alignment

[ian thomson]

RE:

"Checking front end only will not tell you if the rear wheels are "aligned" with front wheels."

As the rear wheels are not adjustable it is immaterial - unless you are suggesting the chassis might be bent!  I get angry about these alignment places which try to sell me a " four wheel alignment " at increased cost when there is no adjustment on the rear end of the car I want checking anyway.  Not that I would take the TC, or any other wire wheeled car, to an alignment place anyway as there is no way they could cope.  If the rear is out of alignment it will just "crab" slightly on the road with no detriment to the tyres, and I doubt if this would be noticeable anyway.

Ian Thomson

Notts. UK.

[Richard Fritz]

I have to disagree with the statement that the rear axle alignment is not adjustable.  It can be adjusted by loosening the bolts that anchor the springs.  I discovered this when my TC developed a very serious tendency to wander when travelling on a straight section of road.  Remember that the steering box should be set to drag very slightly at the straight ahead position; if the rear axle does not align perfectly with the front wheels, the steering rocker shaft will be off center on the cam when going straight ahead.  Fortunately, I have a very competent alignment shop that has a sympathetic appreciation of older cars and they have helped me with this and other problems.   Richard Fritz, TC6649, Longmont Colorado USA     [b]From:[/b] i.thomson@talk21.com [mg-tabc] [b]Sent:[/b] Monday, September 18, 2017 3:23 AM [b]To:[/b] mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [b]Subject:[/b] [mg-tabc] alignment   RE: "Checking front end only will not tell you if the rear wheels are "aligned" with front wheels." As the rear wheels are not adjustable it is immaterial - unless you are suggesting the chassis might be bent!  I get angry about these alignment places which try to sell me a " four wheel alignment " at increased cost when there is no adjustment on the rear end of the car I want checking anyway.  Not that I would take the TC, or any other wire wheeled car, to an alignment place anyway as there is no way they could cope.  If the rear is out of alignment it will just "crab" slightly on the road with no detriment to the tyres, and I doubt if this would be noticeable anyway. Ian Thomson Notts. UK.

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[Bill Hyatt]

Also, if the frame is out of alignment, the chassis will crab down the road scrubbing out of parallel f. tires trying to keep car straight.

 

Bill

TC 4926

Odessa, Fl

 

[b]From:[/b] mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com] [b]On Behalf Of [/b]'Richard Fritz' RBFritz@comcast.net [mg-tabc] [b]Sent:[/b] Monday, September 18, 2017 11:58 AM [b]To:[/b] i.thomson@talk21.com; Yahoogroups [b]Subject:[/b] Re: [mg-tabc] alignment

 

 

I have to disagree with the statement that the rear axle alignment is not adjustable.  It can be adjusted by loosening the bolts that anchor the springs.  I discovered this when my TC developed a very serious tendency to wander when travelling on a straight section of road.  Remember that the steering box should be set to drag very slightly at the straight ahead position; if the rear axle does not align perfectly with the front wheels, the steering rocker shaft will be off center on the cam when going straight ahead.  Fortunately, I have a very competent alignment shop that has a sympathetic appreciation of older cars and they have helped me with this and other problems.

 

Richard Fritz, TC6649, Longmont Colorado USA

 

 

[b]From:[/b] i.thomson@talk21.com%20[mg-tabc]

[b]Sent:[/b] Monday, September 18, 2017 3:23 AM

[b]To:[/b] mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com

[b]Subject:[/b] [mg-tabc] alignment

 

 

RE: "Checking front end only will not tell you if the rear wheels are "aligned" with front wheels."

As the rear wheels are not adjustable it is immaterial - unless you are suggesting the chassis might be bent!  I get angry about these alignment places which try to sell me a " four wheel alignment " at increased cost when there is no adjustment on the rear end of the car I want checking anyway.  Not that I would take the TC, or any other wire wheeled car, to an alignment place anyway as there is no way they could cope.  If the rear is out of alignment it will just "crab" slightly on the road with no detriment to the tyres, and I doubt if this would be noticeable anyway.

Ian Thomson

Notts. UK.

