Castrol Enquiry

[mgtc7794]

Dear Castrol, lubes marketing, TITLE : Mr. FIRST NAME : Robert LAST NAME : Brennan EMAIL ADDRESS : mgtc7794@gmail.com CATEGORY : Product query QUESTION : I own a 1949 MG TC that has used Castrol 20w50 for the last 25 years. Is this the oil you would recommend or am I better off switching to another Castrol product. I intend forwarding your advice to the MG T-ABC users group. Thanks HERE IS THE REPLY I RECEIVED FROM John Gamston, Automotive Technical at Castrol UK: Robert, as always, there is not a straight definitive answer I can give you. Deep breath... We have until recently had two 20W-50 car engine oils. One was called Castrol Merit, a modern formulation, one was called Classic XL 20W-50, a classic style oil with very low detergent. If you have been a classic oil like the XL 20W-50 (or one of the classic monogrades like XL30 or XXL 40) then it is best to stick with that oil, changing it regularly, until you re-build the engine. Whilst a modern oil will provide better protection in all aspects, I do not suggest that you change to a modern oil if it has run for an appreciable length of time (say 10 years or more) on a classic oil. The reason for this is that with low levels of detergent / dispersant, any sludge and products of combustion that find their way into the oil gets deposited mainly in the sump and any other 'dead' areas of oil flow. If you change to a modern oil without taking the engine apart to clean the components, the detergent system in the modern oil (which works by holding sludge and products of combustion in suspension, so that they are removed with the oil when it's drained) will be overloaded. This will result in the oil dragging large lumps of contaminant around the engine, causing possible blocking of oilways. It may also dislodge sludge that has formed seals in the engine where rubber etc. may have perished, and you may find that the engine starts to 'seep'. The above is also true of a flushing oil, which I do not recommend you use to 'clean' the inside of your engine. If the engine has recently been re-built, or it has been running on an oil with 'modern' levels of detergent, then you should use this modern oil. Unfortunately, there is nothing now in the Castrol range in a 20W-50 grade with a modern level of detergent now that Merit has been discontinued. The closest thing we do will be a 15W-40 oil. This *may* be ok to use - you will see a lower oil pressure as the oil is thinner, but with a lower pressure you get a higher throughput of oil, so the protection is effectively the same, if not better. However, engines (and importantly oil pumps) built to loose tolerances may find that the 15W-40 is just a little too thin. Without firsthand experience of how the MG-Tx engines run on the thinner oil, I wouldn't like to say that they would definitely be suitable, although my gut feeling is to say that for a re-built or reconditioned engine the 15W-40 oil would be suitable. (As a further aside here, if the 15W-40 mineral oil (now called GTX High Mileage) is considered suitable, then GTX Magnatec 15W-40, a semi-synthetic oil will be suitable too and provide even better protection. Synthetics used to have problems with regard to seal compatibility, but now they are absolutely safe to use and offer better protection in all areas of operation compared with mineral oils. They are also compatible with other mineral oils, and so you can fill with a synthetic after a mineral, and can top up a synthetic using a mineral oil. For high performance engines with 'modern' tolerances in pistons / valves etc used for fast road or racing, a fully synthetic oil would be perfectly suitable here. We offer a product called Formula RS 10W-60, a fully synthetic racing oil that is also suitable for the road. This offers advantages over semi-synthetic and mineral oils in terms of reducing engine wear, promoting engine cleanliness, stability at high temperatures and over time, and low temperature flow. If an engine is recently re-built / re-conditioned, we do not recommend synthetic oils over the first 500 - 1000 miles, engines do not run in well on synthetic oils). If a modern 20W-50 is called for, the group that owns Castrol also now owns Duckhams, and Duckhams Q 20W-50 is a mineral oil of modern additive levels. I hope the above helps. In essence, my advice is as follows: - A modern oil is best, but only use it with re-built / re-conditioned engines or if modern oils have been used previously - otherwise it is better to stay with a classic-type oil - Synthetics are great in re-built / re-conditioned engines after the run-in period. - 20W-50 is probably preferable, but 15W-40 may also be suitable, especially in re-built / re-conditioned engines. Kind Regards John Gamston Automotive Technical PS for reference, Castrol GTX 15W-50 is considered an oil with 'modern' detergent levels.

