nklr- weird choices
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Norm Keller
- Posts: 712
- Joined: Thu Apr 01, 2004 7:48 am
balancer shaft bearing failure 2013
#ygrps-yiv-880895636 blockquote.ygrps-yiv-880895636cite {margin-left:5px;margin-right:0px;padding-left:10px;padding-right:0px;border-left:1px solid #cccccc;} #ygrps-yiv-880895636 blockquote.ygrps-yiv-880895636cite2 {margin-left:5px;margin-right:0px;padding-left:10px;padding-right:0px;border-left:1px solid #cccccc;margin-top:3px;padding-top:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-880895636 .ygrps-yiv-880895636plain pre, #ygrps-yiv-880895636 .ygrps-yiv-880895636plain tt {font-family:monospace;font-size:100%;font-weight:normal;font-style:normal;} #ygrps-yiv-880895636 a img {border:0px;}#ygrps-yiv-880895636 {font-family:Tahoma;font-size:12pt;} #ygrps-yiv-880895636 .ygrps-yiv-880895636plain pre, #ygrps-yiv-880895636 .ygrps-yiv-880895636plain tt {font-family:Tahoma;font-size:12pt;} Here's a photo of the rear balancer shaft bearing on a friend's 2013 which just got back from Florida, Texas, Arizona and California. The bearing cage came apart on his way to Vancouver Island so the bike is here. I pulled it apart as quickly as possible so as to assess damage before we drive him to the ferry.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/u1388xqlwh...aring.jpg?dl=0
Is there anything anyone wants to have confirmed or shown while I'm doing the replacement? (Tom?)
I think this failure should be officially named "The Tom Trauma" in honor of the man who has done the most to publicize the failure.[img]https://ec.yimg.com/ec?url=http%3A%2F%2 ... rFlF4A--~E[/img]
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Norm Keller
- Posts: 712
- Joined: Thu Apr 01, 2004 7:48 am
balancer shaft bearing failure 2013
#ygrps-yiv-1914325176 blockquote.ygrps-yiv-1914325176cite {margin-left:5px;margin-right:0px;padding-left:10px;padding-right:0px;border-left:1px solid #cccccc;} #ygrps-yiv-1914325176 blockquote.ygrps-yiv-1914325176cite2 {margin-left:5px;margin-right:0px;padding-left:10px;padding-right:0px;border-left:1px solid #cccccc;margin-top:3px;padding-top:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-1914325176 .ygrps-yiv-1914325176plain pre, #ygrps-yiv-1914325176 .ygrps-yiv-1914325176plain tt {font-family:monospace;font-size:100%;font-weight:normal;font-style:normal;} #ygrps-yiv-1914325176 a img {border:0px;}#ygrps-yiv-1914325176 {font-family:Tahoma;font-size:12pt;} #ygrps-yiv-1914325176 .ygrps-yiv-1914325176plain pre, #ygrps-yiv-1914325176 .ygrps-yiv-1914325176plain tt {font-family:Tahoma;font-size:12pt;} There's more here: http://www.klrforum.com/showthread.php?p=381658&posted=1#post381658 I made a pair of eccentric inserts which fit into the bearing ball races, then turn to lock. Using a 5 pound slide hammer, the bearing will not pull so time to reassess. I'm feeling that doing a freebie repair which requires splitting the cases is no longer something I'm interested in doing so off to get a couple of estimates from shops, then will let him decide.7 Then lastly: Can't stand giving up on a problem so think will have a go at it by heating the case (in the bike = hot air guns) + running a bead around the part of the outer ball race which is clear of the balls + hitting the race with cooling spray, then the eccentrics and slide hammer. If it comes out, hard to say if will be able to install the new one but that would be problem #2. Otherwise a friend will do it at his shop by stripping the cases, heating and hydraulic press.
Can anyone recall whether the bearing has to go to the inside to remove? It looks clear to the outside of the bearing bore and absolutely don't recall which way we pushed the bearings when doing them all. Two of my bike tech friends who have been in the business for 25 - 35 years can't advise. Only one has ever opened KLR cases, and that to do crank bearings. Not a bad record for KLR. When I'm looking at vehicles, the best news is when the transmission shops have never seen one apart. 
I'd like to offer a solution which avoids opening the cases because that would change the solution hugely for anyone. Labor to do the bearing is $500 - $900 depending on the shop. If it can be changed without pulling then engine then an easy few hours at home so it might be worth switching the bearing as a precaution on older bikes.