 

Virus-free. [u]www.avg.com[/u]

[Rick]

Seems like there are many situations where we are needing a couple millimeters or a centimeter to put things exactly right.  The T ABC is one of those beasts where finding just the right adjustment room and method requires unusual technique, i.e. door gaps,  panel alignment, hood fit.   As Richard points out leaf springs can and do alter the overall alignment.  I would also agree with Ian that most shops don't have a clue when it comes to these and other classic vehicles

On September 18, 2017 at 11:58 AM "'Richard Fritz' RBFritz@comcast.net [mg-tabc]" mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:     I have to disagree with the statement that the rear axle alignment is not adjustable.  It can be adjusted by loosening the bolts that anchor the springs.  I discovered this when my TC developed a very serious tendency to wander when travelling on a straight section of road.  Remember that the steering box should be set to drag very slightly at the straight ahead position; if the rear axle does not align perfectly with the front wheels, the steering rocker shaft will be off center on the cam when going straight ahead.  Fortunately, I have a very competent alignment shop that has a sympathetic appreciation of older cars and they have helped me with this and other problems. Richard Fritz, TC6649, Longmont Colorado USA  [b]From:[/b] i.thomson@talk21.com [mg-tabc][b]Sent:[/b] Monday, September 18, 2017 3:23 AM[b]To:[/b] mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com[b]Subject:[/b] [mg-tabc] alignment   RE:  "Checking front end only will not tell you if the rear wheels are "aligned" with front wheels." As the rear wheels are not adjustable it is immaterial - unless you are suggesting the chassis might be bent!  I get angry about these alignment places which try to sell me a " four wheel alignment " at increased cost when there is no adjustment on the rear end of the car I want checking anyway.  Not that I would take the TC, or any other wire wheeled car, to an alignment place anyway as there is no way they could cope.  If the rear is out of alignment it will just "crab" slightly on the road with no detriment to the tyres, and I doubt if this would be noticeable anyway.Ian ThomsonNotts. UK.   [img]https://ec.yimg.com/ec?url=https%3A%2F%2Fipmcdn.avast.com%2Fimages%2Ficons%2Ficon-envelope-tick-green-avg-v1.png&t=1522511771&sig=mkT8SgnJcY.eHQhiuVB_Fg--~D[/img]Virus-free. www.avg.com  

 

[ian thomson]

I have to disagree with both Fritz and Bill on this subject I am afraid. The fact that small movements can be made to the rear axle does not constitute an adjustment Fritz. It just means that the springs and/or the axle are not manufactured accurately enough. Yes, we should be aware of this feature and can maybe use it to our advantage but really it is indicative of a fault without which we would not have to be doing the adjustment at all. Sadly the poor manufacture of aftermarket rear springs often leads to this with some people even reporting that the locating pips are in the wrong position. I agree that the steering box may be slightly off centre while driving straight if the rear axle is not correctly aligned, always assuming that it was correctly centred in the first place. This would certainly lead to slightly more play at the wheel in the straight ahead position as the pin would be riding in a position where the scroll is slightly wider. However, I don t think that most people would notice a slight misalignment of the steering box as it is possible to set the box straight ahead correctly and compensate for this on the track rod. This can occur if, for instance, the drop arm/drag link is fitted wrongly on the splines. I myself have certainly done this. It would, however, affect the turning circle and perhaps lead to scrubbing of the tyre on the chassis one side on full lock if severe. I must take issue with your claim that there should be a little drag when set up in the straight ahead position though as this can lead to imprecise steering as the drag in the box works against you when steering straight. The correct way is to adjust for minimum clearance with NO drag. Bill, if the chassis is out of true the car will certainly tend crab but this will [u]not[/u] necessarily lead to the scrubbing of the tyres as if the wheels are aligned correctly they will simply stay parallel while the rear will adopt a track which is not exactly in line with the front. I expect there are lots of cars out there being used perfectly satisfactorily in this condition without the driver even being aware of it. I believe that it is the lack of understanding of the multitude of variable involved which leads, at least in part, to the poor reputation of the steering on our cars. If it was better understood perhaps we would not need to resort to foreign parts being fitted to correct faults which will still exist but are now being covered up by the use of a box which simply has slower steering. Please, please, please don t let this lead to yet another interminable discussion of the steering box where one opinion simply contradicts another. This is my opinion but it is based on the engineering discussion I have set out previously, and more. Opinions based on little more that they are opinions have all been aired just too often, and to little avail, in my opinion. Sorry if that sounds pompous and of course I will be willing to discuss anything based on engineering.