[Chip Old]

That's good advice about the problems associated with switching from a non-detergent or low-detergent oil to a high-detergent oil. However the Castrol oils he described are those sold in the UK and possibly elsewhere in the world. The Castrol GTX 10W-40 and 20W-50 sold in the US are entirely different animals. They are and always has been high-detergent oils. In the real world the problems he described are unlikely to occur unless you are putting back on the road (without rebuilding) an engine that was last run 40 or more years ago when non-detergent oil was still common, or unless you're one of those people who has been going out of his way to find and use non-detergent or low-detergent oil. High-detergent oil has been mainstream for so long now, it just isn't an issue for most owners. On Wed, 16 Feb 2005 23:21 -0000, mgtc7794 wrote to mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com:

> Dear Castrol, lubes marketing, > TITLE : Mr. > FIRST NAME : Robert > LAST NAME : Brennan > EMAIL ADDRESS : mgtc7794@gmail.com > CATEGORY : Product query > QUESTION : I own a 1949 MG TC that has used Castrol 20w50 for the last > 25 years. Is this the oil you would recommend or am I better off > switching to another Castrol product. I intend forwarding your advice to > the MG T-ABC users group. Thanks > > > HERE IS THE REPLY I RECEIVED FROM John Gamston, Automotive Technical at Castrol UK: > > > Robert, as always, there is not a straight definitive answer I can give > you. Deep breath... > > We have until recently had two 20W-50 car engine oils. One was called > Castrol Merit, a modern formulation, one was called Classic XL 20W-50, a > classic style oil with very low detergent. > > If you have been a classic oil like the XL 20W-50 (or one of the classic > monogrades like XL30 or XXL 40) then it is best to stick with that oil, > changing it regularly, until you re-build the engine. Whilst a modern > oil will provide better protection in all aspects, I do not suggest that > you change to a modern oil if it has run for an appreciable length of > time (say 10 years or more) on a classic oil. > > The reason for this is that with low levels of detergent / dispersant, > any sludge and products of combustion that find their way into the oil > gets deposited mainly in the sump and any other 'dead' areas of oil > flow. If you change to a modern oil without taking the engine apart to > clean the components, the detergent system in the modern oil (which > works by holding sludge and products of combustion in suspension, so > that they are removed with the oil when it's drained) will be > overloaded. This will result in the oil dragging large lumps of > contaminant around the engine, causing possible blocking of oilways. It > may also dislodge sludge that has formed seals in the engine where > rubber etc. may have perished, and you may find that the engine starts > to 'seep'. The above is also true of a flushing oil, which I do not > recommend you use to 'clean' the inside of your engine. > > If the engine has recently been re-built, or it has been running on an > oil with 'modern' levels of detergent, then you should use this modern > oil. Unfortunately, there is nothing now in the Castrol range in a > 20W-50 grade with a modern level of detergent now that Merit has been > discontinued. The closest thing we do will be a 15W-40 oil. This *may* > be ok to use - you will see a lower oil pressure as the oil is thinner, > but with a lower pressure you get a higher throughput of oil, so the > protection is effectively the same, if not better. However, engines (and > importantly oil pumps) built to loose tolerances may find that the > 15W-40 is just a little too thin. Without firsthand experience of how > the MG-Tx engines run on the thinner oil, I wouldn't like to say that > they would definitely be suitable, although my gut feeling is to say > that for a re-built or reconditioned engine the 15W-40 oil would be > suitable. > > (As a further aside here, if the 15W-40 mineral oil (now called GTX High > Mileage) is considered suitable, then GTX Magnatec 15W-40, a > semi-synthetic oil will be suitable too and provide even better > protection. Synthetics used to have problems with regard to seal > compatibility, but now they are absolutely safe to use and offer better > protection in all areas of operation compared with mineral oils. They > are also compatible with other mineral oils, and so you can fill with a > synthetic after a mineral, and can top up a synthetic using a mineral > oil. For high performance engines with 'modern' tolerances in pistons / > valves etc used for fast road or racing, a fully synthetic oil would be > perfectly suitable here. We offer a product called Formula RS 10W-60, a > fully synthetic racing oil that is also suitable for the road. This > offers advantages over semi-synthetic and mineral oils in terms of > reducing engine wear, promoting engine cleanliness, stability at high > temperatures and over time, and low temperature flow. If an engine is > recently re-built / re-conditioned, we do not recommend synthetic oils > over the first 500 - 1000 miles, engines do not run in well on synthetic > oils). > > If a modern 20W-50 is called for, the group that owns Castrol also now > owns Duckhams, and Duckhams Q 20W-50 is a mineral oil of modern additive > levels. > > I hope the above helps. In essence, my advice is as follows: > - A modern oil is best, but only use it with re-built / re-conditioned > engines or if modern oils have been used previously - otherwise it is > better to stay with a classic-type oil > - Synthetics are great in re-built / re-conditioned engines after the > run-in period. > - 20W-50 is probably preferable, but 15W-40 may also be suitable, > especially in re-built / re-conditioned engines. > > Kind Regards > John Gamston > Automotive Technical > > PS for reference, Castrol GTX 15W-50 is considered an oil with 'modern' > detergent levels.