I'd like to offer a solution which avoids opening the cases because that would change the solution hugely for anyone. Labor to do the bearing is $500 - $900 depending on the shop. If it can be changed without pulling then engine then an easy few hours at home so it might be worth switching the bearing as a precaution on older bikes. -
Jeff Saline
- Posts: 2246
- Joined: Fri Oct 10, 2003 6:02 pm
balancer shaft bearing failure 2013
#ygrps-yiv-2117793152 .ygrps-yiv-2117793152ygrp-photo-title { TEXT-ALIGN:center;WIDTH:75px;HEIGHT:15px;CLEAR:both;FONT-SIZE:smaller;OVERFLOW:hidden;} #ygrps-yiv-2117793152 DIV.ygrps-yiv-2117793152ygrp-photo { BORDER-BOTTOM:black 1px solid;BORDER-LEFT:black 1px solid;BACKGROUND-COLOR:white;WIDTH:62px;BACKGROUND-REPEAT:no-repeat;BACKGROUND-POSITION:center 50%;HEIGHT:62px;BORDER-TOP:black 1px solid;BORDER-RIGHT:black 1px solid;} #ygrps-yiv-2117793152 DIV.ygrps-yiv-2117793152photo-title A { TEXT-DECORATION:none;} #ygrps-yiv-2117793152 DIV.ygrps-yiv-2117793152photo-title A:active { TEXT-DECORATION:none;} #ygrps-yiv-2117793152 DIV.ygrps-yiv-2117793152photo-title A:hover { TEXT-DECORATION:none;} #ygrps-yiv-2117793152 DIV.ygrps-yiv-2117793152photo-title A:visited { TEXT-DECORATION:none;} #ygrps-yiv-2117793152 DIV.ygrps-yiv-2117793152attach-table DIV.ygrps-yiv-2117793152attach-row { CLEAR:both;} #ygrps-yiv-2117793152 DIV.ygrps-yiv-2117793152attach-table DIV.ygrps-yiv-2117793152attach-row DIV { FLOAT:left;} #ygrps-yiv-2117793152 P { PADDING-BOTTOM:3px;PADDING-LEFT:0px;PADDING-RIGHT:0px;CLEAR:both;OVERFLOW:hidden;PADDING-TOP:15px;} #ygrps-yiv-2117793152 DIV.ygrps-yiv-2117793152ygrp-file { WIDTH:30px;} #ygrps-yiv-2117793152 DIV.ygrps-yiv-2117793152attach-table DIV.ygrps-yiv-2117793152attach-row DIV DIV A { TEXT-DECORATION:none;} #ygrps-yiv-2117793152 DIV.ygrps-yiv-2117793152attach-table DIV.ygrps-yiv-2117793152attach-row DIV DIV SPAN { FONT-WEIGHT:normal;} #ygrps-yiv-2117793152 DIV.ygrps-yiv-2117793152ygrp-file-title { FONT-WEIGHT:bold;} #ygrps-yiv-2117793152 BLOCKQUOTE.ygrps-yiv-2117793152cite { BORDER-LEFT:#cccccc 1px solid;PADDING-LEFT:10px;PADDING-RIGHT:0px;MARGIN-LEFT:5px;MARGIN-RIGHT:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-2117793152 BLOCKQUOTE.ygrps-yiv-2117793152cite2 { BORDER-LEFT:#cccccc 1px solid;MARGIN-TOP:3px;PADDING-LEFT:10px;PADDING-RIGHT:0px;MARGIN-LEFT:5px;MARGIN-RIGHT:0px;PADDING-TOP:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-2117793152 .ygrps-yiv-2117793152plain PRE { FONT-STYLE:normal;FONT-FAMILY:monospace;FONT-SIZE:100%;FONT-WEIGHT:normal;} #ygrps-yiv-2117793152 .ygrps-yiv-2117793152plain TT { FONT-STYLE:normal;FONT-FAMILY:monospace;FONT-SIZE:100%;FONT-WEIGHT:normal;} #ygrps-yiv-2117793152 A IMG { BORDER-BOTTOM:0px;BORDER-LEFT:0px;BORDER-TOP:0px;BORDER-RIGHT:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-2117793152 { FONT-FAMILY:Tahoma;FONT-SIZE:12pt;} #ygrps-yiv-2117793152 .ygrps-yiv-2117793152plain PRE { FONT-FAMILY:Tahoma;FONT-SIZE:12pt;} #ygrps-yiv-2117793152 .ygrps-yiv-2117793152plain TT { FONT-FAMILY:Tahoma;FONT-SIZE:12pt;} On Tue, 03 Feb 2015 01:21:11 +0000 "'Norm Keller' normkel32@... [DSN_KLR650]" DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com> writes: There's more here: http://www.klrforum.com/showthread.php?p=381658&posted=1#post381658