 

Regards

Ian Thomson

Notts. UK.

 

[b]From:[/b] Richard Fritz [mailto:RBFritz@comcast.net] [b]Sent:[/b] 18 September 2017 16:58 [b]To:[/b] i.thomson@talk21.com; Yahoogroups [b]Subject:[/b] Re: [mg-tabc] alignment

 

I have to disagree with the statement that the rear axle alignment is not adjustable.  It can be adjusted by loosening the bolts that anchor the springs.  I discovered this when my TC developed a very serious tendency to wander when travelling on a straight section of road.  Remember that the steering box should be set to drag very slightly at the straight ahead position; if the rear axle does not align perfectly with the front wheels, the steering rocker shaft will be off center on the cam when going straight ahead.  Fortunately, I have a very competent alignment shop that has a sympathetic appreciation of older cars and they have helped me with this and other problems.

 

Richard Fritz, TC6649, Longmont Colorado USA

 

 

[b]From:[/b] i.thomson@talk21.com%20[mg-tabc]

[b]Sent:[/b] Monday, September 18, 2017 3:23 AM

[b]To:[/b] mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com

[b]Subject:[/b] [mg-tabc] alignment

 

 

RE: "Checking front end only will not tell you if the rear wheels are "aligned" with front wheels."

As the rear wheels are not adjustable it is immaterial - unless you are suggesting the chassis might be bent!  I get angry about these alignment places which try to sell me a " four wheel alignment " at increased cost when there is no adjustment on the rear end of the car I want checking anyway.  Not that I would take the TC, or any other wire wheeled car, to an alignment place anyway as there is no way they could cope.  If the rear is out of alignment it will just "crab" slightly on the road with no detriment to the tyres, and I doubt if this would be noticeable anyway.

Ian Thomson

Notts. UK.

 

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[Benny Grumer]

Richard

Can you kindly describe more in details how the rear axle was aligned ?

Thanks

Benny

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[ian thomson]

Hi Ian,

Oops, looks like I will have to fall on my sword, made sense to me though. Thanks for setting me straight, should have paid more attention in class.

Bill TC 4926

-------------------

No need for that Bill.  The beauty of this list is that it is a way to learn from each other.  I frequent other MG forums and this is definitely the best, in my opinion.  In the interests of full disclosure, however, I have been mulling over what I said and though I generally stick by what I said I think there is a condition in which you may be right.  If the tracking is set correctly to the front of the chassis, though the rear of the chassis may be out enough to cause crabbing, the fact that the steering is now slightly off centre will bring the Ackerman angle into play.  Thus there will be slight scrubbing with the amount depending on the amount of deflection as the front wheels will not now be exactly parallel (or at least correctly aligned).  Once again, however, I believe that in most cases this would be so small as to be undectable.  This would be true of Fritz' case also.  Mea Culpa.

Regards

Ian

[Richard Fritz]

