speaking of hardware (jake or fred)

[Brad Morris]

Trevor, I think each state sets up their own test course. I've been told by more than one person that the MSF course is more of a tutorial done on 200cc bikes, and that they give you much more space to execute your manuvers than the DMV course does. This is confirmed by the fact that the MSF booklet that I got with my bike recommends you practice your slalom around the tips of parking lot stripes (which I can do easily) but the DMV course is way tighter than that. Plus the mind set is different. At the DMV test you have a person standing there with a clipboard watching for mistakes. At the MSF course, you have people dedicated to training you to safely operate a motorcycle. The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of taking the MSF course. I will probably take the Dirt Bike course while I'm at it. Let us know how the California Test is set up. Take care, Brad

> > All this talk of the DMV test has me curious. I took > the MSF Beginner Rider > Course, and in California they waive your DMV test > if you present the MSF > certificate. I'm about 1 mile from the nearest DMV,, > now I'm tempted to > ride down there after hours sometime and check out > this infamous circle... > > Are the skills tested by the DMV the same ones you > practice in the MSF course? > > -Trevor > > > Checkout Dual Sport News at > http://www.dualsportnews.com > Be part of the Adventure! > > Visit the KLR650 archives at > http://www.listquest.com/lq/search.html?ln=klr650 > > Post message: DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com > Subscribe: DSN_klr650-subscribe@yahoogroups.com > Unsubscribe: DSN_klr650-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > List owner: DSN_klr650-owner@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > >

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[Ted Palmer]

monahanwb@... wrote: [...]

> I sometimes enjoy seeing how far I can roll the bike backwards down a > slight incline without putting down a foot. Usually, not very far. > But it's still fun.

I like to see how long I can stop and keep my feet up. For extra points I try it one-handed; slowing down, changing gears down to neutral and stopping. Damn it looks good when I get it right. As a side note, one of the instructors at my city's Honda Australia Rider Training school had an interesting exercise. He would ride one of the CBX750P police bikes slowly and standing on the pegs, and ride up to a cone and plant the front brake to compress the forks. When he released the brake and shifted his weight back, the bike would roll backward a couple of metres and he would give it a rev and clutch the bike forward again to the cone and repeat, and repeat... That certainly impressed the hell out of me. You'd think that the slushy forks of a well-used KLR600 could be a marvelous temporary store of energy, but I am yet to emulate my instructor. Mister_T Melbourne Australia

[Brad J. Morris]

Cool, a new trick to try. I think the key to doing this (besides exceptional skill) is to keep your upper body moving forward (just an inch or two) until after the bike has started moving backward so that there is always motion to help stablize the bike. Sort of a rubberband effect. I'm just guessing here. Brad

> As a side note, one of the instructors at my city's Honda Australia > Rider Training school had an interesting exercise. He would ride > one of the CBX750P police bikes slowly and standing on the pegs, and > ride up to a cone and plant the front brake to compress the forks. > When he released the brake and shifted his weight back, the bike would > roll backward a couple of metres and he would give it a rev and clutch > the bike forward again to the cone and repeat, and repeat... > That certainly impressed the hell out of me.

[jonathan.sykes@ps.ge.com]

People take this test everyday on all different kinds of bikes. Many of them pass. It's not the course that's at fault here. This is a test - it's tests the rider's abilities. Plain and simple. You're going to need to be able to know how to balance the bike and use a combination of balance, clutch, throttle and brake everytime your ride the thing. The statement about someone riding for 22 years and not being able to make the course is pretty scary - no offense to you or your brother. It kind of somehow makes me think of those drivers who race away from the traffic lights, but can't take a corner for sh*t and don't know how to overtake. You could probobly put a monkey in an automatic car and they'd pass the American drivers test (automobile, at least). Let's be thankful the bike test is a (little) bit more difficult. It may actually save some of our lives one day. It's a funny old world, innit? Scott, I appreciate your comments, but I let my brother (who has been riding motorcycles since he was 17 (22 years ago)) try the course it on my KLR and he couldn't even do the slalom the first time. Let me tell you, he's a very competent rider. He's ridden thousands of miles on everything from screaming dirt bikes to the Valkirie (spelling?) and currently rides a Vmax. So in theory your comments sound great, but reality they are not applicable. The KLR is a top heavy bike that is very hard to ride slowly. I was just asking for riding tips on a tight course. I assure you that I am a very safe operator of all motor vehicles. I haven't had a ticket of any kind in 20 years (I'm 37), and I am astutely aware of what's going on around me at all times. As far as what other countries regulations are...(i won't say it). No offense Brad Jon Sykes [mailto://jonathan.sykes@...] GE Smallworld [39.615 N, 104.899 W]

[jonathan.sykes@ps.ge.com]

Just wanted to add another thing. I took my 2-part motorcycle test in the UK in 1984. I rode over here for a year before deciding to take my test (I've lived here since '92). My test was at 9am on Septemter 11th (2 months ago). The first thing my tester asked me was 'did you hear the news?' Even with all that going through my head, I passed. -----Original Message----- From: Sykes, Jonathan (PS, GE Smallworld) Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2001 10:32 AM To: 'DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com' Subject: Re: NKLR Motorcycle License

[Brad J. Morris]

>> People take this test everyday on all different kinds of bikes. Many of >> them pass. It's not the course that's at fault here.