I made a pair of eccentric inserts which fit into the bearing ball races, then turn to lock. Using a 5 pound slide hammer, the bearing will not pull so time to reassess. I'm feeling that doing a freebie repair which requires splitting the cases is no longer something I'm interested in doing so off to get a couple of estimates from shops, then will let him decide.7
Then lastly:
Can't stand giving up on a problem so think will have a go at it by heating the case (in the bike = hot air guns) + running a bead around the part of the outer ball race which is clear of the balls + hitting the race with cooling spray, then the eccentrics and slide hammer. If it comes out, hard to say if will be able to install the new one but that would be problem #2. Otherwise a friend will do it at his shop by stripping the cases, heating and hydraulic press. Can anyone recall whether the bearing has to go to the inside to remove? It looks clear to the outside of the bearing bore and absolutely don't recall which way we pushed the bearings when doing them all. Two of my bike tech friends who have been in the business for 25 - 35 years can't advise. Only one has ever opened KLR cases, and that to do crank bearings. Not a bad record for KLR. When I'm looking at vehicles, the best news is when the transmission shops have never seen one apart. I'd like to offer a solution which avoids opening the cases because that would change the solution hugely for anyone. Labor to do the bearing is $500 - $900 depending on the shop. If it can be changed without pulling then engine then an easy few hours at home so it might be worth switching the bearing as a precaution on older bikes.
<><><><><><><> <><><><><><><> Norm, I haven't done this work but from a quick look in the Clymers manual and also the factory manual suggest the bearing is installed from the inside of the case. The bearing is also installed with the manufactures markings facing into the case. Wondering if using eccentrics would tend to expand the outer race enough to make it bind. I think removing the balancer shaft would allow the balancer weight inside the case to fall and if not fall it might still be very tough to reinstall the shaft with correct timing to the weight. I think this is a split the case situation but that is just a guess on my part. Good luck,
Jeff Saline
The Beautiful Black Hills of South Dakota
75 R90/6, 03 KLR650
. . . . . . . . . .
____________________________________________________________
Fast, Secure, NetZero 4G Mobile Broadband. Try it.
I'd like to offer a solution which avoids opening the cases because that would change the solution hugely for anyone. Labor to do the bearing is $500 - $900 depending on the shop. If it can be changed without pulling then engine then an easy few hours at home so it might be worth switching the bearing as a precaution on older bikes.
<><><><><><><> <><><><><><><> Norm, I haven't done this work but from a quick look in the Clymers manual and also the factory manual suggest the bearing is installed from the inside of the case. The bearing is also installed with the manufactures markings facing into the case. Wondering if using eccentrics would tend to expand the outer race enough to make it bind. I think removing the balancer shaft would allow the balancer weight inside the case to fall and if not fall it might still be very tough to reinstall the shaft with correct timing to the weight. I think this is a split the case situation but that is just a guess on my part. Good luck,
Jeff Saline
The Beautiful Black Hills of South Dakota
75 R90/6, 03 KLR650
. . . . . . . . . .