It appears that Thomson and I will continue to have differences of opinion.  If moving the position of the axle on the rear springs is "not an adjustment", then what is it?  I have owned TC6649 since 1952 and it still has its original axle and springs.  If they were "not manufactured accurately enough" why did the problem not show up until recently?   The statement about adjusting the peg-to-cam setting to a very minimal drag is exactly the procedure described by Jim Buell in his detailed treatise "The MG TC Front End", which I think is in the TABC files.  If there is even a minimal gap (no drag) the peg on the sector shaft will wander from side to side on the cam when trying to drive down a straight road.       Richard Fritz, TC6649, Colorado USA   [b]From:[/b] i.thomson@talk21.com [mg-tabc] [b]Sent:[/b] Monday, September 18, 2017 12:12 PM [b]To:[/b] mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [b]Subject:[/b] RE: [mg-tabc] alignment   I have to disagree with both Fritz and Bill on this subject I am afraid.  The fact that small movements can be made to the rear axle does not constitute an adjustment Fritz.  It just means that the springs and/or the axle are not manufactured accurately enough.  Yes, we should be aware of this feature and can maybe use it to our advantage but really it is indicative of a fault without which we would not have to be doing the adjustment at all. Sadly the poor manufacture of aftermarket rear springs often leads to this with some people even reporting that the locating pips are in the wrong position.  I agree that the steering box may be slightly off centre while driving straight if the rear axle is not correctly aligned, always assuming that it was correctly centred in the first place.  This would certainly lead to slightly more play at the wheel in the straight ahead position as the pin would be riding in a position where the scroll is slightly wider. However, I don t think that most people would notice a slight misalignment of the steering box as it is possible to set the box straight ahead correctly and compensate for this on the track rod.  This can occur if, for instance, the drop arm/drag link is fitted wrongly on the splines. I myself have certainly done this.  It would, however, affect the turning circle and perhaps lead to scrubbing of the tyre on the chassis one side on full lock if severe.  I must take issue with your claim that there should be a little drag when set up in the straight ahead position though as this can lead to imprecise steering as the drag in the box works against you when steering straight.  The correct way is to adjust for minimum clearance with NO drag.   Bill, if the chassis is out of true the car will certainly tend crab but this will [u]not[/u] necessarily lead to the scrubbing of the tyres as if the wheels are aligned correctly they will simply stay parallel while the rear will adopt a track which is not exactly in line with the front.  I expect there are lots of cars out there being used perfectly satisfactorily in this condition without the driver even being aware of it.  I believe that it is the lack of understanding of the multitude of variable involved  which leads, at least in part, to the poor reputation of the steering on our cars.  If it was better understood perhaps we would not need to resort to foreign parts being fitted to correct faults which will still exist but are now being covered up by the use of a box which simply has slower steering.  Please, please, please don t let this lead to yet another interminable discussion of the steering box where one opinion simply contradicts another.  This  is my opinion but it is based on the engineering discussion I have set out previously, and more.  Opinions based on little more that  they are opinions have all been aired just too often, and to little avail, in my opinion.  Sorry if that sounds pompous and of course I will be willing to discuss anything based on engineering.

Regards

Ian Thomson

Notts. UK.

[b]From:[/b] Richard Fritz [mailto:RBFritz@comcast.net] [b]Sent:[/b] 18 September 2017 16:58 [b]To:[/b] i.thomson@talk21.com; Yahoogroups [b]Subject:[/b] Re: [mg-tabc] alignment

I have to disagree with the statement that the rear axle alignment is not adjustable.  It can be adjusted by loosening the bolts that anchor the springs.  I discovered this when my TC developed a very serious tendency to wander when travelling on a straight section of road.  Remember that the steering box should be set to drag very slightly at the straight ahead position; if the rear axle does not align perfectly with the front wheels, the steering rocker shaft will be off center on the cam when going straight ahead.  Fortunately, I have a very competent alignment shop that has a sympathetic appreciation of older cars and they have helped me with this and other problems.

Richard Fritz, TC6649, Longmont Colorado USA

[b]From:[/b] i.thomson@talk21.com%20[mg-tabc]

[b]Sent:[/b] Monday, September 18, 2017 3:23 AM

[b]To:[/b] mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com

[b]Subject:[/b] [mg-tabc] alignment

 

RE: "Checking front end only will not tell you if the rear wheels are "aligned" with front wheels."

As the rear wheels are not adjustable it is immaterial - unless you are suggesting the chassis might be bent!  I get angry about these alignment places which try to sell me a " four wheel alignment " at increased cost when there is no adjustment on the rear end of the car I want checking anyway.  Not that I would take the TC, or any other wire wheeled car, to an alignment place anyway as there is no way they could cope.  If the rear is out of alignment it will just "crab" slightly on the road with no detriment to the tyres, and I doubt if this would be noticeable anyway.

