely does cut it. Of course I watch my mirrors when I stop, and I've had to run red lights (usually cutting right or left to avoid entering the intersection) to avoid the car with all four wheels locked, that ended up right where I was. Don't want to wait in traffic? Makes you mad when others don't have to? How unbelievably childish. When you rip out the radio, heater, roof, and AC from your car then I'll take your complaint seriously. Devon A15 KLR Rider wrote:

> Thanks Karl - for further working to piss off the public about bikes. Seems > so frustrating to those of us trying to build a better image. You are doing > something illegal (in most states). > > Good riding safety at stop lights (or whenever stopped behind another > vehicle) means you keep an escape route visible and watch as traffic is > approaching. Not only the car behind you but also the one behind that one, > etc. Keep the bike in gear and ready to 'jump' if you have to. > > Sorry to be so sarcastic, but I analogize your actions right up there with > loud pipes arguments. And just to answer some of the guaranteed to follow > flames, we participate in an unsafe activity. Justifying breaking the law > because it "is safer" doesn't cut it. If you want to be "safer", drive a > cage. > > -Scott > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "KJ" > > So true, It's harder to get rear ended if you keep moving forward, I try > not > > > > I had some guy start yelling at me for filtering my way through stopped > > traffic in midtown NYC, apparently I got to close to his oh so sweet black > > BMW sedan. This guy w

[noriolefan@aol.com]

Hey Karl, that may have been you I saw the Sunday before new years in Manhatten. It was either on 7th or Broadway somwhere near Time Square (my first time in NY, I am a country boy at heart). I had my back to the road and heard that distinctive sound, turned around and saw KLR moving at a pretty good pace. I thought that guy must be crazy riding a motorcycle in Manhatten. I try to ride by the rules but I can see how I might do things a little different if I had to ride in NYC. Earl A16 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Dave Morrow]

Wanna feel good about visibility? Read this... http://www.amadirectlink.com/magazine/2001/story3sept.html The gist is that for many people it doesn't matter what you do, they aren't going to see you 'cause they're simply not looking for you. I've believed this for years. I gave up spending a lot of extra effort trying to be visible a long time ago. Sure bright colors, headlight modulators and such help a bit but they can also give you a false sense of security. Instead I ride like I'm completely invisible. I believe the key to survival is situational awareness. Always know what's going on around you, not just in front but to the sides and behind as well. Check your mirrors every time you use your brakes (in addition to all those other times you are already checking them, right?). Look at every situation where a vehicle is waiting to enter from the right or turn left and assume they will do it front of you - have an escape route ready and your brakes covered at all times when these situations present themselves (as they constantly do in any given ride). Any animal hanging out anywhere near the road has a 95% probability of running out in font of you. Take what some people refer to as defensive driving to a whole new level. Remember, it's the ones you don't see first that are most likely to kill you as our NM lister almost discovered. Bad stuff will still happen, you just have a much better chance to deal with it if you see it coming and are as ready as you can be. Wear good protective gear and do everything you can to never need it. That's just my opinion, I could be wrong... -- Dave Morrow Vermilion, Ohio "it is better to go into a turn slow and come out fast, than go into a turn fast and come out dead." - Stirling Moss

[KLR Rider]

----- Original Message ----- From: "Devon Jarvis" > It may be futile to explain to you that what's legal, and what's safe riding practice, are not always the same thing. Very true... > Lane splitting is legal in CA, all of actually, not exactly true. As I understand it, lanesplitting in Ca is only legal when traffic is below a certain speed but still moving AND you maintain no more than 5 mph difference than the traffic. As I don't often ride there I am not sure of the exact numbers - but filtering or splitting through stopped traffic is NOT legal. > righteous or credible. I would rather argue a ticket while standing on my feet, than lay in a hospital bed knowing I didn't > break the law. Again, obviously true - and applicable to your example about running the red light to avoid being hit. But NOT applicable to pre-emptive law breaking just because you feel someone might come along and hit you. That is the BIG difference. > Don't want to wait in traffic? Makes you mad when others don't have to? How unbelievably childish. To me it is not the "I wait while others don't" - I could care less. But it IS the impression that it gives that all bikers/riders are law breakers. It is the same frustration I have when bicyclists want to argue about having "full lane" privileges and all the rights of a motor vehicle until they get to the red light, jump on the sidewalk and then cross against the light through the crosswalk. I guess my point is that if you cannot ride legally and stay within an evelope of safety that you are happy with, maybe you shouldn't be riding. No, I am not perfect and I don't always follow every law and rule, but I try to most of the time. But breaking the law in and of itself was not what started this, Karl bragging about pissing off another motorist was. -Scott

[Thomas J Komjathy]

Pissing off another person in a car falls under the 4000/400 rule, 4000lbs vs. 400lbs.

----- Original Message ----- From: "KLR Rider" To: ; "KLR650 group" DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Monday, January 20, 2003 11:41 AM Subject: Re: [DSN_klr650] Re: Visibility and safety > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Devon Jarvis" > > It may be futile to explain to you that what's legal, and what's safe > riding practice, are not always the same thing. > > Very true... > > > Lane splitting is legal in CA, all of > > actually, not exactly true. As I understand it, lanesplitting in Ca is only > legal when traffic is below a certain speed but still moving AND you > maintain no more than 5 mph difference than the traffic. As I don't often > ride there I am not sure of the exact numbers - but filtering or splitting > through stopped traffic is NOT legal. > > > righteous or credible. I would rather argue a ticket while standing on my > feet, than lay in a hospital bed knowing I didn't > > break the law. > > Again, obviously true - and applicable to your example about running the red > light to avoid being hit. But NOT applicable to pre-emptive law breaking > just because you feel someone might come along and hit you. That is the BIG > difference. > > > Don't want to wait in traffic? Makes you mad when others don't have > to? How unbelievably childish. > > To me it is not the "I wait while others don't" - I could care less. But it > IS the impression that it gives that all bikers/riders are law breakers. It > is the same frustration I have when bicyclists want to argue about having > "full lane" privileges and all the rights of a motor vehicle until they get > to the red light, jump on the sidewalk and then cross against the light > through the crosswalk. > > I guess my point is that if you cannot ride legally and stay within an > evelope of safety that you are happy with, maybe you shouldn't be riding. > > No, I am not perfect and I don't always follow every law and rule, but I try > to most of the time. But breaking the law in and of itself was not what > started this, Karl bragging about pissing off another motorist was. > > -Scott > > > > List sponsored by Dual Sport News at www.dualsportnews.com. List FAQ courtesy of Chris Krok at: www.bigcee.com/klr650faq.html > Unsubscribe by sending a blank message to: > DSN_klr650-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com . > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > >