Cam Replacement

[Eugene F Gillam]

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How hard is it to change out a cam with the engine in the car? I was warming up my engine in the garage the other day, temperature coming up nicely, oil pressure running between 65/70 (normal this engine) when all of a sudden there were loud noises and the oil pressure dropped to 0. The engine kept running normally. I pulled the oil pump yesterday and found the oil pump gear that meshes with the cam was missing a tooth and several other teeth were damaged. I ve ordered an endoscope so I can look at the cam in the engine but I m expecting the worst. I ve built several engines from the ground up outside the car but want to avoid having to pull it if not necessary. Thanks in advance, Gene Gillam Saucier, MS Sent from my iPad

[laf48@aol.com]

Mike, while I do greatly appreciate your vast knowledge on this list I do disagree on a few of your statements. 1) No I do not pull the engine for a cam replacement only, not fun but neither is pulling the engine. 2) When installing the cam ALWAYS check the lubrication hole, ONLY of the center bearing,this is done by  inserting a paper clip or wire  wire into the oil galley blanking plug then rotate the engine as you are rotating the engine if alignment is correct you will see the wire/paper clip wiggle.Not almost impossible, but again not fun, BUT much easier than installing # 2 piston in situ! 3) The C clip  before  rear cam journal prevents the cam from knocking out the expansion or core plug as the rear bearing / bushing is already locked in place. Wrenching since I was 12 yrs old. Len Fanelli Abingdon Performance Ltd. -----Original Message----- From: CHARLES HUGHES hughes.c.m@att.net [mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> To: mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com>; Eugene F Gillam anngene@bellsouth.net> Sent: Tue, Feb 12, 2019 6:56 pm Subject: Re: [mg-tabc] Cam Replacement #ygrps-yiv-1404924653 #ygrps-yiv-1404924653yiv4293031599 #ygrps-yiv-1404924653yiv4293031599 -- #ygrps-yiv-1404924653yiv4293031599 .ygrps-yiv-1404924653yiv4293031599ygrp-photo-title{clear:both;font-size:smaller;min-height:15px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;width:75px;}#ygrps-yiv-1404924653 #ygrps-yiv-1404924653yiv4293031599 div.ygrps-yiv-1404924653yiv4293031599ygrp-photo{background-position:center;background-repeat:no-repeat;background-color:white;border:1px solid black;min-height:62px;width:62px;}#ygrps-yiv-1404924653 #ygrps-yiv-1404924653yiv4293031599 div.ygrps-yiv-1404924653yiv4293031599photo-title a, #ygrps-yiv-1404924653 #ygrps-yiv-1404924653yiv4293031599 div.ygrps-yiv-1404924653yiv4293031599photo-title a:active, #ygrps-yiv-1404924653 #ygrps-yiv-1404924653yiv4293031599 div.ygrps-yiv-1404924653yiv4293031599photo-title a:hover, #ygrps-yiv-1404924653 #ygrps-yiv-1404924653yiv4293031599 div.ygrps-yiv-1404924653yiv4293031599photo-title a:visited {text-decoration:none;}#ygrps-yiv-1404924653 #ygrps-yiv-1404924653yiv4293031599 div.ygrps-yiv-1404924653yiv4293031599attach-table div.ygrps-yiv-1404924653yiv4293031599attach-row {clear:both;}#ygrps-yiv-1404924653 #ygrps-yiv-1404924653yiv4293031599 div.ygrps-yiv-1404924653yiv4293031599attach-table div.ygrps-yiv-1404924653yiv4293031599attach-row div {float:left;}#ygrps-yiv-1404924653 #ygrps-yiv-1404924653yiv4293031599 p {clear:both;padding:15px 0 3px 0;overflow:hidden;}#ygrps-yiv-1404924653 #ygrps-yiv-1404924653yiv4293031599 div.ygrps-yiv-1404924653yiv4293031599ygrp-file {width:30px;}#ygrps-yiv-1404924653 #ygrps-yiv-1404924653yiv4293031599 div.ygrps-yiv-1404924653yiv4293031599attach-table div.ygrps-yiv-1404924653yiv4293031599attach-row div div a {text-decoration:none;}#ygrps-yiv-1404924653 #ygrps-yiv-1404924653yiv4293031599 div.ygrps-yiv-1404924653yiv4293031599attach-table div.ygrps-yiv-1404924653yiv4293031599attach-row div div span {font-weight:normal;}#ygrps-yiv-1404924653 #ygrps-yiv-1404924653yiv4293031599 div.ygrps-yiv-1404924653yiv4293031599ygrp-file-title {font-weight:bold;}#ygrps-yiv-1404924653 Well....  You've got chunks of oil pump gear and probably cam gear loose in your oil pan - not good.  The dizzy runs off that cam gear, too, so you'd better pull it and check it as well.  You should be able to pretty easily see the state of the cam gear when looking down the dizzy orifice. The cam comes out of the block from the front. So this means that you will have to remove the bonnet and radiator to access the front of the engine. The big problem with retracting it in situ is that the center cam bearings will come apart and drop into the pan while you are extracting the cam.  They are too large to fall down below the windage tray in the pan, and you DON'T ant them to get caught between the crank and any part of the block, or you will be buying yourself a new engine!  So you are going to have to drop the pan to deal with the loose bits of of gear and the center cam bearings, and the only way to insert the center cam bearings is from inside the crank case. So now you have taken apart almost all of the engine compartment except for undoing the intake and exhaust manifolds, flywheel housing and clutch fork.   Might as well just pull the engine!   When installing the new cam It is almost impossible to re-insert those bearings and line up the locating screw holes with the engine in the car. AND you don't want to insert the cam TOO far into the block or you will pop the expansion plug behind the rear bearing out of the block and into the flywheel housing.  The loose expansion plug can wreak all sorts of havoc in there if it gets caught up by the flywheel.  If you pop that expansion plug you are going to have to pull the flywheel to fit the new one, which means the engine is coming out anyway. I'm not saying someone with teeny fingers  and limitless reservoirs of patience couldn't eventually pull it off, but in the end it would be faster and safer to pull the engine do the job on your work bench.  - Mike Hughes  - -   '37 TA 0512