-- Chip Old 1948 M.G. TC TC6710 XPAG7430 NEMGTR #2271 Cub Hill, Maryland fold@bcpl.net [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Charles Hill]

Chip has a good point here. From what I've seen on other lists, Castrol lubricants vary considerably from continent to continent. I first became aware of the situation on the Morgan list where owners of recent +8s were discussing the availability of the recommended rear axle lubricant. The rear axle in late model +8s is made in Australia. The recommended lubricant is a Castrol product available only in Australia. Evidently the only cars outside of Australia using this rear axle are Morgans and the Pontiac GTO (rebadged Australian Holden Monaro). Not to knock Castrol as the same situation seems to apply with most other major lubricant companies. Moral: Look close at the label when you buy any oil or grease away from your home territory. Regards, Charles Hill Chip Old wrote:

>That's good advice about the problems associated with switching from a >non-detergent or low-detergent oil to a high-detergent oil. However the >Castrol oils he described are those sold in the UK and possibly elsewhere >in the world. The Castrol GTX 10W-40 and 20W-50 sold in the US are >entirely different animals. They are and always has been high-detergent >oils. > >In the real world the problems he described are unlikely to occur unless >you are putting back on the road (without rebuilding) an engine that was >last run 40 or more years ago when non-detergent oil was still common, or >unless you're one of those people who has been going out of his way to >find and use non-detergent or low-detergent oil. High-detergent oil has >been mainstream for so long now, it just isn't an issue for most owners. > > >

[joecurto@aol.com]

Chip I agree with you 100% BUT do not ASSUME anything. We had a local British car mechanic (who recently passed away) who had all his customers cars serviced with 30 weight NON-Detergent oil. We inherited some of his customers who religiously serviced there cars with him, well need I say that in 30 years of my automotive experience I never saw so much sludge in an MGB engine, they looked like those old Chevy motors that never had an oil change in 80,000 miles. I also had some old American car experience and that anti high detergent oil had its roots in the 1950s when US cars did not have oil filters installed from the factory, 1949 Pontiac , 1954 chevy and I think some Fords only had as an accessory a thing called a by-pass filter, so imagine everyone's surprise when oil companies touted High Detergent oil and some guy with a well maintained Chevy of the period decided to be progressive and install High detergent oil, I am sure it was like you know what through the proverbial goose. Castrol sells in the New York area a thing called High Mileage oil, I have used it in the shop one most of the questionable cars and it works well One last word to the drivers of modern cars I have been seeing an awful lot of straight 30 weight detergent oil here in New York at these chain gas stations, and it would seem odd that new autos running around on 5-30 weight these chains are stocking straight weight, so if you have the attendant service your oil at the pump make sure that they use a multi weight. Joe Curto [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Chip Old]

Yes, if the car has been serviced by someone other than the owner, and if the owner doesn't know what oil has been used, then all bets are off. The old guy was actually servicing customer cars with single-viscosity non-detergent oil? Was he nuts, or just stuck in the 1950s?

