Broken Spoke - Stuck Wheel

[rogerbateman@rocketmail.com]

Gentlemen something to test your little grey cells!   My 1937 Riley has Rudge-Whitworth centre lock wire wheels which are identical in design to my MG TC. Having discovered a broken spoke (outer-laced), I attempted to remove the wheel but found it wouldn t come off.  Further investigation revealed that the inner end of the broken spoke, about 10mm long and complete with its flared end, was trapped between the wheel nut threads and the wheel, thus preventing the splines from clearing the threads to allow the wheel to come off the hub.  The offending article is too large to extract between the wheel and the threads, so I am at a loss to know what to do. The only way I can think of is to drill out the hole in the hub for the broken spoke to about 10mm and extract the broken piece through that. The wheel needs rebuilding anyway, so no doubt the hole could be welded up and re-drilled back to the correct size. Has anyone else had this problem?  Suggestions gratefully received before I get drilling!   Many thanks, Roger [b][/b][i][/i][u][/u]

[Bill Hyatt]

Roger,Try investigating for a shop that can EMD  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_discharge_machining the offending piece into zero mass.  -Bill HyattSent from my iPhone

On Feb 20, 2019, at 10:31 AM, rogerbateman@rocketmail.com [mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

  Gentlemen something to test your little grey cells!   My 1937 Riley has Rudge-Whitworth centre lock wire wheels which are identical in design to my MG TC. Having discovered a broken spoke (outer-laced), I attempted to remove the wheel but found it wouldn t come off.  Further investigation revealed that the inner end of the broken spoke, about 10mm long and complete with its flared end, was trapped between the wheel nut threads and the wheel, thus preventing the splines from clearing the threads to allow the wheel to come off the hub.  The offending article is too large to extract between the wheel and the threads, so I am at a loss to know what to do. The only way I can think of is to drill out the hole in the hub for the broken spoke to about 10mm and extract the broken piece through that. The wheel needs rebuilding anyway, so no doubt the hole could be welded up and re-drilled back to the correct size. Has anyone else had this problem?  Suggestions gratefully received before I get drilling!   Many thanks, Roger [b][/b][i][/i][u][/u]

[phil smith]

What would be cool if the mass could be converted to time (c) rather than energy (E) - thereby recouping the time lost taking the wheel/hub to the EMD shop.  ----pps

On Wednesday, February 20, 2019, 10:55:52 AM EST, Bill Hyatt usaj24@earthlink.net [mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

  Roger,Try investigating for a shop that can EMD  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_discharge_machining the offending piece into zero mass.  -Bill HyattSent from my iPhone On Feb 20, 2019, at 10:31 AM, rogerbateman@rocketmail.com [mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:   Gentlemen something to test your little grey cells!   My 1937 Riley has Rudge-Whitworth centre lock wire wheels which are identical in design to my MG TC. Having discovered a broken spoke (outer-laced), I attempted to remove the wheel but found it wouldn t come off.  Further investigation revealed that the inner end of the broken spoke, about 10mm long and complete with its flared end, was trapped between the wheel nut threads and the wheel, thus preventing the splines from clearing the threads to allow the wheel to come off the hub.  The offending article is too large to extract between the wheel and the threads, so I am at a loss to know what to do. The only way I can think of is to drill out the hole in the hub for the broken spoke to about 10mm and extract the broken piece through that. The wheel needs rebuilding anyway, so no doubt the hole could be welded up and re-drilled back to the correct size. Has anyone else had this problem?  Suggestions gratefully received before I get drilling!   Many thanks, Roger [b][/b][i][/i][u][/u]

[Joe Curto]