I'm not assigning fault. I simply asked for tips on getting a KLR650 around an extremely tight course. You seem awfully defensive for some reason.

>>This is a test - it's tests the rider's abilities. Plain and simple.

Actually it only tests a very limited number of a rider's abilities, and in my opinion, not the most important ones.

>>You're going to need to be able to know how to balance the bike and use a combination of balance, >> clutch, throttle and brake every time your ride the thing.

I've been riding the thing for a month now and even had to lock it up once when someone blew a stop sign right in front of me. I never even came close to losing control of the bike. Though I did come close to losing control of my bladder. My point is, this test not a legitimate test of the ability to handle a motorcycle safely. How often have you rode at 2-3 miles an hour while weaving outside of objects spaced 10 ft apart 3 feet off-center WITHOUT BEING ABLE TO PUT YOUR FEET DOWN? I mean it. In all of your riding time you have ever had to do this? Ever? Once? In each reply you've made, your statements contain facts, but they are irrelevant to real world situations. Of course we need to know how to balance, brake, ect., ect. That's obvious. The point is, does the slalom measure any skill that is applicable to safe real world riding? About the only time I could even imagine having to do this would be if I got stuck in the middle of the desert during a rattlesnake migration. So from that standpoint I guess it could save my life to be able to do this. But even then, the KLR could probably squish rattlesnakes at a fairly high rate of speed and still keep me in control. In fact, I think that should be a DMV test...hmmm.

>> The statement >> about someone riding for 22 years and not being able to make the course is >> pretty scary - no offense to you or your brother.

Why is it scary? He is a great rider, the slalom is very difficult, he was on a bike he's never ridden before, and I don't know very many riders who go out of their way to practice sharp turns at 2-3 miles per hour without putting their feet down. If you'd like, I'll get you the set-up (sorry, it will have to be in feet and inches, you know how us Americans are) and you can try it on a bike you've never ridden before. Then let me know how many times out of 5 you can do it. No practice. Kinda scary huh?

>> It kind of somehow makes >> me think of those drivers who race away from the traffic lights, but can't >> take a corner for sh*t and don't know how to overtake. You could probably >> put a monkey in an automatic car and they'd pass the American drivers test.

You sound a little full of yourself there (this is a common European mind set that is hard to get rid of). Now as far as the monkey goes, that is just a ridiculous statement. It took me 6 months of classroom and behind the wheel drivers education classes before I could even take my road exam.

>> Let's be thankful the bike test is a (little) bit >> more difficult. It may actually save some of our lives one day.

Gosh, that sounds so good, but do you REALLY BELIEVE that being able to complete the slalom test WITHOUT PUTTING MY FEET DOWN (that's the only test I've ever referred to in this entire thread) WILL ever save my life? Do you really believe that? Or do you just like saying things that sound good? I look forward to the test. I will feel a great sense of satisfaction if I pass it. Based on your comments, those of us who have passed the American test shouldn't feel that great of a sense of satisfaction because it's not as good as the UK test. Give me a break. Thank you all for your comments, I have nothing else to add to this thread. Brad

[Devon Jarvis]

It measures how much thought, effort, and time you have put into practicing for the test. In the midst of all this it's assumed you have practiced other things like panic stops etc. It measures your control of the bike, in a situation that is primarily unlikely to result in your death or serious injury while the test is taking place. Secondary is the actual similarity to road conditions. Yes, you got a few posts back that sacrificed diplomacy and courtesy for brevity, but I have seen a guy ride a GOLDWING through a similar obstacle course not only without putting his foot down, but without appearing to even try very hard. Yes, he was extremely experienced, yes it will be easier for you on a small bike, and no it's not the course or your bike. Please practice a lot more, you need the actual operation of the bike to be second nature so you can concentrate on the road. Buy a motorcyle trials instruction video, and watch how they lean the bike for practicing slow speed figure-eights. Go to an empty parking lot at night, practice going in slow tight circles with your feet on the pegs. Get a bunch of empty milk cartons, oil cans etc. and set up your own slalom course. Practice the actual test until it's so easy you'll be bored while taking it. If you lean to the outside and "push" the bike down to the inside of the turn beneath you, it will turn tighter than the angle of steering lock would appear to permit. Devon 78 SR500 81 SR500 01 KLR650 "Brad J. Morris" wrote:

> > >> People take this test everyday on all different kinds of bikes. Many of > >> them pass. It's not the course that's at fault here. > > I'm not assigning fault. I simply asked for tips on getting a KLR650 around an extremely tight course. You seem awfully defensive > for some reason.

The point is, does the slalom measure any skill that is applicable to safe real world riding?

>

[scott_squire@hotmail.com]

--- In DSN_klr650@y..., "Brad J. Morris" wrote (among other things): ...