On Thu, 17 Feb 2005 09:31 -0500, JoeCurto@aol.com wrote: > Chip I agree with you 100% BUT do not ASSUME anything. We had a > local British car mechanic (who recently passed away) who had all his > customers cars serviced with 30 weight NON-Detergent oil. We inherited > some of his customers who religiously serviced there cars with him, well > need I say that in 30 years of my automotive experience I never saw so > much sludge in an MGB engine, they looked like those old Chevy motors > that never had an oil change in 80,000 miles. > > I also had some old American car experience and that anti high > detergent oil had its roots in the 1950s when US cars did not have oil > filters installed from the factory, 1949 Pontiac , 1954 chevy and I > think some Fords only had as an accessory a thing called a by-pass > filter, so imagine everyone's surprise when oil companies touted High > Detergent oil and some guy with a well maintained Chevy of the period > decided to be progressive and install High detergent oil, I am sure it > was like you know what through the proverbial goose. > > Castrol sells in the New York area a thing called High Mileage oil, I > have used it in the shop one most of the questionable cars and it works > well > > One last word to the drivers of modern cars I have been seeing an > awful lot of straight 30 weight detergent oil here in New York at these > chain gas stations, and it would seem odd that new autos running around > on 5-30 weight these chains are stocking straight weight, so if you have > the attendant service your oil at the pump make sure that they use a > multi weight. > > Joe Curto > -- Chip Old (Francis E. Old) E-Mail: fold@bcpl.net BCPL Network Administrator Phone: 410-887-6180 BCPL.NET Internet Services Manager FAX: 410-887-2091 Baltimore County Public Library 320 York Road Towson, MD 21204-5179 USA

[fnitz]

I worked as a mechanic from 1955-1960 and saw firsthand the dramatic differences between detergent oils and non-detergent oils with regard to sludge buildup. Maybe the old guy was creating business for himself as surely he was privy to the same information. Fred TC1353 -----Original Message----- From: Chip Old [mailto:fold@bcpl.net] Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 6:43 AM To: MG-TABC Subject: Re: [mg-tabc] Castrol Enquiry Yes, if the car has been serviced by someone other than the owner, and if the owner doesn't know what oil has been used, then all bets are off. The old guy was actually servicing customer cars with single-viscosity non-detergent oil? Was he nuts, or just stuck in the 1950s?

On Thu, 17 Feb 2005 09:31 -0500, JoeCurto@aol.com wrote: > Chip I agree with you 100% BUT do not ASSUME anything. We had a > local British car mechanic (who recently passed away) who had all his > customers cars serviced with 30 weight NON-Detergent oil. We inherited > some of his customers who religiously serviced there cars with him, well > need I say that in 30 years of my automotive experience I never saw so > much sludge in an MGB engine, they looked like those old Chevy motors > that never had an oil change in 80,000 miles. > > I also had some old American car experience and that anti high > detergent oil had its roots in the 1950s when US cars did not have oil > filters installed from the factory, 1949 Pontiac , 1954 chevy and I > think some Fords only had as an accessory a thing called a by-pass > filter, so imagine everyone's surprise when oil companies touted High > Detergent oil and some guy with a well maintained Chevy of the period > decided to be progressive and install High detergent oil, I am sure it > was like you know what through the proverbial goose. > > Castrol sells in the New York area a thing called High Mileage oil, I > have used it in the shop one most of the questionable cars and it works > well > > One last word to the drivers of modern cars I have been seeing an > awful lot of straight 30 weight detergent oil here in New York at these > chain gas stations, and it would seem odd that new autos running around > on 5-30 weight these chains are stocking straight weight, so if you have > the attendant service your oil at the pump make sure that they use a > multi weight. > > Joe Curto > -- Chip Old (Francis E. Old) E-Mail: fold@bcpl.net BCPL Network Administrator Phone: 410-887-6180 BCPL.NET Internet Services Manager FAX: 410-887-2091 Baltimore County Public Library 320 York Road Towson, MD 21204-5179 USA Yahoo! Groups Links