Ian Thomson

Notts. UK.

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[Stephen D Stierman]

Call it adjustment or not, it makes not difference.  My car had a replacement spring on one side that was drilled incorrectly for the locating pin and that side had a shortened wheelbase.  I 'adjusted' this by welding up and redrilling a proper locating peg. About the cam and peg, yes the peg needs to be adjusted in the straight ahead position on the top of the cam, however none of these boxes will ever be free of some lost motion no matter how carefully you adjust and that goes for the boxes used in all cars of the period; TR, Morgan, Austin, etc. etc.  It is not this bit of lost motion that makes the car wander it is incorrect toe, damaged and worn suspension, damaged tires, or other mechanical problems due to age and lack of maintenance.  Set up properly a car will track fairly straight even with a bit of lost motion in the steering box.  Both my TC and Morgan are pretty good and they do have the typical bit of lost motion.  They aren't like the rack and pinion in my Miatas, but they will stay in a fairly straight line even with bias ply tires.SteveTC2911 [b]From:[/b] "'Richard Fritz' RBFritz@comcast.net [mg-tabc]" mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> [b]To:[/b] Ian Thomson i.thomson@talk21.com>; 'Yahoogroups' mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com> [b]Sent:[/b] Tuesday, September 19, 2017 11:35 PM [b]Subject:[/b] Re: [mg-tabc] alignment   It appears that Thomson and I will continue to have differences of opinion.  If moving the position of the axle on the rear springs is "not an adjustment", then what is it?  I have owned TC6649 since 1952 and it still has its original axle and springs.  If they were "not manufactured accurately enough" why did the problem not show up until recently?   The statement about adjusting the peg-to-cam setting to a very minimal drag is exactly the procedure described by Jim Buell in his detailed treatise "The MG TC Front End", which I think is in the TABC files.  If there is even a minimal gap (no drag) the peg on the sector shaft will wander from side to side on the cam when trying to drive down a straight road.       Richard Fritz, TC6649, Colorado USA   [b]From:[/b] i.thomson@talk21.com%20[mg-tabc] [b]Sent:[/b] Monday, September 18, 2017 12:12 PM [b]To:[/b] mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [b]Subject:[/b] RE: [mg-tabc] alignment   I have to disagree with both Fritz and Bill on this subject I am afraid.  The fact that small movements can be made to the rear axle does not constitute an adjustment Fritz.  It just means that the springs and/or the axle are not manufactured accurately enough.  Yes, we should be aware of this feature and can maybe use it to our advantage but really it is indicative of a fault without which we would not have to be doing the adjustment at all. Sadly the poor manufacture of aftermarket rear springs often leads to this with some people even reporting that the locating pips are in the wrong position.  I agree that the steering box may be slightly off centre while driving straight if the rear axle is not correctly aligned, always assuming that it was correctly centred in the first place.  This would certainly lead to slightly more play at the wheel in the straight ahead position as the pin would be riding in a position where the scroll is slightly wider. However, I don t think that most people would notice a slight misalignment of the steering box as it is possible to set the box straight ahead correctly and compensate for this on the track rod.  This can occur if, for instance, the drop arm/drag link is fitted wrongly on the splines. I myself have certainly done this.  It would, however, affect the turning circle and perhaps lead to scrubbing of the tyre on the chassis one side on full lock if severe.  I must take issue with your claim that there should be a little drag when set up in the straight ahead position though as this can lead to imprecise steering as the drag in the box works against you when steering straight.  The correct way is to adjust for minimum clearance with NO drag.   Bill, if the chassis is out of true the car will certainly tend crab but this will [u]not[/u] necessarily lead to the scrubbing of the tyres as if the wheels are aligned correctly they will simply stay parallel while the rear will adopt a track which is not exactly in line with the front.  I expect there are lots of cars out there being used perfectly satisfactorily in this condition without the driver even being aware of it.  I believe that it is the lack of understanding of the multitude of variable involved  which leads, at least in part, to the poor reputation of the steering on our cars.  If it was better understood perhaps we would not need to resort to foreign parts being fitted to correct faults which will still exist but are now being covered up by the use of a box which simply has slower steering.  Please, please, please don t let this lead to yet another interminable discussion of the steering box where one opinion simply contradicts another.  This  is my opinion but it is based on the engineering discussion I have set out previously, and more.  Opinions based on little more that  they are opinions have all been aired just too often, and to little avail, in my opinion.  Sorry if that sounds pompous and of course I will be willing to discuss anything based on engineering. Regards Ian Thomson Notts. UK. [b]From:[/b] Richard Fritz [mailto:RBFritz@comcast.net] [b]Sent:[/b] 18 September 2017 16:58 [b]To:[/b] i.thomson@talk21.com; Yahoogroups [b]Subject:[/b] Re: [mg-tabc] alignment I have to disagree with the statement that the rear axle alignment is not adjustable.  It can be adjusted by loosening the bolts that anchor the springs.  I discovered this when my TC developed a very serious tendency to wander when travelling on a straight section of road.  Remember that the steering box should be set to drag very slightly at the straight ahead position; if the rear axle does not align perfectly with the front wheels, the steering rocker shaft will be off center on the cam when going straight ahead.  Fortunately, I have a very competent alignment shop that has a sympathetic appreciation of older cars and they have helped me with this and other problems. Richard Fritz, TC6649, Longmont Colorado USA [b]From:[/b] i.thomson@talk21.com%20[mg-tabc] [b]Sent:[/b] Monday, September 18, 2017 3:23 AM [b]To:[/b] mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [b]Subject:[/b] [mg-tabc] alignment   RE: "Checking front end only will not tell you if the rear wheels are "aligned" with front wheels." As the rear wheels are not adjustable it is immaterial - unless you are suggesting the chassis might be bent!  I get angry about these alignment places which try to sell me a " four wheel alignment " at increased cost when there is no adjustment on the rear end of the car I want checking anyway.  Not that I would take the TC, or any other wire wheeled car, to an alignment place anyway as there is no way they could cope.  If the rear is out of alignment it will just "crab" slightly on the road with no detriment to the tyres, and I doubt if this would be noticeable anyway. Ian Thomson Notts. UK. 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[Duncan]