____________________________________________________________
Fast, Secure, NetZero 4G Mobile Broadband. Try it. -
Norm Keller
- Posts: 712
- Joined: Thu Apr 01, 2004 7:48 am
balancer shaft bearing failure 2013
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We often found ways to beat the flat rate by large margins through innovation when I was wrenching on cars and there are many short cuts which work well on bikes as you know- hoping to find one here. Manuals usually consider hand tools as the only means to deal with repairs so if one can weld to a bearing or use other innovations, sometimes the time can be cut hugely. Replacing the starter clutch on an old Honda CB500 can be done without splitting the cases as the manuals suggest. The job goes from 8 or 9 hours flat rate to an hour or two "fat and old rate". I haven't tried to shift the balancer shaft to the right but should check for the presence of a snap ring as it might be possible to move the shaft inward enough to clear the inner race. In that case the inner race could be shifted radially to drop out the balls which would allow easier welding of the ball groove on the outer bearing. One big worry is, as you suggest, the balance weight as can't recall whether that's located by a snap ring. If so the shaft wont move but if not perhaps the weight can be placed onto the spline out of time? Likely best to concentrate on leaving the shaft where it is to extract the bearing. A friend is coming over to give a second opinion to best get the bike into the center of the garage. ------ Original Message ------ From: "Jeff Saline" To: normkel32@... Cc: DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com Sent: 2015-02-02 5:53:48 PM Subject: Re: [DSN_KLR650] Balancer shaft bearing failure 2013
On Tue, 03 Feb 2015 01:21:11 +0000 "'Norm Keller' normkel32@... [DSN_KLR650]" DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com> writes: There's more here: http://www.klrforum.com/showthread.php?p=381658&posted=1#post381658 I made a pair of eccentric inserts which fit into the bearing ball races, then turn to lock. Using a 5 pound slide hammer, the bearing will not pull so time to reassess. I'm feeling that doing a freebie repair which requires splitting the cases is no longer something I'm interested in doing so off to get a couple of estimates from shops, then will let him decide.7 Then lastly: Can't stand giving up on a problem so think will have a go at it by heating the case (in the bike = hot air guns) + running a bead around the part of the outer ball race which is clear of the balls + hitting the race with cooling spray, then the eccentrics and slide hammer. If it comes out, hard to say if will be able to install the new one but that would be problem #2. Otherwise a friend will do it at his shop by stripping the cases, heating and hydraulic press. Can anyone recall whether the bearing has to go to the inside to remove? It looks clear to the outside of the bearing bore and absolutely don't recall which way we pushed the bearings when doing them all. Two of my bike tech friends who have been in the business for 25 - 35 years can't advise. Only one has ever opened KLR cases, and that to do crank bearings. Not a bad record for KLR. When I'm looking at vehicles, the best news is when the transmission shops have never seen one apart.
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Jeff Saline
- Posts: 2246
- Joined: Fri Oct 10, 2003 6:02 pm
balancer shaft bearing failure 2013
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#ygrps-yiv-655416939x463906dcd39f400284cc10d23b80a08a { FONT-FAMILY:Tahoma;FONT-SIZE:12pt;} Norm, I get it about being able to beat flat-rate times. Unfortunately I don't think this is going to be one of the sequences it is going to work. Probably have to beat them on the case work and the engine R&R in the frame. The factory manual says "Prior to putting the rear balancer shaft into the crankcase, be sure to install the washer and circlip." Looking at diagrams and pictures it looks like if the balancer shaft is pulled out the thickness of the right bearing (if it can be pulled out that far) the washer would not be secured. The factory manual also says "Rear balancer weight and shaft must be installed before the crankcase is assembled." In the Clymers manual line drawing of the Engine Balancer it looks like the left bearing has a step. That would make sense if installed from the inside with no locating/bearing area indicated from the outside to hold the bearing location. It'll be interesting to hear what you discover/do. One last thought... Maybe try tapping on the outer race moving inwards. If the race moves it suggests that is the direction from which it was installed. I don't know if there is room for the bearing to move in the assembly or not. I'm betting not as it wouldn't be a good design to allow the weight to slide on the balancer shaft. I think that would also allow the shaft to slide and move in the right bearing inner race. Best,
Jeff Saline
The Beautiful Black Hills of South Dakota
75 R90/6, 03 KLR650
On Tue, 03 Feb 2015 02:40:12 +0000 "Norm Keller" writes:
The manuals and flat rate books show this as a split case job but hoping to find a way. We often found ways to beat the flat rate by large margins through innovation when I was wrenching on cars and there are many short cuts which work well on bikes as you know- hoping to find one here. Manuals usually consider hand tools as the only means to deal with repairs so if one can weld to a bearing or use other innovations, sometimes the time can be cut hugely. Replacing the starter clutch on an old Honda CB500 can be done without splitting the cases as the manuals suggest. The job goes from 8 or 9 hours flat rate to an hour or two "fat and old rate". I haven't tried to shift the balancer shaft to the right but should check for the presence of a snap ring as it might be possible to move the shaft inward enough to clear the inner race. In that case the inner race could be shifted radially to drop out the balls which would allow easier welding of the ball groove on the outer bearing. One big worry is, as you suggest, the balance weight as can't recall whether that's located by a snap ring. If so the shaft wont move but if not perhaps the weight can be placed onto the spline out of time? Likely best to concentrate on leaving the shaft where it is to extract the bearing. A friend is coming over to give a second opinion to best get the bike into the center of the garage.