[kwcp]

All: The Castrol Oil we get here in the States is manufactured under license from Castrol. What is being licensed ?? The name?? The formula?? Do we really know what we are getting ?? I have been using Castrol 20/50 without problem for many years. But is it really Castrol? Ken Porter TC 4147 Manchester NH

[Dave Abramson]

Hello T-ABC'ers!!! I have a 48" TC that sat long enough to have ALL the brake fluid dry up...(or leak out) I filled the engine with Castrol 20/50 and ran the car about 100 miles.... Then changed to Mobile 1 Syn. (5-50) I was careful to change to oil filter and oil every 500 miles...... (to get out all the junk.......) 3000 miles now, and she is running great! Have "Red Line" products in the Gearbox and Diff...... only the best!!!!!! I have had success so far.... but, I am not saying for others to do it this way..... Dave 48',58',63' MG's....... I worked as a mechanic from 1955-1960 and saw firsthand the dramatic differences between detergent oils and non-detergent oils with regard to sludge buildup. Maybe the old guy was creating business for himself as surely he was privy to the same information. Fred TC1353 -----Original Message----- From: Chip Old [mailto:fold@bcpl.net] Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 6:43 AM To: MG-TABC Subject: Re: [mg-tabc] Castrol Enquiry Yes, if the car has been serviced by someone other than the owner, and if the owner doesn't know what oil has been used, then all bets are off. The old guy was actually servicing customer cars with single-viscosity non-detergent oil? Was he nuts, or just stuck in the 1950s?

On Thu, 17 Feb 2005 09:31 -0500, JoeCurto@aol.com wrote: > Chip I agree with you 100% BUT do not ASSUME anything. We had a > local British car mechanic (who recently passed away) who had all his > customers cars serviced with 30 weight NON-Detergent oil. We inherited > some of his customers who religiously serviced there cars with him, well > need I say that in 30 years of my automotive experience I never saw so > much sludge in an MGB engine, they looked like those old Chevy motors > that never had an oil change in 80,000 miles. > > I also had some old American car experience and that anti high > detergent oil had its roots in the 1950s when US cars did not have oil > filters installed from the factory, 1949 Pontiac , 1954 chevy and I > think some Fords only had as an accessory a thing called a by-pass > filter, so imagine everyone's surprise when oil companies touted High > Detergent oil and some guy with a well maintained Chevy of the period > decided to be progressive and install High detergent oil, I am sure it > was like you know what through the proverbial goose. > > Castrol sells in the New York area a thing called High Mileage oil, I > have used it in the shop one most of the questionable cars and it works > well > > One last word to the drivers of modern cars I have been seeing an > awful lot of straight 30 weight detergent oil here in New York at these > chain gas stations, and it would seem odd that new autos running around > on 5-30 weight these chains are stocking straight weight, so if you have > the attendant service your oil at the pump make sure that they use a > multi weight. > > Joe Curto > -- Chip Old (Francis E. Old) E-Mail: fold@bcpl.net BCPL Network Administrator Phone: 410-887-6180 BCPL.NET Internet Services Manager FAX: 410-887-2091 Baltimore County Public Library 320 York Road Towson, MD 21204-5179 USA Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links

[1939mgtb]

I had a Sunbeam Tiger engine that was a non-detergent engine. When we pulled the valve covers, there was a smooth black surface beneath, with no valve springs visible.......only the tops of the valves showed above the sludge. The drain holes were the size of a pencil or less...... Does someone have the new RC MG-TC? The 48 incher? Best, Ray "My brain hurts!" "It will have to come out."