On Tuesday, February 12, 2019, 5:23:23 PM EST, Eugene F Gillam anngene@bellsouth.net [mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

  How hard is it to change out a cam with the engine in the car? I was warming up my engine in the garage the other day, temperature coming up nicely, oil pressure running between 65/70 (normal this engine) when all of a sudden there were loud noises and the oil pressure dropped to 0. The engine kept running normally. I pulled the oil pump yesterday and found the oil pump gear that meshes with the cam was missing a tooth and several other teeth were damaged. I ve ordered an endoscope so I can look at the cam in the engine but I m expecting the worst. I ve built several engines from the ground up outside the car but want to avoid having to pull it if not necessary. Thanks in advance, Gene Gillam Saucier, MS Sent from my iPad #ygrps-yiv-1404924653 #ygrps-yiv-1404924653yiv4293031599 -- #ygrps-yiv-1404924653yiv4293031599ygrp-mkp {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;}#ygrps-yiv-1404924653 #ygrps-yiv-1404924653yiv4293031599 #ygrps-yiv-1404924653yiv4293031599ygrp-mkp hr {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}#ygrps-yiv-1404924653 #ygrps-yiv-1404924653yiv4293031599 #ygrps-yiv-1404924653yiv4293031599ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1404924653yiv4293031599hd {color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;}#ygrps-yiv-1404924653 #ygrps-yiv-1404924653yiv4293031599 #ygrps-yiv-1404924653yiv4293031599ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1404924653yiv4293031599ads {margin-bottom:10px;}#ygrps-yiv-1404924653 #ygrps-yiv-1404924653yiv4293031599 #ygrps-yiv-1404924653yiv4293031599ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1404924653yiv4293031599ad {padding:0 0;}#ygrps-yiv-1404924653 #ygrps-yiv-1404924653yiv4293031599 #ygrps-yiv-1404924653yiv4293031599ygrp-mkp 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[CHARLES HUGHES]

Hi Len - Opinions are like noses - everybody's got one but they are not all the same!  On balance, this is probably a good thing.  One of the best things about this list is that we can seek and receive a variety of sincerely offered opinions. Yours is offered from your experience, which very likely exceeds mine, and I am grateful for your observations.  I suspect Gene is, too! Item #1:  Gene was asking how hard it would be to do the job without in situ, because he would like to avoid pulling the engine.  My approach to responding to him is how does the average home mechanic go about doing such a job in their own garage? Most of us probably have to do it laying on our backs on a creeper or a drop cloth with the car up on jack stands.  These days some have home lifts, which might make it a little easier, but like you said: it is not fun nor is pulling the engine. Item #2:  You are quite right:  I was thinking "oil feed and locating screw holes" but only typed "locating screw holes."  Mea Culpa!  Still it is possible the inadvertently install the center bearings upside down, and then the center cam journal will not be lubricated even though both holes appear to line up.  It might be a bit easier to verify that the holes are both lined up and correctly oriented with the engine on the bench.  I'm also remembering that I've always installed the cam and cam bearings in a bare block before installing the pistons or crank simply because doing it with the crank and connecting rods in the way makes it harder.  Doing it on my back from underneath would make it harder still. Item #3:  It may be safe to say that most XPAGs have been apart one or more times in their lifetimes.  I have torn down and built several of my own XPAG engines, but have also assisted others to tear down their own engines, as well as junk yard or otherwise acquired donor replacement engines.  A surprising number of the engines that I have assisted tearing down were missing the circlip at the rear of the cam. Two were missing the expansion plug and must have leaked like a faucet if it was missing when the engine was still running!  so the possibility of popping out the expansion plug behind the rear bearing is not completely remote.  A friend complained of a ringing noise in his newly rebuilt engine and it turned out to be a loose expansion plug behind the flywheel. How it came loose is anyone's guess - it could have just been poorly installed, or maybe not even the correct diameter plug in the first place, or maybe he or the machine shop left the circlip off his camshaft! So taking all the above into consideration the opinion I offered Gene was that, on balance, it might be less hard (maybe even faster and safer) for him to do the job he is contemplating by pulling the engine and doing it on the bench.  It is just one of many that he may receive. Cheers! - Mike Hughes  - -   '37 TA 0512

On Tuesday, February 12, 2019, 7:41:40 PM EST, laf48@aol.com [mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

  Mike, while I do greatly appreciate your vast knowledge on this list I do disagree on a few of your statements. 1) No I do not pull the engine for a cam replacement only, not fun but neither is pulling the engine. 2) When installing the cam ALWAYS check the lubrication hole, ONLY of the center bearing,this is done by  inserting a paper clip or wire  wire into the oil galley blanking plug then rotate the engine as you are rotating the engine if alignment is correct you will see the wire/paper clip wiggle.Not almost impossible, but again not fun, BUT much easier than installing # 2 piston in situ! 3) The C clip  before  rear cam journal prevents the cam from knocking out the expansion or core plug as the rear bearing / bushing is already locked in place. Wrenching since I was 12 yrs old. Len Fanelli Abingdon Performance Ltd. -----Original Message----- From: CHARLES HUGHES hughes.c.m@att.net [mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> To: mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com>; Eugene F Gillam anngene@bellsouth.net> Sent: Tue, Feb 12, 2019 6:56 pm Subject: Re: [mg-tabc] Cam Replacement Well....  You've got chunks of oil pump gear and probably cam gear loose in your oil pan - not good.  The dizzy runs off that cam gear, too, so you'd better pull it and check it as well.  You should be able to pretty easily see the state of the cam gear when looking down the dizzy orifice. The cam comes out of the block from the front. So this means that you will have to remove the bonnet and radiator to access the front of the engine. The big problem with retracting it in situ is that the center cam bearings will come apart and drop into the pan while you are extracting the cam.  They are too large to fall down below the windage tray in the pan, and you DON'T ant them to get caught between the crank and any part of the block, or you will be buying yourself a new engine!  So you are going to have to drop the pan to deal with the loose bits of of gear and the center cam bearings, and the only way to insert the center cam bearings is from inside the crank case. So now you have taken apart almost all of the engine compartment except for undoing the intake and exhaust manifolds, flywheel housing and clutch fork.   Might as well just pull the engine!   When installing the new cam It is almost impossible to re-insert those bearings and line up the locating screw holes with the engine in the car. AND you don't want to insert the cam TOO far into the block or you will pop the expansion plug behind the rear bearing out of the block and into the flywheel housing.  The loose expansion plug can wreak all sorts of havoc in there if it gets caught up by the flywheel.  If you pop that expansion plug you are going to have to pull the flywheel to fit the new one, which means the engine is coming out anyway. I'm not saying someone with teeny fingers  and limitless reservoirs of patience couldn't eventually pull it off, but in the end it would be faster and safer to pull the engine do the job on your work bench.  - Mike Hughes  - -   '37 TA 0512 On Tuesday, February 12, 2019, 5:23:23 PM EST, Eugene F Gillam anngene@bellsouth.net [mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:   How hard is it to change out a cam with the engine in the car? I was warming up my engine in the garage the other day, temperature coming up nicely, oil pressure running between 65/70 (normal this engine) when all of a sudden there were loud noises and the oil pressure dropped to 0. The engine kept running normally. I pulled the oil pump yesterday and found the oil pump gear that meshes with the cam was missing a tooth and several other teeth were damaged. I ve ordered an endoscope so I can look at the cam in the engine but I m expecting the worst. I ve built several engines from the ground up outside the car but want to avoid having to pull it if not necessary. 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[Steve S]

Just one note on the subject regarding the clip at the rear of the camshaft... it is not actually required to be there. It only serves a function during assembly. The allowable movement of the camshaft is determined by the end float at the thrust bearing up front, and is far too small to allow the cam to hit the rear plug once everything is bolted in place. So if you're missing the clip, don't let it hold up the rebuild. Just be careful not to slam the camshaft against the rear plug while inserting! - Steve Simmons, TC8975 On 2/12/2019 6:49 PM, CHARLES HUGHES hughes.c.m@att.net [mg-tabc] wrote:

