digest number 1506

[Claes Borovac]

Perhaps that is due to that you are not allowed to mix the two at all? It makes a brake fluid change from polyglycol, which "all" road bikes have, to silicone somewhat cumbersome. I have never tried it myself. Claes, a swede in Dublin. -----Original Message----- From: Ted Palmer [mailto:tedp@...] Sent: 27 June 2001 13:31 To: DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [DSN_klr650] Digest Number 1477 Jim Morehead wrote:

> Marc, > Compressible liquids??? I can't think of any.

Everything is compressible to some extent, more or less. IIRC, one of the concerns that racers had with the then-new silicone brake fluid was that it was _slightly_ more compressible than the polyglycol stuff. I notice that silicone fluid still hasn't taken over from polyglycol. Mister_T Visit the KLR650 archives at http://www.listquest.com/lq/search.html?ln=klr650 Post message: DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com Subscribe: DSN_klr650-subscribe@yahoogroups.com Unsubscribe: DSN_klr650-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com List owner: DSN_klr650-owner@yahoogroups.com Support Dual Sport News by subscribing at: http://www.dualsportnews.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

[Marc Illsley Clarke]

Brake fluid contaminated with water is compressible. Has to do with the brakes' heat boilong the water and making steam in the brake line. Steam compresses. This is called "mushy brakes". -- Marc, KLR650 A12, Loveland, Colorado, USA "Jim & Shannon Morehead" wrote: __________

>Marc, > >Compressible liquids??? I can't think of any. > >Jim >

-- Marc Marc Illsley Clarke mailto:marcclarke@...

[Barry Levine]

So, by this reasoning, is DOT4 or DOT5 easier to deal with in regards to water contamination? Drain the water (assuming it's heavier than DOT5) or drain everyting and start over? If DOT5 is heavier than water, then the water sits in the master cylinder (where you might see it?? Just asking.). If, however, there is water in the system using DOT4 fluid, you'll never know it (because DOT4 absorbs water) so you need to drain all the fluid. Kind of scary when you don't know when/if your brake fluid may vanish in a puff of steam, eh? I'm not trying to piss on this fire but I think that the "compressible liquids" answer of "yes, when there's a gas in it" is really "no, but the system contents are compressible when the dissolved water flashes to steam." So clean out the system often or switch to fluid that won't be contaminated so easily. BTW - That RCS(?) link is interesting but "follow the money". Someone's grinding an ax..... Additionally, a properly working brake system doesn't leak. If it does, then it's not working properly and needs to be repaired. Barry

--- In DSN_klr650@y..., "Marc Illsley Clarke" wrote: > Brake fluid contaminated with water is compressible. Has to do with the brakes' heat boilong the water and making steam in the brake line. Steam compresses. > > This is called "mushy brakes". > > -- Marc, KLR650 A12, Loveland, Colorado, USA > > "Jim & Shannon Morehead" wrote: > __________ > >Marc, > > > >Compressible liquids??? I can't think of any. > > > >Jim > > > > -- Marc > > Marc Illsley Clarke > mailto:marcclarke@u...

[Devon Jarvis]

I respectfully point out that the various parties involved in the brake fluid debate have each already spent more time at the keyboard than is required to flush their brake systems. Speedbleeders, mityvac, whatever, it can be done in about 10min. Devon A15 78 SR500 81 SR500 Barry Levine wrote:

> > So, by this reasoning, is DOT4 or DOT5 easier to deal with in > regards to water contamination? Drain the water (assuming it's > heavier than DOT5) or drain everyting and start over? If DOT5 is > heavier than water, then the water sits in the master cylinder > (where you might see it?? Just asking.). If, however, there is > water in the system using DOT4 fluid, you'll never know it > (because DOT4 absorbs water) so you need to drain all the fluid. > Kind of scary when you don't know when/if your brake fluid may > vanish in a puff of steam, eh? > > I'm not trying to piss on this fire but I think that the "compressible > liquids" answer of "yes, when there's a gas in it" is really "no, but > the system contents are compressible when the dissolved water > flashes to steam." So clean out the system often or switch to > fluid that won't be contaminated so easily. > > BTW - That RCS(?) link is interesting but "follow the money". > Someone's grinding an ax..... > > Additionally, a properly working brake system doesn't leak. If it > does, then it's not working properly and needs to be repaired. > > Barry > > --- In DSN_klr650@y..., "Marc Illsley Clarke" wrote: > > Brake fluid contaminated with water is compressible. Has to do with the brakes' heat boilong the water and making steam in the brake line. Steam compresses. > > > > This is called "mushy brakes". > > > > -- Marc, KLR650 A12, Loveland, Colorado, USA > > > > "Jim & Shannon Morehead" wrote: > > __________ > > >Marc, > > > > > >Compressible liquids??? I can't think of any. > > > > > >Jim > > > > > > > -- Marc > > > > Marc Illsley Clarke > > mailto:marcclarke@u... > > Visit the KLR650 archives at > http://www.listquest.com/lq/search.html?ln=klr650 > > Post message: DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com > Subscribe: DSN_klr650-subscribe@yahoogroups.com > Unsubscribe: DSN_klr650-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > List owner: DSN_klr650-owner@yahoogroups.com > > Support Dual Sport News by subscribing at: > http://www.dualsportnews.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

