Re: [mg-tabc] Moss Rear Seal - My Story

[Viv James TraX Interconnect (Pty.) Ltd]

After reading the latest rear seal thread I have copied my e mail
correspondence with Al Moss. this took place last week. Hopefully
it will be useful.

I wrote:-

".............About 1 year ago I fitted one of your seal kits to my TC.
This was the new version which I got from Moss California. I also
fitted the Speedi-sleeve. I followed your instructions with great care
and made sure that there was concentricity and that the seal was in
proper contact with the Speedi-sleeve.

For the first couple of hundred miles there was a normal XPAG
drip. I then went on a 250 mile rally and the drip disappeared
completely. After this it returned and has got steadily worse. Now,
maybe 1500 miles later it is really bad and I am getting comments
every time I stop the car!

There has been a lot of discussion on the internet about this kit
and there seems to be some consensus that the surface speed is
to great because of the large diameter. Some people suggest that
a "Viton" seal be used. Others say this won't help.

I can't remember what type of seal was supplied with the kit but
perhaps you can offer me some advice before I strip the motor for
the third time.

My options are :

1. Replace the original seal and pray - not a good one?

2. If the original seal was not viton, install viton seal if
available.

3. Put it back the way it was when it left the factory!

If you recommend 2. can you tell me the part number and supplier
of this item?

Can you help?..................."

Al Moss replied the next day as follows:-

"...............Sorry to hear you are experiencing trouble with the Seal
Kit. If you will e mail me your address I will mail you an updated
instruction sheet (revised 9/99). Yes, I am well aware that we are
running the seal at a higher than recommended surace speed, as
well as a higher temperature. However, this has not been a
problem. I know of quite a few cars, including my own TC, which
have completely successful installations and have been or are
being raced at very high RPMs and very high temperatures. There
IS NO Viton seal available in the required size. CR (Chicago
Rawhide) lists such a seal and will only make a huge run to special
order. They do list an intermediate seal rated at higher RPM &
temp and it WILL NOT WORK!!! It is designed for something like
mineral oil and fails immediately in a car engine. I am sure if you
read very carefully and follow each and every instruction, you will
have a successful installation....................."

Like Neil's friend, I know that it was properly installed and this is
borne out by the fact that it worked well for a while. I am sure that
the high temperature wrecked the seal as has been suggested.
Now it has sort of settled in at the embarrassment level.

On my new cream TC I mave just completed the motor and I have
used the Chevy seal as per this list.

The problem is what to do with my black car without having to do a
full strip down to put in a Chev seal.

This week a talked to Chris Champion, a local TD owner who made
his own Moss type modification. He found out that Toyata use a
similar system and it works fine. He has used the Toyota seal in
his car which is driven lots and hard without any problems. Their
seal has an ID the same as the XPAG flywheel flange plus speedi-
sleeve. The OD is 115 mm against the Moss seal's 120 mm. I don't
know what material has been used but it feels much softer than the
Moss seal and it has a sort of angled rough surface on the inside
which probably acts as an extra oil thrower. The seal itself is a bit
wider but Chris machined it to fit without difficulty.

My latest plan for the black car is to machine a sleeve and then to
put a thinned down Toyota seal (HTC95) into the Moss housing and
then hope for the best.

In the meantime, with club events of considerable distance planned
for the next 2 weekends, I will just hold thumbs. The good news is
that chassis and underbody corrosion aft of the bell housing will be
substantially reduced.

[mrbadger]

And this self-righteous, conceited, two bit numbskull is preaching at me
about originality because my TC has red brake drums and
extra holes in the scuttle while he is re-machining his engine to accept
CHEVROLET parts! This goes far beyond a case of the pot calling the
kettle black, clearly, the pot is far blacker than the kettle ever
thought of being!
Derek Durst

"Viv James TraX Interconnect (Pty.) Ltd" wrote:

>
> After reading the latest rear seal thread I have copied my e mail
> correspondence with Al Moss. this took place last week. Hopefully
> it will be useful.
>
> I wrote:-
>
> ".............About 1 year ago I fitted one of your seal kits to my TC.
> This was the new version which I got from Moss California. I also
> fitted the Speedi-sleeve. I followed your instructions with great care
> and made sure that there was concentricity and that the seal was in
> proper contact with the Speedi-sleeve.
>
> For the first couple of hundred miles there was a normal XPAG
> drip. I then went on a 250 mile rally and the drip disappeared
> completely. After this it returned and has got steadily worse. Now,
> maybe 1500 miles later it is really bad and I am getting comments
> every time I stop the car!
>
> There has been a lot of discussion on the internet about this kit
> and there seems to be some consensus that the surface speed is
> to great because of the large diameter. Some people suggest that
> a "Viton" seal be used. Others say this won't help.
>
> I can't remember what type of seal was supplied with the kit but
> perhaps you can offer me some advice before I strip the motor for
> the third time.
>
> My options are :
>
> 1. Replace the original seal and pray - not a good one?
>
> 2. If the original seal was not viton, install viton seal if
> available.
>
> 3. Put it back the way it was when it left the factory!
>
> If you recommend 2. can you tell me the part number and supplier
> of this item?
>
> Can you help?..................."
>
> Al Moss replied the next day as follows:-
>
> "...............Sorry to hear you are experiencing trouble with the Seal
> Kit. If you will e mail me your address I will mail you an updated
> instruction sheet (revised 9/99). Yes, I am well aware that we are
> running the seal at a higher than recommended surace speed, as
> well as a higher temperature. However, this has not been a
> problem. I know of quite a few cars, including my own TC, which
> have completely successful installations and have been or are
> being raced at very high RPMs and very high temperatures. There
> IS NO Viton seal available in the required size. CR (Chicago
> Rawhide) lists such a seal and will only make a huge run to special
> order. They do list an intermediate seal rated at higher RPM &
> temp and it WILL NOT WORK!!! It is designed for something like
> mineral oil and fails immediately in a car engine. I am sure if you
> read very carefully and follow each and every instruction, you will
> have a successful installation....................."
>
> Like Neil's friend, I know that it was properly installed and this is
> borne out by the fact that it worked well for a while. I am sure that
> the high temperature wrecked the seal as has been suggested.
> Now it has sort of settled in at the embarrassment level.
>
> On my new cream TC I mave just completed the motor and I have
> used the Chevy seal as per this list.
>
> The problem is what to do with my black car without having to do a
> full strip down to put in a Chev seal.
>
> This week a talked to Chris Champion, a local TD owner who made
> his own Moss type modification. He found out that Toyata use a
> similar system and it works fine. He has used the Toyota seal in
> his car which is driven lots and hard without any problems. Their
> seal has an ID the same as the XPAG flywheel flange plus speedi-
> sleeve. The OD is 115 mm against the Moss seal's 120 mm. I don't
> know what material has been used but it feels much softer than the
> Moss seal and it has a sort of angled rough surface on the inside
> which probably acts as an extra oil thrower. The seal itself is a bit
> wider but Chris machined it to fit without difficulty.
>
> My latest plan for the black car is to machine a sleeve and then to
> put a thinned down Toyota seal (HTC95) into the Moss housing and
> then hope for the best.
>
> In the meantime, with club events of considerable distance planned
> for the next 2 weekends, I will just hold thumbs. The good news is
> that chassis and underbody corrosion aft of the bell housing will be
> substantially reduced.