Hi Len - Opinions are like noses - everybody's got one but they are not all the same! On balance, this is probably a good thing. One of the best things about this list is that we can seek and receive a variety of sincerely offered opinions. Yours is offered from your experience, which very likely exceeds mine, and I am grateful for your observations. I suspect Gene is, too! Item #1: Gene was asking how hard it would be to do the job without in situ, because he would like to avoid pulling the engine. My approach to responding to him is how does the average home mechanic go about doing such a job in their own garage? Most of us probably have to do it laying on our backs on a creeper or a drop cloth with the car up on jack stands. These days some have home lifts, which might make it a little easier, but like you said: it is not fun nor is pulling the engine. Item #2: You are quite right: I was thinking "oil feed and locating screw holes" but only typed "locating screw holes." Mea Culpa! Still it is possible the inadvertently install the center bearings upside down, and then the center cam journal will not be lubricated even though both holes appear to line up. It might be a bit easier to verify that the holes are both lined up and correctly oriented with the engine on the bench. I'm also remembering that I've always installed the cam and cam bearings in a bare block before installing the pistons or crank simply because doing it with the crank and connecting rods in the way makes it harder. Doing it on my back from underneath would make it harder still. Item #3: It may be safe to say that most XPAGs have been apart one or more times in their lifetimes. I have torn down and built several of my own XPAG engines, but have also assisted others to tear down their own engines, as well as junk yard or otherwise acquired donor replacement engines. A surprising number of the engines that I have assisted tearing down were missing the circlip at the rear of the cam. Two were missing the expansion plug and must have leaked like a faucet if it was missing when the engine was still running! so the possibility of popping out the expansion plug behind the rear bearing is not completely remote. A friend complained of a ringing noise in his newly rebuilt engine and it turned out to be a loose expansion plug behind the flywheel. How it came loose is anyone's guess - it could have just been poorly installed, or maybe not even the correct diameter plug in the first place, or maybe he or the machine shop left the circlip off his camshaft! So taking all the above into consideration the opinion I offered Gene was that, on balance, it might be less hard (maybe even faster and safer) for him to do the job he is contemplating by pulling the engine and doing it on the bench. It is just one of many that he may receive. Cheers! - Mike Hughes - - '37 TA 0512 On Tuesday, February 12, 2019, 7:41:40 PM EST, laf48@aol.com [mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com wrote: Mike, while I do greatly appreciate your vast knowledge on this list I do disagree on a few of your statements. 1) No I do not pull the engine for a cam replacement only, not fun but neither is pulling the engine. 2) When installing the cam ALWAYS check the lubrication hole, ONLY of the center bearing,this is done by inserting a paper clip or wire wire into the oil galley blanking plug then rotate the engine as you are rotating the engine if alignment is correct you will see the wire/paper clip wiggle.Not almost impossible, but again not fun, BUT much easier than installing # 2 piston in situ! 3) The C clip before rear cam journal prevents the cam from knocking out the expansion or core plug as the rear bearing / bushing is already locked in place. Wrenching since I was 12 yrs old. Len Fanelli Abingdon Performance Ltd. -----Original Message----- From: CHARLES HUGHES hughes.c.m@att.net [mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com To: mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com; Eugene F Gillam anngene@bellsouth.net Sent: Tue, Feb 12, 2019 6:56 pm Subject: Re: [mg-tabc] Cam Replacement Well.... You've got chunks of oil pump gear and probably cam gear loose in your oil pan - not good. The dizzy runs off that cam gear, too, so you'd better pull it and check it as well. You should be able to pretty easily see the state of the cam gear when looking down the dizzy orifice. The cam comes out of the block from the front. So this means that you will have to remove the bonnet and radiator to access the front of the engine. The big problem with retracting it in situ is that the center cam bearings will come apart and drop into the pan while you are extracting the cam. They are too large to fall down below the windage tray in the pan, and you DON'T ant them to get caught between the crank and any part of the block, or you will be buying yourself a new engine! So you are going to have to drop the pan to deal with the loose bits of of gear and the center cam bearings, and the only way to insert the center cam bearings is from inside the crank case. So now you have taken apart almost all of the engine compartment except for undoing the intake and exhaust manifolds, flywheel housing and clutch fork. Might as well just pull the engine! When installing the new cam It is almost impossible to re-insert those bearings and line up the locating screw holes with the engine in the car. AND you don't want to insert the cam TOO far into the block or you will pop the expansion plug behind the rear bearing out of the block and into the flywheel housing. The loose expansion plug can wreak all sorts of havoc in there if it gets caught up by the flywheel. If you pop that expansion plug you are going to have to pull the flywheel to fit the new one, which means the engine is coming out anyway. I'm not saying someone with teeny fingers and limitless reservoirs of patience couldn't eventually pull it off, but in the end it would be faster and safer to pull the engine do the job on your work bench. - Mike Hughes - - '37 TA 0512 On Tuesday, February 12, 2019, 5:23:23 PM EST, Eugene F Gillam anngene@bellsouth.net [mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com wrote: How hard is it to change out a cam with the engine in the car? I was warming up my engine in the garage the other day, temperature coming up nicely, oil pressure running between 65/70 (normal this engine) when all of a sudden there were loud noises and the oil pressure dropped to 0. The engine kept running normally. I pulled the oil pump yesterday and found the oil pump gear that meshes with the cam was missing a tooth and several other teeth were damaged. I ve ordered an endoscope so I can look at the cam in the engine but I m expecting the worst. I ve built several engines from the ground up outside the car but want to avoid having to pull it if not necessary. Thanks in advance, Gene Gillam Saucier, MS

[laf48@aol.com]