[debbie@carrabassett.net]

True, But then again their mangers or bosses would probably get upset if they had their KLR in their cubes with the cute office girl bent over the seat, explaing to their co-workers the proper chain adjustment procendure and why their are brake fluid stains on the rugs. John

--- In DSN_klr650@y..., Devon Jarvis wrote: > I respectfully point out that the various parties involved in the brake > fluid debate have each already spent more time at the keyboard than is > required to flush their brake systems. > > Speedbleeders, mityvac, whatever, it can be done in about 10min. > > Devon > A15 > 78 SR500 > 81 SR500 > > Barry Levine wrote: > > > > So, by this reasoning, is DOT4 or DOT5 easier to deal with in > > regards to water contamination? Drain the water (assuming it's > > heavier than DOT5) or drain everyting and start over? If DOT5 is > > heavier than water, then the water sits in the master cylinder > > (where you might see it?? Just asking.). If, however, there is > > water in the system using DOT4 fluid, you'll never know it > > (because DOT4 absorbs water) so you need to drain all the fluid. > > Kind of scary when you don't know when/if your brake fluid may > > vanish in a puff of steam, eh? > > > > I'm not trying to piss on this fire but I think that the "compressible > > liquids" answer of "yes, when there's a gas in it" is really "no, but > > the system contents are compressible when the dissolved water > > flashes to steam." So clean out the system often or switch to > > fluid that won't be contaminated so easily. > > > > BTW - That RCS(?) link is interesting but "follow the money". > > Someone's grinding an ax..... > > > > Additionally, a properly working brake system doesn't leak. If it > > does, then it's not working properly and needs to be repaired. > > > > Barry > > > > --- In DSN_klr650@y..., "Marc Illsley Clarke" wrote: > > > Brake fluid contaminated with water is compressible. Has to do with the brakes' heat boilong the water and making steam in the brake line. Steam compresses. > > > > > > This is called "mushy brakes". > > > > > > -- Marc, KLR650 A12, Loveland, Colorado, USA > > > > > > "Jim & Shannon Morehead" wrote: > > > __________ > > > >Marc, > > > > > > > >Compressible liquids??? I can't think of any. > > > > > > > >Jim > > > > > > > > > > -- Marc > > > > > > Marc Illsley Clarke > > > mailto:marcclarke@u... > > > > Visit the KLR650 archives at > > http://www.listquest.com/lq/search.html?ln=klr650 > > > > Post message: DSN_klr650@y... > > Subscribe: DSN_klr650-subscribe@y... > > Unsubscribe: DSN_klr650-unsubscribe@y... > > List owner: DSN_klr650-owner@y... > > > > Support Dual Sport News by subscribing at: > > http://www.dualsportnews.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

[Barry Levine]

Devon, You are, of course, 100% correct. Maybe it's time I flushed MY system, not just the KLR's. *grin* --------

--- In DSN_klr650@y..., Devon Jarvis wrote: > I respectfully point out that the various parties involved in the brake > fluid debate have each already spent more time at the keyboard than is > required to flush their brake systems. > > Speedbleeders, mityvac, whatever, it can be done in about 10min. > > Devon > A15 > 78 SR500 > 81 SR500 > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

[Jim & Shannon Morehead]

You can make water vapor (steam) if the temp. is high enough and the system pressure is below the vapor pressure. Are you sure this really happens? You might check your steam tables. In my experience, the most common source of "mushy" brakes is air in the system. YMMV Jim