[Frank O_ The Mountain]

In a message dated 5/10/00 2:43:18 AM Pacific Daylight Time, vivj@iafrica.com
writes:

>

Bill Bollendonk, formerly of this list, did extensive lab type testing on the
Moss seal with Al Moss' cooperation. The bottom line is that the seal must
get oil to it to be successful. apparently some folks lucked out and it
happened for some reason. I believe that Al's most recent installation
instructions tell how to do this but I have no direct experience. Andy
Bradley's Chevy seal is still the most bullet proof way to make a positive
seal. We did a similar seal on my Triumph Mayflower and it does not leak
even a drop. One makes one's choice!!
Terry in Oakland, CA

[mrbadger]

I LIKE the idea Ray, in fact, I'd very much like to see that when you
get it done.
It reminded me of an old Road and Track article and I had to go through
my old R&Ts to find it. The November 1951 issue contains an article
which describes the very neat installation of a 4c Bugatti engine into
an MG TC.
Now, there is also a well known G.P. Bugatti fitted (many moons ago)
with a much modified Model A Ford engine that regularly runs in
V.S.C.C.A. events.
To complete the triangle, someplace there would have to be a Model A
Ford with an MG TC engine and I would really like to see that.

Ray McCrary wrote:

>
> So, Guys,
> All this talk of originality got me considering things.......
> I was thinking of throwing that punk little XPAG unit that the TB came with
> into the garbage can, and stuffing in a blown 426 Dodge Hemi. With fat 16
> inch tires on mag wheels.....and maybe one of those chrome chain steering
> wheels.......I may come up with more...

[Frank O_ The Mountain]

In a message dated 5/10/00 3:59:09 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
mrbadger@home.com writes:


> So, Guys,
> All this talk of originality got me considering things.......
> I was thinking of throwing that punk little XPAG unit that the TB came with
> into the garbage can, and stuffing in a blown 426 Dodge Hemi. With fat 16
> inch tires on mag wheels.....and maybe one of those chrome chain steering
> wheels.......I may come up with more...
>>
[/quote]I know Ray meant this as a joke but the boys in Oz have done it on at least
one TC that I've seen.....and its one mean machine!!
Terry n Oakland

[PMS GB Ltd]

Message text written by INTERNET:TATERRY@aol.com

> > I was thinking of throwing that punk little XPAG unit that the TB came

with

> into the garbage can, and stuffing in a blown 426 Dodge Hemi. With fat

16

> inch tires on mag wheels.....and maybe one of those chrome chain

steering

> wheels.......I may come up with more...
>>
>>I know Ray meant this as a joke but the boys in Oz have done it on at

least

>>one TC that I've seen.....and its one mean machine!!<

Terry -

Did it properly with an Automatic box and a column gear shift I trust?

Clive

Oxford UK.

[Harry Pyle]

Sorry Terry, you forgot to mention the 100% succesfull Aussie conversion by
Bill Schapel which I believe was the first one anywhere in the world.

Regards Harry

----- Original Message -----
From:
To: ;
Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 10:27 PM
Subject: Re: [mg-tabc] Moss Rear Seal - My Story


> In a message dated 5/10/00 2:43:18 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
vivj@iafrica.com
> writes:
>
> correspondence with Al Moss. this took place last week. Hopefully
> it will be useful. >>
>
> Bill Bollendonk, formerly of this list, did extensive lab type testing on
the
> Moss seal with Al Moss' cooperation. The bottom line is that the seal
must
> get oil to it to be successful. apparently some folks lucked out and it
> happened for some reason. I believe that Al's most recent installation
> instructions tell how to do this but I have no direct experience. Andy
> Bradley's Chevy seal is still the most bullet proof way to make a positive
> seal. We did a similar seal on my Triumph Mayflower and it does not leak
> even a drop. One makes one's choice!!
> Terry in Oakland, CA
>
>
>