Oil pump failure! Seized pump. I had a customer who had the circlip break and lock up the pump about 3 years after he assembled his engine.Len Fanelli  -----Original Message----- From: Frank Graham frankgraham@msn.com [mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> To: mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com>; Eugene F Gillam anngene@bellsouth.net> Sent: Wed, Feb 13, 2019 11:18 AM Subject: Re: [mg-tabc] Cam Replacement #ygrps-yiv-482164070 #ygrps-yiv-482164070yiv7455068110 #ygrps-yiv-482164070yiv7455068110 -- #ygrps-yiv-482164070yiv7455068110 .ygrps-yiv-482164070yiv7455068110ygrp-photo-title{clear:both;font-size:smaller;min-height:15px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;width:75px;}#ygrps-yiv-482164070 #ygrps-yiv-482164070yiv7455068110 div.ygrps-yiv-482164070yiv7455068110ygrp-photo{background-position:center;background-repeat:no-repeat;background-color:white;border:1px solid black;min-height:62px;width:62px;}#ygrps-yiv-482164070 #ygrps-yiv-482164070yiv7455068110 div.ygrps-yiv-482164070yiv7455068110photo-title a, #ygrps-yiv-482164070 #ygrps-yiv-482164070yiv7455068110 div.ygrps-yiv-482164070yiv7455068110photo-title a:active, #ygrps-yiv-482164070 #ygrps-yiv-482164070yiv7455068110 div.ygrps-yiv-482164070yiv7455068110photo-title a:hover, #ygrps-yiv-482164070 #ygrps-yiv-482164070yiv7455068110 div.ygrps-yiv-482164070yiv7455068110photo-title a:visited {text-decoration:none;}#ygrps-yiv-482164070 #ygrps-yiv-482164070yiv7455068110 div.ygrps-yiv-482164070yiv7455068110attach-table div.ygrps-yiv-482164070yiv7455068110attach-row {clear:both;}#ygrps-yiv-482164070 #ygrps-yiv-482164070yiv7455068110 div.ygrps-yiv-482164070yiv7455068110attach-table div.ygrps-yiv-482164070yiv7455068110attach-row div {float:left;}#ygrps-yiv-482164070 #ygrps-yiv-482164070yiv7455068110 p {clear:both;padding:15px 0 3px 0;overflow:hidden;}#ygrps-yiv-482164070 #ygrps-yiv-482164070yiv7455068110 div.ygrps-yiv-482164070yiv7455068110ygrp-file {width:30px;}#ygrps-yiv-482164070 #ygrps-yiv-482164070yiv7455068110 div.ygrps-yiv-482164070yiv7455068110attach-table div.ygrps-yiv-482164070yiv7455068110attach-row div div a {text-decoration:none;}#ygrps-yiv-482164070 #ygrps-yiv-482164070yiv7455068110 div.ygrps-yiv-482164070yiv7455068110attach-table div.ygrps-yiv-482164070yiv7455068110attach-row div div span {font-weight:normal;}#ygrps-yiv-482164070 #ygrps-yiv-482164070yiv7455068110 div.ygrps-yiv-482164070yiv7455068110ygrp-file-title {font-weight:bold;}#ygrps-yiv-482164070 #ygrps-yiv-482164070 #ygrps-yiv-482164070yiv7455068110 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;} Gene, I am curious as to how many miles were on this engine since it's last rebuild and was the cam and/or oil pump gear replaced at that time? Also what would cause this type of gear failure? Too much end float on the cam, or just metal fatigue?  Unlike the dizzy where shims can be used to adjust how the gears mesh, the oil pump doesn't provide a way of adjustment. There is a paper gasket and that is it assuming that the gear and the shaft are machined to spec.  FWIW, as only an occasional engine builder I would be reluctant to attempt repairs without pulling and stripping the engine.  There appears to be a fair amount of metal floating around in your crankcase and I would want to be sure that all of it had been removed.  Frank [b]From:[/b] mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Eugene F Gillam anngene@bellsouth.net [mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> [b]Sent:[/b] Tuesday, February 12, 2019 5:23 PM [b]To:[/b] mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [b]Subject:[/b] [mg-tabc] Cam Replacement [1 Attachment]    

How hard is it to change out a cam with the engine in the car? I was warming up my engine in the garage the other day, temperature coming up nicely, oil pressure running between 65/70 (normal this engine) when all of a sudden there were loud noises and the oil pressure dropped to 0. The engine kept running normally. I pulled the oil pump yesterday and found the oil pump gear that meshes with the cam was missing a tooth and several other teeth were damaged. I ve ordered an endoscope so I can look at the cam in the engine but I m expecting the worst. I ve built several engines from the ground up outside the car but want to avoid having to pull it if not necessary. Thanks in advance, Gene Gillam Saucier, MS Sent from my iPad

[Joe Curto]

Is it possible that the pump drive gear was a replacement with a shaft & a seperate gear  held with a roll pin  ?? -----Original Message----- From: laf48@aol.com [mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> To: frankgraham frankgraham@msn.com>; mg-tabc mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com>; anngene anngene@bellsouth.net> Sent: Wed, Feb 13, 2019 11:28 am Subject: Re: Re: [mg-tabc] Cam Replacement   Oil pump failure! Seized pump. I had a customer who had the circlip break and lock up the pump about 3 years after he assembled his engine. Len Fanelli  -----Original Message----- From: Frank Graham frankgraham@msn.com [mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> To: mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com>; Eugene F Gillam anngene@bellsouth.net> Sent: Wed, Feb 13, 2019 11:18 AM Subject: Re: [mg-tabc] Cam Replacement Gene, I am curious as to how many miles were on this engine since it's last rebuild and was the cam and/or oil pump gear replaced at that time? Also what would cause this type of gear failure? Too much end float on the cam, or just metal fatigue?  Unlike the dizzy where shims can be used to adjust how the gears mesh, the oil pump doesn't provide a way of adjustment. There is a paper gasket and that is it assuming that the gear and the shaft are machined to spec.  FWIW, as only an occasional engine builder I would be reluctant to attempt repairs without pulling and stripping the engine.  There appears to be a fair amount of metal floating around in your crankcase and I would want to be sure that all of it had been removed.  Frank [b]From:[/b] mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Eugene F Gillam anngene@bellsouth.net [mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> [b]Sent:[/b] Tuesday, February 12, 2019 5:23 PM [b]To:[/b] mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [b]Subject:[/b] [mg-tabc] Cam Replacement [1 Attachment]     How hard is it to change out a cam with the engine in the car? I was warming up my engine in the garage the other day, temperature coming up nicely, oil pressure running between 65/70 (normal this engine) when all of a sudden there were loud noises and the oil pressure dropped to 0. The engine kept running normally. I pulled the oil pump yesterday and found the oil pump gear that meshes with the cam was missing a tooth and several other teeth were damaged. I ve ordered an endoscope so I can look at the cam in the engine but I m expecting the worst. I ve built several engines from the ground up outside the car but want to avoid having to pull it if not necessary. Thanks in advance, Gene Gillam Saucier, MS Sent from my iPad #ygrps-yiv-1114664483 #ygrps-yiv-1114664483yiv3497032092 #ygrps-yiv-1114664483yiv3497032092 -- #ygrps-yiv-1114664483yiv3497032092ygrp-mkp {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;}#ygrps-yiv-1114664483 #ygrps-yiv-1114664483yiv3497032092 #ygrps-yiv-1114664483yiv3497032092ygrp-mkp hr {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}#ygrps-yiv-1114664483 #ygrps-yiv-1114664483yiv3497032092 #ygrps-yiv-1114664483yiv3497032092ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1114664483yiv3497032092hd {color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;}#ygrps-yiv-1114664483 #ygrps-yiv-1114664483yiv3497032092 #ygrps-yiv-1114664483yiv3497032092ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1114664483yiv3497032092ads {margin-bottom:10px;}#ygrps-yiv-1114664483 #ygrps-yiv-1114664483yiv3497032092 #ygrps-yiv-1114664483yiv3497032092ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1114664483yiv3497032092ad {padding:0 0;}#ygrps-yiv-1114664483 #ygrps-yiv-1114664483yiv3497032092 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[e_callo]