----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Abramson" davea@symbolicdisplays.com> To: mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 10:35 AM Subject: [mg-tabc] Castrol Enquiry > > Hello T-ABC'ers!!! > > I have a 48" TC that sat long enough to have ALL the brake fluid dry > up...(or leak out) I filled the engine with Castrol 20/50 and ran the car > about 100 miles.... Then changed to Mobile 1 Syn. (5-50) I was careful > to > change to oil filter and oil every 500 miles...... (to get out all the > junk.......) 3000 miles now, and she is running great! Have "Red Line" > products > in the Gearbox and Diff...... only the best!!!!!! I have had success so > far.... but, I am not saying for others to do it this way..... > > > Dave > > 48',58',63' MG's....... > > > > > I worked as a mechanic from 1955-1960 and saw firsthand the dramatic > differences between detergent oils and non-detergent oils with regard to > sludge buildup. Maybe the old guy was creating business for himself as > surely he was privy to the same information. > Fred TC1353 > > -----Original Message----- > From: Chip Old [mailto:fold@bcpl.net] > Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 6:43 AM > To: MG-TABC > Subject: Re: [mg-tabc] Castrol Enquiry > > > Yes, if the car has been serviced by someone other than the owner, and if > the owner doesn't know what oil has been used, then all bets are off. > > The old guy was actually servicing customer cars with single-viscosity > non-detergent oil? Was he nuts, or just stuck in the 1950s? > > On Thu, 17 Feb 2005 09:31 -0500, JoeCurto@aol.com wrote: > >> Chip I agree with you 100% BUT do not ASSUME anything. We had a >> local British car mechanic (who recently passed away) who had all his >> customers cars serviced with 30 weight NON-Detergent oil. We inherited >> some of his customers who religiously serviced there cars with him, well >> need I say that in 30 years of my automotive experience I never saw so >> much sludge in an MGB engine, they looked like those old Chevy motors >> that never had an oil change in 80,000 miles. >> >> I also had some old American car experience and that anti high >> detergent oil had its roots in the 1950s when US cars did not have oil >> filters installed from the factory, 1949 Pontiac , 1954 chevy and I >> think some Fords only had as an accessory a thing called a by-pass >> filter, so imagine everyone's surprise when oil companies touted High >> Detergent oil and some guy with a well maintained Chevy of the period >> decided to be progressive and install High detergent oil, I am sure it >> was like you know what through the proverbial goose. >> >> Castrol sells in the New York area a thing called High Mileage oil, I >> have used it in the shop one most of the questionable cars and it works >> well >> >> One last word to the drivers of modern cars I have been seeing an >> awful lot of straight 30 weight detergent oil here in New York at these >> chain gas stations, and it would seem odd that new autos running around >> on 5-30 weight these chains are stocking straight weight, so if you have >> the attendant service your oil at the pump make sure that they use a >> multi weight. >> >> Joe Curto >> > > -- > Chip Old (Francis E. Old) E-Mail: fold@bcpl.net > BCPL Network Administrator Phone: 410-887-6180 > BCPL.NET Internet Services Manager FAX: 410-887-2091 > Baltimore County Public Library > 320 York Road > Towson, MD 21204-5179 USA > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > >

[Chip Old]

On Thu, 17 Feb 2005 07:58 -0800, fnitz wrote:

> I worked as a mechanic from 1955-1960 and saw firsthand the dramatic > differences between detergent oils and non-detergent oils with regard to > sludge buildup. Maybe the old guy was creating business for himself as > surely he was privy to the same information.

Maybe. Or maybe the old guy was just one of those people who believes the "This is the oil it was designed to run on" argument. I still hear that every now and then from people who are otherwise quite sensible. -- Chip Old 1948 M.G. TC TC6710 XPAG7430 NEMGTR #2271 Cub Hill, Maryland fold@bcpl.net