Before you go drilling out hole in the rim why not contact wheel rebuilder and ask his opinion , can he repair the oversize hole  or will you have destroyed the rim -----Original Message----- From: rogerbateman@rocketmail.com [mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> To: mg-tabc mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wed, Feb 20, 2019 10:35 am Subject: [mg-tabc] Broken Spoke - Stuck Wheel   Gentlemen something to test your little grey cells!   My 1937 Riley has Rudge-Whitworth centre lock wire wheels which are identical in design to my MG TC. Having discovered a broken spoke (outer-laced), I attempted to remove the wheel but found it wouldn t come off.  Further investigation revealed that the inner end of the broken spoke, about 10mm long and complete with its flared end, was trapped between the wheel nut threads and the wheel, thus preventing the splines from clearing the threads to allow the wheel to come off the hub.  The offending article is too large to extract between the wheel and the threads, so I am at a loss to know what to do. The only way I can think of is to drill out the hole in the hub for the broken spoke to about 10mm and extract the broken piece through that. The wheel needs rebuilding anyway, so no doubt the hole could be welded up and re-drilled back to the correct size. Has anyone else had this problem?  Suggestions gratefully received before I get drilling!   Many thanks, Roger [b][/b][i][/i][u][/u] #ygrps-yiv-1194042583 #ygrps-yiv-1194042583yiv2125590427 #ygrps-yiv-1194042583yiv2125590427 -- #ygrps-yiv-1194042583yiv2125590427ygrp-mkp {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;}#ygrps-yiv-1194042583 #ygrps-yiv-1194042583yiv2125590427 #ygrps-yiv-1194042583yiv2125590427ygrp-mkp hr {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}#ygrps-yiv-1194042583 #ygrps-yiv-1194042583yiv2125590427 #ygrps-yiv-1194042583yiv2125590427ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1194042583yiv2125590427hd {color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;}#ygrps-yiv-1194042583 #ygrps-yiv-1194042583yiv2125590427 #ygrps-yiv-1194042583yiv2125590427ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1194042583yiv2125590427ads {margin-bottom:10px;}#ygrps-yiv-1194042583 #ygrps-yiv-1194042583yiv2125590427 #ygrps-yiv-1194042583yiv2125590427ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1194042583yiv2125590427ad {padding:0 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[e_callo]

If you think you can get the broken spoke out a 10mm hole why not first try and get the spoke back out the original hole, put a vise grip on it to hold it in place while you remove the wheel. I have had this problem before on the race TC (replacing broken spokes is just a normal routine between race items on that car).  But I have always been able to dig the broken part out - but is was just the head of the spokes Ed -----Original Message----- From: rogerbateman@rocketmail.com [mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> To: mg-tabc mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wed, Feb 20, 2019 10:35 am Subject: [mg-tabc] Broken Spoke - Stuck Wheel   Gentlemen something to test your little grey cells!   My 1937 Riley has Rudge-Whitworth centre lock wire wheels which are identical in design to my MG TC. Having discovered a broken spoke (outer-laced), I attempted to remove the wheel but found it wouldn t come off.  Further investigation revealed that the inner end of the broken spoke, about 10mm long and complete with its flared end, was trapped between the wheel nut threads and the wheel, thus preventing the splines from clearing the threads to allow the wheel to come off the hub.  The offending article is too large to extract between the wheel and the threads, so I am at a loss to know what to do. The only way I can think of is to drill out the hole in the hub for the broken spoke to about 10mm and extract the broken piece through that. The wheel needs rebuilding anyway, so no doubt the hole could be welded up and re-drilled back to the correct size. Has anyone else had this problem?  Suggestions gratefully received before I get drilling!   Many thanks, Roger [b][/b][i][/i][u][/u] #ygrps-yiv-2026197267 #ygrps-yiv-2026197267yiv4591298902 #ygrps-yiv-2026197267yiv4591298902 -- #ygrps-yiv-2026197267yiv4591298902ygrp-mkp {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;}#ygrps-yiv-2026197267 #ygrps-yiv-2026197267yiv4591298902 #ygrps-yiv-2026197267yiv4591298902ygrp-mkp hr {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}#ygrps-yiv-2026197267 #ygrps-yiv-2026197267yiv4591298902 #ygrps-yiv-2026197267yiv4591298902ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-2026197267yiv4591298902hd {color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;}#ygrps-yiv-2026197267 #ygrps-yiv-2026197267yiv4591298902 #ygrps-yiv-2026197267yiv4591298902ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-2026197267yiv4591298902ads {margin-bottom:10px;}#ygrps-yiv-2026197267 #ygrps-yiv-2026197267yiv4591298902 #ygrps-yiv-2026197267yiv4591298902ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-2026197267yiv4591298902ad {padding:0 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[Dick Little]

by trapping it with the mgnetMight it be possible to rotate the wheel until the the broken spoke hole is at the bottom, suitably protec t the rim from damage as you rap on it with a hammer to jar the piece loose, away from the splines until they are free from the jam? Then try and pull the wheel. Just a thought; never tried it myself. Another thought, while the wheel is in that position, put a thin steel roofing nail on a small magnet, sleeve the nail with shrink wrap, and try to hold the piece away from the splines by magnetic force as you rap the rim. Dick Little TA1326