You have to take the grill and radiator and most everything on the front of the motor off to get the cam out.  Not that much more work to pull the motor. Pull the motor and do it right to ensure you don't leave metal chips in the motor. If you do, you will be pulling the motor. Ed -----Original Message----- From: Frank Graham frankgraham@msn.com [mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> To: mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com>; Eugene F Gillam anngene@bellsouth.net> Sent: Wed, Feb 13, 2019 11:38 am Subject: Re: [mg-tabc] Cam Replacement   Gene, I am curious as to how many miles were on this engine since it's last rebuild and was the cam and/or oil pump gear replaced at that time? Also what would cause this type of gear failure? Too much end float on the cam, or just metal fatigue?  Unlike the dizzy where shims can be used to adjust how the gears mesh, the oil pump doesn't provide a way of adjustment. There is a paper gasket and that is it assuming that the gear and the shaft are machined to spec.  FWIW, as only an occasional engine builder I would be reluctant to attempt repairs without pulling and stripping the engine.  There appears to be a fair amount of metal floating around in your crankcase and I would want to be sure that all of it had been removed.  Frank [b]From:[/b] mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Eugene F Gillam anngene@bellsouth.net [mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> [b]Sent:[/b] Tuesday, February 12, 2019 5:23 PM [b]To:[/b] mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [b]Subject:[/b] [mg-tabc] Cam Replacement [1 Attachment]     How hard is it to change out a cam with the engine in the car? I was warming up my engine in the garage the other day, temperature coming up nicely, oil pressure running between 65/70 (normal this engine) when all of a sudden there were loud noises and the oil pressure dropped to 0. The engine kept running normally. I pulled the oil pump yesterday and found the oil pump gear that meshes with the cam was missing a tooth and several other teeth were damaged. I ve ordered an endoscope so I can look at the cam in the engine but I m expecting the worst. I ve built several engines from the ground up outside the car but want to avoid having to pull it if not necessary. Thanks in advance, Gene Gillam Saucier, MS Sent from my iPad #ygrps-yiv-1142688621 #ygrps-yiv-1142688621yiv8363352774 #ygrps-yiv-1142688621yiv8363352774 -- #ygrps-yiv-1142688621yiv8363352774ygrp-mkp {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;}#ygrps-yiv-1142688621 #ygrps-yiv-1142688621yiv8363352774 #ygrps-yiv-1142688621yiv8363352774ygrp-mkp hr {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}#ygrps-yiv-1142688621 #ygrps-yiv-1142688621yiv8363352774 #ygrps-yiv-1142688621yiv8363352774ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1142688621yiv8363352774hd {color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;}#ygrps-yiv-1142688621 #ygrps-yiv-1142688621yiv8363352774 #ygrps-yiv-1142688621yiv8363352774ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1142688621yiv8363352774ads {margin-bottom:10px;}#ygrps-yiv-1142688621 #ygrps-yiv-1142688621yiv8363352774 #ygrps-yiv-1142688621yiv8363352774ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1142688621yiv8363352774ad {padding:0 0;}#ygrps-yiv-1142688621 #ygrps-yiv-1142688621yiv8363352774 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[laf48@aol.com]