----- Original Message ----- From: "Marc Illsley Clarke" To: "Jim & Shannon Morehead" ; "Jim Jackson" ; DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com>; "Marc Illsley Clarke" Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2001 12:08 PM Subject: Re: [DSN_klr650] Digest Number 1477 > Brake fluid contaminated with water is compressible. Has to do with the brakes' heat boilong the water and making steam in the brake line. Steam compresses. > > This is called "mushy brakes". > > -- Marc, KLR650 A12, Loveland, Colorado, USA > > "Jim & Shannon Morehead" wrote: > __________ > >Marc, > > > >Compressible liquids??? I can't think of any. > > > >Jim > > > > -- Marc > > Marc Illsley Clarke > mailto:marcclarke@... >

[Susan Moorhead]

Jim, Yup, water in a brake system can be turned to steam. The key word is CAN, it is possible, though not at all common. The reason DOT 4 fluid was developed, primarily for ABS systems where in a panic stop situation, the pulse of the brakes being repeatedly applied and released in a very fast fashion tended to boil DOT 3 fluid and cause system failures. DOT 4 with a higher boiling point countered this problem. In over 20 years in auto service, I rarely saw fluid that showed signs of having been cooked. On the other hand, most drivers do not realize (or in some cases care) that the brake fluid should be changed regularly. For many years, Honda (cars) were the only ones that I know of that recommended brake fluid flushing as part of the routine maintenance. Now several manufacturers show this as part of their maintenance schedule. You are correct, the most common cause of soft pedal or mushy brakes is AIR in the system. Just my .02 worth, Marshall & Susan Moorhead

----- Original Message ----- From: Jim & Shannon Morehead To: Jim Jackson ; DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com>; Marc Illsley Clarke Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2001 8:03 PM Subject: Re: [DSN_klr650] Digest Number 1477 > You can make water vapor (steam) if the temp. is high enough and the system > pressure is below the vapor pressure. Are you sure this really happens? > You might check your steam tables. In my experience, the most common source > of "mushy" brakes is air in the system. YMMV > > Jim >

[Marc Illsley Clarke]

Easy solution is to use DOT4 and a Mitivac to suck the contaminated brake fluid out, replacing it with fresh DOT4 fluid. 5 minute job per brake line at least once a year. Water gets into properly installed non-leaking brake lines. Top motocross racers change brake fluid every race to avoid mushy brakes. Contaminated brake fluid yields mushy brake lever feel even before the brakes heat up the brake fluid. -- Marc, KLR650 A12, Loveland, Colorado, USA "Barry Levine" wrote: __________

>So, by this reasoning, is DOT4 or DOT5 easier to deal with in >regards to water contamination? Drain the water (assuming it's >heavier than DOT5) or drain everyting and start over? If DOT5 is >heavier than water, then the water sits in the master cylinder >(where you might see it?? Just asking.). If, however, there is >water in the system using DOT4 fluid, you'll never know it >(because DOT4 absorbs water) so you need to drain all the fluid. >Kind of scary when you don't know when/if your brake fluid may >vanish in a puff of steam, eh? > >I'm not trying to piss on this fire but I think that the "compressible >liquids" answer of "yes, when there's a gas in it" is really "no, but >the system contents are compressible when the dissolved water >flashes to steam." So clean out the system often or switch to >fluid that won't be contaminated so easily. > >BTW - That RCS(?) link is interesting but "follow the money". >Someone's grinding an ax..... > >Additionally, a properly working brake system doesn't leak. If it >does, then it's not working properly and needs to be repaired. > >Barry > > > > > > >--- In DSN_klr650@y..., "Marc Illsley Clarke" wrote: >> Brake fluid contaminated with water is compressible. Has to do with the brakes' heat boilong the water and making steam in the brake line. Steam compresses. >> >> This is called "mushy brakes". >> >> -- Marc, KLR650 A12, Loveland, Colorado, USA >> >> "Jim & Shannon Morehead" wrote: >> __________ >> >Marc, >> > >> >Compressible liquids??? I can't think of any. >> > >> >Jim >> > >> >> -- Marc >> >> Marc Illsley Clarke >> mailto:marcclarke@u... >

-- Marc Marc Illsley Clarke mailto:marcclarke@...

[Marc Illsley Clarke]

I heartily agree. I love my Mitivac. No Jennifer cracks, please. -- Marc, KLR650 A12, Loveland, Colorado, USA Devon Jarvis wrote: __________

>I respectfully point out that the various parties involved in the brake >fluid debate have each already spent more time at the keyboard than is >required to flush their brake systems. > >Speedbleeders, mityvac, whatever, it can be done in about 10min. > >Devon >A15 >78 SR500 >81 SR500 >

-- Marc Marc Illsley Clarke mailto:marcclarke@...