On Wed, Feb 20, 2019 at 11:37 AM Joe Curto joecurto@aol.com [mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> wrote: [u][/u] Before you go drilling out hole in the rim why not contact wheel rebuilder and ask his opinion , can he repair the oversize hole or will you have destroyed the rim -----Original Message----- From: rogerbateman@rocketmail.com [mg-tabc] To: mg-tabc mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wed, Feb 20, 2019 10:35 am Subject: [mg-tabc] Broken Spoke - Stuck Wheel Gentlemen something to test your little grey cells! My 1937 Riley has Rudge-Whitworth centre lock wire wheels which are identical in design to my MG TC. Having discovered a broken spoke (outer-laced), I attempted to remove the wheel but found it wouldn t come off. Further investigation revealed that the inner end of the broken spoke, about 10mm long and complete with its flared end, was trapped between the wheel nut threads and the wheel, thus preventing the splines from clearing the threads to allow the wheel to come off the hub. The offending article is too large to extract between the wheel and the threads, so I am at a loss to know what to do. The only way I can think of is to drill out the hole in the hub for the broken spoke to about 10mm and extract the broken piece through that. The wheel needs rebuilding anyway, so no doubt the hole could be welded up and re-drilled back to the correct size. Has anyone else had this problem? Suggestions gratefully received before I get drilling! Many thanks, Roger [b][/b][i][/i][u][/u]

[Frank Graham]

Attachments : #ygrps-yiv-1977563820 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;} Roger, I am trying to visualize your problem, by you description I think that the broken piece of spoke is located on the outer area of the hub and has dropped into the area located just inboard of the outer cone of the hub ( labeled D in the diagram). If that is the case it would seem that the only way the wheel can come off is if the broken piece of spoke were pulled back into place with the flared end seated in its place. EDM doesn't seem to be an option since the process requires the piece of spoke to be vaporized to be in contact with both electrodes and there appears no way to have access to get the electrode where it needs to be not to mention that I don't think it is possible to pull the axle and hub without pulling the brake drum and you can't do that with the wheel stuck in place. Its that or take the entire vehicle to the EDM.  All I can think of is to position the wheel so that the broken spoke is at the bottom and then tap on the hub with a copper hammer as you move the wheel back and forth an inch or so and pray that the broken spoke with the help of gravity eventually drops back into the hole in the rim. Then you can grab it and hold it in place as you remove the wheel, however you might have better odds of winning the lottery. It is hard to understand how are you able to see the broken piece?  If there is enough room to see it can you try to use some thin wire or a dental instrument to attempt to manipulate the broken piece back into the spoke hole?   Regards, Frank  [b]From:[/b] mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of rogerbateman@rocketmail.com [mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> [b]Sent:[/b] Wednesday, February 20, 2019 10:31 AM [b]To:[/b] mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [b]Subject:[/b] [mg-tabc] Broken Spoke - Stuck Wheel    

Gentlemen something to test your little grey cells!  

My 1937 Riley has Rudge-Whitworth centre lock wire wheels which are identical in design to my MG TC. Having discovered a broken spoke (outer-laced), I attempted to remove the wheel but found it wouldn t come off.

 Further investigation revealed that the inner end of the broken spoke, about 10mm long and complete with its flared end, was trapped between the wheel nut threads and the wheel, thus preventing the splines from clearing the threads to allow the wheel to come off the hub.

 The offending article is too large to extract between the wheel and the threads, so I am at a loss to know what to do. The only way I can think of is to drill out the hole in the hub for the broken spoke to about 10mm and extract the broken piece through that. The wheel needs rebuilding anyway, so no doubt the hole could be welded up and re-drilled back to the correct size.

Has anyone else had this problem?  Suggestions gratefully received before I get drilling!

 

Many thanks,

Roger

[Bill Hyatt]

Frank/Roger,If the EMD shop cannot get to the 10mm stub to turn it into pixie dust perhaps you can use a version of what Frank thought is. If the remanent indeed has 10mm sticking out of rim hole perhaps that is enough to grip with Vicegrips & pull tight enough t clear hub spline. If remanent is loose in hub assembly, as Frank understands the problem, one might be able to manipulate the remanent back to its hole using a magnet at BDC & then using a pick or tweezers to manipulate remanent stub back thru its hole to be held in place with dab of glue, wedge or Vice-grips. -Bill HyattSent from my iPhone

On Feb 20, 2019, at 12:11 PM, Frank Graham frankgraham@msn.com [mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

  Roger, I am trying to visualize your problem, by you description I think that the broken piece of spoke is located on the outer area of the hub and has dropped into the area located just inboard of the outer cone of the hub ( labeled D in the diagram). If that is the case it would seem that the only way the wheel can come off is if the broken piece of spoke were pulled back into place with the flared end seated in its place. EDM doesn't seem to be an option since the process requires the piece of spoke to be vaporized to be in contact with both electrodes and there appears no way to have access to get the electrode where it needs to be not to mention that I don't think it is possible to pull the axle and hub without pulling the brake drum and you can't do that with the wheel stuck in place. Its that or take the entire vehicle to the EDM.  All I can think of is to position the wheel so that the broken spoke is at the bottom and then tap on the hub with a copper hammer as you move the wheel back and forth an inch or so and pray that the broken spoke with the help of gravity eventually drops back into the hole in the rim. Then you can grab it and hold it in place as you remove the wheel, however you might have better odds of winning the lottery. It is hard to understand how are you able to see the broken piece?  If there is enough room to see it can you try to use some thin wire or a dental instrument to attempt to manipulate the broken piece back into the spoke hole?   Regards, Frank  [b]From:[/b] mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of rogerbateman@rocketmail.com [mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> [b]Sent:[/b] Wednesday, February 20, 2019 10:31 AM [b]To:[/b] mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [b]Subject:[/b] [mg-tabc] Broken Spoke - Stuck Wheel    

Gentlemen something to test your little grey cells!  