While front end alignment and maintenance of links, etc. are all important to straight ahead steering, as Stephen brings up, the BC box originally did have a feature built into it to help avoid wandering. Apparently some of the replacement worms over the years failed to incorporate the "straight ahead" feature. Essentially, the depth of the groove where the sector shaft peg runs should become shallower at straight ahead. That causes the sector shaft to run higher than normal (at straight ahead) and slightly rub against the top plate. Bench adjustment procedure for the BC box has you first adjusting the ball bearing end play through the shims at the end plate, and then adjusting the top plate shims until a very slight drag can be noted at straight ahead, only. If a BC box has an aftermarket worm that was not machined correctly, there will be no shallower groove at straight ahead, and so no drag. I imagine people with those aftermarket worms adjust for slight drag throughout the range, using either the shimmed plate or the Tompkins kit, and go for adjusting for the least lost motion; but they get no assistance from the BC box to "steady" straight ahead driving. Or maybe all the newer worms lack the feature? Hard to tell, as nobody ever talks about it, including the people selling the worms. ttypes.org/ttt2 ran an article of the little known complexities of the BC Box in Issue 26, October 2014 which goes into detail, and has good drawings to explain. Also it gives a warning to anyone using the Tompkins kit with an old or original sector shaft. http://ttypes.org/ttt2/?s=bc+steering&submit=Search Or search there for "bc steering" Duncan- TC9866 California --------------------------------------------