Possible Joe, but my money is on  https://mossmotors.com/circlip-driving- ... 4293> I had a circlip for the piston wrist pin fail and jam the oil pump on one of my race cars, new engine never apart as far as I know. Len Fanelli -----Original Message----- From: Joe Curto joecurto@aol.com [mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> To: laf48 laf48@aol.com>; frankgraham frankgraham@msn.com>; mg-tabc mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com>; anngene anngene@bellsouth.net> Sent: Wed, Feb 13, 2019 11:48 am Subject: Re: [mg-tabc] Cam Replacement #ygrps-yiv-2072909754 #ygrps-yiv-2072909754 -- #ygrps-yiv-2072909754yiv7758288029 #ygrps-yiv-2072909754yiv7758288029 .ygrps-yiv-2072909754yiv7758288029ygrp-photo-title{clear:both;font-size:smaller;min-height:15px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;width:75px;}#ygrps-yiv-2072909754 #ygrps-yiv-2072909754yiv7758288029 div.ygrps-yiv-2072909754yiv7758288029ygrp-photo{background-position:center;background-repeat:no-repeat;background-color:white;border:1px solid black;min-height:62px;width:62px;}#ygrps-yiv-2072909754 #ygrps-yiv-2072909754yiv7758288029 div.ygrps-yiv-2072909754yiv7758288029photo-title a, #ygrps-yiv-2072909754 #ygrps-yiv-2072909754yiv7758288029 div.ygrps-yiv-2072909754yiv7758288029photo-title a:active, #ygrps-yiv-2072909754 #ygrps-yiv-2072909754yiv7758288029 div.ygrps-yiv-2072909754yiv7758288029photo-title a:hover, #ygrps-yiv-2072909754 #ygrps-yiv-2072909754yiv7758288029 div.ygrps-yiv-2072909754yiv7758288029photo-title a:visited {text-decoration:none;}#ygrps-yiv-2072909754 #ygrps-yiv-2072909754yiv7758288029 div.ygrps-yiv-2072909754yiv7758288029attach-table div.ygrps-yiv-2072909754yiv7758288029attach-row {clear:both;}#ygrps-yiv-2072909754 #ygrps-yiv-2072909754yiv7758288029 div.ygrps-yiv-2072909754yiv7758288029attach-table div.ygrps-yiv-2072909754yiv7758288029attach-row div {float:left;}#ygrps-yiv-2072909754 #ygrps-yiv-2072909754yiv7758288029 p {clear:both;padding:15px 0 3px 0;overflow:hidden;}#ygrps-yiv-2072909754 #ygrps-yiv-2072909754yiv7758288029 div.ygrps-yiv-2072909754yiv7758288029ygrp-file {width:30px;}#ygrps-yiv-2072909754 #ygrps-yiv-2072909754yiv7758288029 div.ygrps-yiv-2072909754yiv7758288029attach-table div.ygrps-yiv-2072909754yiv7758288029attach-row div div a {text-decoration:none;}#ygrps-yiv-2072909754 #ygrps-yiv-2072909754yiv7758288029 div.ygrps-yiv-2072909754yiv7758288029attach-table div.ygrps-yiv-2072909754yiv7758288029attach-row div div span {font-weight:normal;}#ygrps-yiv-2072909754 #ygrps-yiv-2072909754yiv7758288029 div.ygrps-yiv-2072909754yiv7758288029ygrp-file-title {font-weight:bold;}#ygrps-yiv-2072909754 #ygrps-yiv-2072909754 #ygrps-yiv-2072909754 -- #ygrps-yiv-2072909754yiv7758288029 #ygrps-yiv-2072909754yiv7758288029ygrp-mkp {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;}#ygrps-yiv-2072909754 #ygrps-yiv-2072909754yiv7758288029 #ygrps-yiv-2072909754yiv7758288029ygrp-mkp hr {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}#ygrps-yiv-2072909754 #ygrps-yiv-2072909754yiv7758288029 #ygrps-yiv-2072909754yiv7758288029ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-2072909754yiv7758288029hd {color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;}#ygrps-yiv-2072909754 #ygrps-yiv-2072909754yiv7758288029 #ygrps-yiv-2072909754yiv7758288029ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-2072909754yiv7758288029ads {margin-bottom:10px;}#ygrps-yiv-2072909754 #ygrps-yiv-2072909754yiv7758288029 #ygrps-yiv-2072909754yiv7758288029ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-2072909754yiv7758288029ad {padding:0 0;}#ygrps-yiv-2072909754 #ygrps-yiv-2072909754yiv7758288029 #ygrps-yiv-2072909754yiv7758288029ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-2072909754yiv7758288029ad p {margin:0;}#ygrps-yiv-2072909754 #ygrps-yiv-2072909754yiv7758288029 #ygrps-yiv-2072909754yiv7758288029ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-2072909754yiv7758288029ad a {color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}#ygrps-yiv-2072909754 Is it possible that the pump drive gear was a replacement with a shaft & a seperate gear  held with a roll pin  ?? -----Original Message----- From: laf48@aol.com [mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> To: frankgraham frankgraham@msn.com>; mg-tabc mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com>; anngene anngene@bellsouth.net> Sent: Wed, Feb 13, 2019 11:28 am Subject: Re: Re: [mg-tabc] Cam Replacement   Oil pump failure! Seized pump. I had a customer who had the circlip break and lock up the pump about 3 years after he assembled his engine. Len Fanelli  -----Original Message----- From: Frank Graham frankgraham@msn.com [mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> To: mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com>; Eugene F Gillam anngene@bellsouth.net> Sent: Wed, Feb 13, 2019 11:18 AM Subject: Re: [mg-tabc] Cam Replacement Gene, I am curious as to how many miles were on this engine since it's last rebuild and was the cam and/or oil pump gear replaced at that time? Also what would cause this type of gear failure? Too much end float on the cam, or just metal fatigue?  Unlike the dizzy where shims can be used to adjust how the gears mesh, the oil pump doesn't provide a way of adjustment. There is a paper gasket and that is it assuming that the gear and the shaft are machined to spec.  FWIW, as only an occasional engine builder I would be reluctant to attempt repairs without pulling and stripping the engine.  There appears to be a fair amount of metal floating around in your crankcase and I would want to be sure that all of it had been removed.  Frank [color=#000000][b]From:[/b] mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Eugene F Gillam anngene@bellsouth.net [mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> [b]Sent:[/b] Tuesday, February 12, 2019 5:23 PM [b]To:[/b] mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [b]Subject:[/b] [mg-tabc] Cam Replacement [1 Attachment]     How hard is it to change out a cam with the engine in the car? I was warming up my engine in the garage the other day, temperature coming up nicely, oil pressure running between 65/70 (normal this engine) when all of a sudden there were loud noises and the oil pressure dropped to 0. The engine kept running normally. I pulled the oil pump yesterday and found the oil pump gear that meshes with the cam was missing a tooth and several other teeth were damaged. I ve ordered an endoscope so I can look at the cam in the engine but I m expecting the worst. I ve built several engines from the ground up outside the car but want to avoid having to pull it if not necessary. Thanks in advance, Gene Gillam Saucier, MS Sent from my iPad #ygrps-yiv-2072909754 #ygrps-yiv-2072909754yiv7758288029 -- #ygrps-yiv-2072909754yiv7758288029ygrp-mkp {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;}#ygrps-yiv-2072909754 #ygrps-yiv-2072909754yiv7758288029 #ygrps-yiv-2072909754yiv7758288029ygrp-mkp hr {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}#ygrps-yiv-2072909754 #ygrps-yiv-2072909754yiv7758288029 #ygrps-yiv-2072909754yiv7758288029ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-2072909754yiv7758288029hd {color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;}#ygrps-yiv-2072909754 #ygrps-yiv-2072909754yiv7758288029 #ygrps-yiv-2072909754yiv7758288029ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-2072909754yiv7758288029ads {margin-bottom:10px;}#ygrps-yiv-2072909754 #ygrps-yiv-2072909754yiv7758288029 #ygrps-yiv-2072909754yiv7758288029ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-2072909754yiv7758288029ad {padding:0 0;}#ygrps-yiv-2072909754 #ygrps-yiv-2072909754yiv7758288029 #ygrps-yiv-2072909754yiv7758288029ygrp-mkp 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[Eric Worpe]