My 1937 Riley has Rudge-Whitworth centre lock wire wheels which are identical in design to my MG TC. Having discovered a broken spoke (outer-laced), I attempted to remove the wheel but found it wouldn t come off.

 Further investigation revealed that the inner end of the broken spoke, about 10mm long and complete with its flared end, was trapped between the wheel nut threads and the wheel, thus preventing the splines from clearing the threads to allow the wheel to come off the hub.

 The offending article is too large to extract between the wheel and the threads, so I am at a loss to know what to do. The only way I can think of is to drill out the hole in the hub for the broken spoke to about 10mm and extract the broken piece through that. The wheel needs rebuilding anyway, so no doubt the hole could be welded up and re-drilled back to the correct size.

Has anyone else had this problem?  Suggestions gratefully received before I get drilling!

 

Many thanks,

Roger

[b][/b][i][/i][u][/u]

[Jorolibb@aol.com]

Roger, You don't say whether it's a front or rear wheel. If front, remove the nut from the stub axle/spindle and remove the wheel and hub together. This will make it much easier to work on the wheel and do as others have suggested. Another possible solution once the wheel/hub assembly is off the car is to block up the inner hub of the wheel and press the hub out of the wheel. Something is bound to give with enough pressure, which hopefully will be the end of the spoke deforming as the spline hub is pressed from the wheel hub. If it's the rear wheel, you'll have no joy! Good luck, John -----Original Message----- From: rogerbateman@rocketmail.com [mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> To: mg-tabc mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wed, Feb 20, 2019 10:35 am Subject: [mg-tabc] Broken Spoke - Stuck Wheel   Gentlemen something to test your little grey cells!   My 1937 Riley has Rudge-Whitworth centre lock wire wheels which are identical in design to my MG TC. Having discovered a broken spoke (outer-laced), I attempted to remove the wheel but found it wouldn t come off.  Further investigation revealed that the inner end of the broken spoke, about 10mm long and complete with its flared end, was trapped between the wheel nut threads and the wheel, thus preventing the splines from clearing the threads to allow the wheel to come off the hub.  The offending article is too large to extract between the wheel and the threads, so I am at a loss to know what to do. The only way I can think of is to drill out the hole in the hub for the broken spoke to about 10mm and extract the broken piece through that. The wheel needs rebuilding anyway, so no doubt the hole could be welded up and re-drilled back to the correct size. Has anyone else had this problem?  Suggestions gratefully received before I get drilling!   Many thanks, Roger [b][/b][i][/i][u][/u] #ygrps-yiv-81201753 #ygrps-yiv-81201753yiv5870094295 #ygrps-yiv-81201753yiv5870094295 -- #ygrps-yiv-81201753yiv5870094295ygrp-mkp {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;}#ygrps-yiv-81201753 #ygrps-yiv-81201753yiv5870094295 #ygrps-yiv-81201753yiv5870094295ygrp-mkp hr {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}#ygrps-yiv-81201753 #ygrps-yiv-81201753yiv5870094295 #ygrps-yiv-81201753yiv5870094295ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-81201753yiv5870094295hd {color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;}#ygrps-yiv-81201753 #ygrps-yiv-81201753yiv5870094295 #ygrps-yiv-81201753yiv5870094295ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-81201753yiv5870094295ads {margin-bottom:10px;}#ygrps-yiv-81201753 #ygrps-yiv-81201753yiv5870094295 #ygrps-yiv-81201753yiv5870094295ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-81201753yiv5870094295ad {padding:0 0;}#ygrps-yiv-81201753 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[Roger Bateman]

Many thanks for all the helpful and considered responses to my problem.  Frank Graham s drawing is very useful for understanding the problem.  The spoke has broken off flush with the wheel and the portion that would normally be inside the hole in the wheel has dropped through into the space marked D. I am able to see it by directing an LED inspection light axially between the hub and wheel, and am able to manipulate it with thin probes (actually .025 feeler gauges!), but it is too large to come out between the wheel and the hub. I like the suggestion to position the wheel at BDC and try to manipulate the broken piece back up the hole from whence it came with the aid of a magnet.  That s what I am going to try today, and I ll report back later!   Again, many thanks to all, Roger