On Wed, 9/20/17, Stephen D Stierman morgan7709@sbcglobal.net [mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> wrote: Subject: Re: [mg-tabc] alignment To: "Richard Fritz" RBFritz@comcast.net>, "Ian Thomson" i.thomson@talk21.com>, "'Yahoogroups'" mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com> Date: Wednesday, September 20, 2017, 3:19 AM Call it adjustment or not, it makes not difference. My car had a replacement spring on one side that was drilled incorrectly for the locating pin and that side had a shortened wheelbase. I 'adjusted' this by welding up and redrilling a proper locating peg. About the cam and peg, yes the peg needs to be adjusted in the straight ahead position on the top of the cam, however none of these boxes will ever be free of some lost motion no matter how carefully you adjust and that goes for the boxes used in all cars of the period; TR, Morgan, Austin, etc. etc. It is not this bit of lost motion that makes the car wander it is incorrect toe, damaged and worn suspension, damaged tires, or other mechanical problems due to age and lack of maintenance. Set up properly a car will track fairly straight even with a bit of lost motion in the steering box. Both my TC and Morgan are pretty good and they do have the typical bit of lost motion. They aren't like the rack and pinion in my Miatas, but they will stay in a fairly straight line even with bias ply tires.SteveTC2911 From: "'Richard Fritz' RBFritz@comcast.net [mg-tabc]" mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> To: Ian Thomson i.thomson@talk21.com>; 'Yahoogroups' mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2017 11:35 PM Subject: Re: [mg-tabc] alignment It appears that Thomson and I will continue to have differences of opinion. If moving the position of the axle on the rear springs is "not an adjustment", then what is it? I have owned TC6649 since 1952 and it still has its original axle and springs. If they were "not manufactured accurately enough" why did the problem not show up until recently? The statement about adjusting the peg-to-cam setting to a very minimal drag is exactly the procedure described by Jim Buell in his detailed treatise "The MG TC Front End", which I think is in the TABC files. If there is even a minimal gap (no drag) the peg on the sector shaft will wander from side to side on the cam when trying to drive down a straight road. Richard Fritz, TC6649, Colorado USA From: 'Ian Thomson' i.thomson@talk21.com [mg-tabc] Sent: Monday, September 18, 2017 12:12 PM To: 'Yahoogroups' Subject: RE: [mg-tabc] alignment I have to disagree with both Fritz and Bill on this subject I am afraid. The fact that small movements can be made to the rear axle does not constitute an adjustment Fritz. It just means that the springs and/or the axle are not manufactured accurately enough. Yes, we should be aware of this feature and can maybe use it to our advantage but really it is indicative of a fault without which we would not have to be doing the adjustment at all. Sadly the poor manufacture of aftermarket rear springs often leads to this with some people even reporting that the locating pips are in the wrong position. I agree that the steering box may be slightly off centre while driving straight if the rear axle is not correctly aligned, always assuming that it was correctly centred in the first place. This would certainly lead to slightly more play at the wheel in the straight ahead position as the pin would be riding in a position where the scroll is slightly wider. However, I don t think that most people would notice a slight misalignment of the steering box as it is possible to set the box straight ahead correctly and compensate for this on the track rod. This can occur if, for instance, the drop arm/drag link is fitted wrongly on the splines. I myself have certainly done this. It would, however, affect the turning circle and perhaps lead to scrubbing of the tyre on the chassis one side on full lock if severe. I must take issue with your claim that there should be a little drag when set up in the straight ahead position though as this can lead to imprecise steering as the drag in the box works against you when steering straight. The correct way is to adjust for minimum clearance with NO drag. Bill, if the chassis is out of true the car will certainly tend crab but this will not necessarily lead to the scrubbing of the tyres as if the wheels are aligned correctly they will simply stay parallel while the rear will adopt a track which is not exactly in line with the front. I expect there are lots of cars out there being used perfectly satisfactorily in this condition without the driver even being aware of it. I believe that it is the lack of understanding of the multitude of variable involved which leads, at least in part, to the poor reputation of the steering on our cars. If it was better understood perhaps we would not need to resort to foreign parts being fitted to correct faults which will still exist but are now being covered up by the use of a box which simply has slower steering. Please, please, please don t let this lead to yet another interminable discussion of the steering box where one opinion simply contradicts another. This is my opinion but it is based on the engineering discussion I have set out previously, and more. Opinions based on little more that they are opinions have all been aired just too often, and to little avail, in my opinion. Sorry if that sounds pompous and of course I will be willing to discuss anything based on engineering. Regards Ian Thomson Notts. UK.