> Actually it only tests a very limited number of a rider's abilities,

and in my opinion, not the most important ones. ...

> I've been riding the thing for a month now and [...] I > never even came close to losing control of the bike.

Wow, a month? And never got into trouble in ALL THAT TIME? You're probably right, then, there couldn't be any skills in that dumb ol' test that could be of any use to you ;^) ...

> My point is, this test not a legitimate test of the ability to handle

a motorcycle safely. A comprehensive test of the ability to handle a motorcycle safely? Of course not. A legitimate test? Absolutely.

>How often have you rode at 2-3 miles an hour > while weaving outside of objects spaced 10 ft apart 3 feet

off-center WITHOUT BEING ABLE TO PUT YOUR FEET

> DOWN? I mean it. In all of your riding time you have ever had to

do this? Ever? Once? Had to? No, well, except in observed trials. Done so? Yes, *A LOT*, by way of practicing just the kinds of useless skills you're railing against. Why? Because I'm interested in being a good motorcyclist. Can you honestly not imagine that learning things you don't use every day could be useful to you in the bigger picture of your bike-handling skill-set? Have you ever ridden on the street with a good street ride who also races motocross? Were they jumping curbs and blasting street-roost around every corner? Probably not, but were they smooth, quick, predictable? Probably so. Lots of skills in MX look nothing like street-riding skills, but nevertheless translate in the bigger picture. I hope you can see the analogy I'm making. ...

> The point is, does the slalom measure any skill that is

applicable to safe real world riding? Directly? Yes. Indirectly? Hell, yes. If you can't see it, sell your motorcycle, please.

> ... I don't know very > many riders who go out of their way to practice sharp turns at

2-3 miles per hour without putting their feet down. Maybe you should be hanging around with better riders. I'll bet a third, maybe half the folks on this list do just that, or something similar, deliberately, just for the sake of practicing, with some regularity. Why not go out to a parking lot and do lock-to-lock figure eights for half an hour, and see how much better you get at it. Then see if you don't feel more solid on the bike next time you're on a windy road. Give it a try, seriously. You might just be amazed. ...

> You sound a little full of yourself there...

[this wasn't directed at me, but I will comment that confidence is crucial to safe motorcycling as well as good discourse. Arrogance is crucial to neither and is dangerous in both. The lister to whom this was directed seemed to me to be speaking from confidence, not from arrogance.]

> (this is a common European mind set that is hard to get rid of).

Uncalled-for.

> Based on your comments, those of us who have passed > the American test shouldn't feel that great of a sense of

satisfaction because it's not as good as the UK test. Give me a break. I agree with the original poster there. Would you care to go and try the UK test, Brad? Or Holland's, or Belgium's, or Sweden's, or Norway's, or Italy's? Would you care to speculate on the ways in which any of these tests is inferior to those typically required in the US? Do you really believe our tests (here in the good-ol' US of A) are tougher, or do you just like saying things that sound nationalistic? We have an amazing country, but one of its strong suits is *not* the competence of its drivers. I'll close this too-long post by saying that I really do wish Brad the best of luck in his test. I have no doubt he can do it. And please don't mistake--I'm not reacting to Brad personally, but to his (apparently somewhat inconsistent) ideas that the DMV tests are foolish, and that US tests are somehow beyond reproach. Best Scott Squire '89 KLR650, with lots of doodads stuck to it.

[Devon Jarvis]

Just my $.02 here, having traveled to a few European countries and actually driven in two of them, I have to say that American motor-vehicle licensing, and average american motorists are hands down the worst in the developed world. Compared to the average European country's requirements, a mentally deficient chimpanzee could almost get a license here. The British system in particular has you on a 33hp bike for the first year or two, and then you get to move up to a bigger bike. Not that I would prefer to live under their rules, but really- I have seen better drivers in central Turkey. So yes, the US licensing tests are a complete joke. Devon snip

> > Based on your comments, those of us who have passed > > the American test shouldn't feel that great of a sense of > satisfaction because it's not as good as the UK test. Give me a > break. > > I agree with the original poster there. Would you care to go and > try the UK test, Brad? Or Holland's, or Belgium's, or Sweden's, or > Norway's, or Italy's? Would you care to speculate on the ways in > which any of these tests is inferior to those typically required in > the US?

[Ted Palmer]

Brad J. Morris wrote: [...]

> Actually it only tests a very limited number of a rider's abilities, and in my opinion, not the most important ones.

What is most important? [...]

> I've been riding the thing for a month now and even had to lock it up once when someone blew a stop sign right in front of me. I > never even came close to losing control of the bike. Though I did come close to losing control of my bladder.

If your braking was technically correct then you wouldn't have locked it.

> My point is, this test not a legitimate test of the ability to handle a motorcycle safely. How often have you rode at 2-3 miles an hour > while weaving outside of objects spaced 10 ft apart 3 feet off-center WITHOUT BEING ABLE TO PUT YOUR FEET > DOWN?

Sounds a bit like getting past cars lined up at a stop light during peak hour. Mister_T Melbourne Australia