Len has made an alarming observation concerning the circlips provided in oil pump rebuild kits. The original circlip was quite substantial, having a thickness of about 1.5mm and a wall depth of around 2mm. Replacement circlips look quite feeble and a few reports of their failure have been made. About 18 months ago a survey of possible alternative circlips was made and an American supplier found for an alternative beefier circlip. I'm not sure if this was ever followed up, but I believe Doug Pelton may have been informed of the findings. I will try to find my old notes and restart this issue. Regards, Eric. ________________________________________ From: laf48@aol.com Sent: 13 February 2019 16:28 Oil pump failure! Seized pump. I had a customer who had the circlip break and lock up the pump about 3 years after he assembled his engine. Len Fanelli

[Frank Graham]

#ygrps-yiv-653739590 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;} Gene, Now that the issue of failed circlips has been raised, is the circlip still intact? When you say that you used Moss parts did that include a new drive gear, shaft and circlip? You obviously have a lot of money sunk into this engine already so it would be nice to know what caused the failure before re-assembling it and hoping it doesn't happen again. I am particularly interested since I am planning to build up a very similar engine but with an 8 port cross flow head. Frank [b]From:[/b] mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Gene Gillam anngene@bellsouth.net [mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> [b]Sent:[/b] Wednesday, February 13, 2019 1:32 PM [b]To:[/b] mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [b]Subject:[/b] Re: [mg-tabc] Cam Replacement     Thanks for the input... Just so you know, the radiator has to come off and the front motor mounts have to be removed before you can jack up the engine to remove the oil pump. To answer some of the questions. The engine has less than a 1000 miles on it since being built. It has Len s roller cam, billet crank, Saenz rods and J&E pistons. It s a later TD engine with the later TD oil pump and yes, the pump was rebuilt using Moss parts. The gear is held on by a solid pin, not a roll pin. I am expecting to have to replace the cam but the reason I don t want to pull the engine is SPACE. The garage space it s in is barely longer than the car and I don t want to move it to the larger garage because I don t want to leave my wife s car outside until I finish the job...that s why I was asking about doing it with the engine in place. Best regards, Gene Gillam Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 13, 2019, at 05:22, John Seim kingseim@earthlink.net> wrote: > > Not that hard. Requires oil pan off, as well as radiator removal. > You should be able to turn the engine with a crank or socket, and inspect the cam gear. > I suspect that the pump gear came from Moss, and was held onto the shaft with a roll pin. > Fine for the list., not so good for the oil pump, and it s load. > > John Seim > >> On Feb 12, 2019, at 2:23 PM, Eugene F Gillam anngene@bellsouth.net [mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> wrote: >> >> How hard is it to change out a cam with the engine in the car? I was warming up my engine in the garage the other day, temperature coming up nicely, oil pressure running between 65/70 (normal this engine) when all of a sudden there were loud noises and the

oil pressure dropped to 0. The engine kept running normally.

>> >> I pulled the oil pump yesterday and found the oil pump gear that meshes with the cam was missing a tooth and several other teeth were damaged.. I ve ordered an endoscope so I can look at the cam in the engine but I m expecting the worst. >> >> I ve built several engines from the ground up outside the car but want to avoid having to pull it if not necessary. >> >> Thanks in advance, >> Gene Gillam >> Saucier, MS >> Sent from my iPad >> >> >> ------------------------------------ >> >> >> ------------------------------------ >> >> Yahoo Groups Links >> >> >> >> >