------ Original Message ------
From: "Jeff Saline"
To: normkel32@...
Cc: DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 2015-02-02 5:53:48 PM
Subject: Re: [DSN_KLR650] Balancer shaft bearing failure 2013
On Tue, 03 Feb 2015 01:21:11 +0000 "'Norm Keller' normkel32@... [DSN_KLR650]" DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com> writes: There's more here: http://www.klrforum.com/showthread.php?p=381658&posted=1#post381658
I made a pair of eccentric inserts which fit into the bearing ball races, then turn to lock. Using a 5 pound slide hammer, the bearing will not pull so time to reassess. I'm feeling that doing a freebie repair which requires splitting the cases is no longer something I'm interested in doing so off to get a couple of estimates from shops, then will let him decide.7
Then lastly:
Can't stand giving up on a problem so think will have a go at it by heating the case (in the bike = hot air guns) + running a bead around the part of the outer ball race which is clear of the balls + hitting the race with cooling spray, then the eccentrics and slide hammer. If it comes out, hard to say if will be able to install the new one but that would be problem #2. Otherwise a friend will do it at his shop by stripping the cases, heating and hydraulic press. Can anyone recall whether the bearing has to go to the inside to remove? It looks clear to the outside of the bearing bore and absolutely don't recall which way we pushed the bearings when doing them all. Two of my bike tech friends who have been in the business for 25 - 35 years can't advise. Only one has ever opened KLR cases, and that to do crank bearings. Not a bad record for KLR. When I'm looking at vehicles, the best news is when the transmission shops have never seen one apart. I'd like to offer a solution which avoids opening the cases because that would change the solution hugely for anyone. Labor to do the bearing is $500 - $900 depending on the shop. If it can be changed without pulling then engine then an easy few hours at home so it might be worth switching the bearing as a precaution on older bikes.
<><><><><><><>
<><><><><><><> Norm, I haven't done this work but from a quick look in the Clymers manual and also the factory manual suggest the bearing is installed from the inside of the case. The bearing is also installed with the manufactures markings facing into the case. Wondering if using eccentrics would tend to expand the outer race enough to make it bind. I think removing the balancer shaft would allow the balancer weight inside the case to fall and if not fall it might still be very tough to reinstall the shaft with correct timing to the weight. I think this is a split the case situation but that is just a guess on my part. Good luck, Jeff Saline
The Beautiful Black Hills of South Dakota
75 R90/6, 03 KLR650 .
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.
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. .
____________________________________________________________
[b]How Old Men Tighten Skin[/b]
63 Year Old Man Shares DIY Skin Tightening Method You Can Do From Home
healthylivinglifeguide.com
I'd like to offer a solution which avoids opening the cases because that would change the solution hugely for anyone. Labor to do the bearing is $500 - $900 depending on the shop. If it can be changed without pulling then engine then an easy few hours at home so it might be worth switching the bearing as a precaution on older bikes.
<><><><><><><>
<><><><><><><> Norm, I haven't done this work but from a quick look in the Clymers manual and also the factory manual suggest the bearing is installed from the inside of the case. The bearing is also installed with the manufactures markings facing into the case. Wondering if using eccentrics would tend to expand the outer race enough to make it bind. I think removing the balancer shaft would allow the balancer weight inside the case to fall and if not fall it might still be very tough to reinstall the shaft with correct timing to the weight. I think this is a split the case situation but that is just a guess on my part. Good luck, Jeff Saline
The Beautiful Black Hills of South Dakota
75 R90/6, 03 KLR650 .
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
. .
____________________________________________________________
[b]How Old Men Tighten Skin[/b]
63 Year Old Man Shares DIY Skin Tightening Method You Can Do From Home
healthylivinglifeguide.com-
Norm Keller
- Posts: 712
- Joined: Thu Apr 01, 2004 7:48 am
balancer shaft bearing failure 2013
#ygrps-yiv-803731987 blockquote.ygrps-yiv-803731987cite {margin-left:5px;margin-right:0px;padding-left:10px;padding-right:0px;border-left:1px solid #cccccc;} #ygrps-yiv-803731987 blockquote.ygrps-yiv-803731987cite2 {margin-left:5px;margin-right:0px;padding-left:10px;padding-right:0px;border-left:1px solid #cccccc;margin-top:3px;padding-top:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-803731987 .ygrps-yiv-803731987plain pre, #ygrps-yiv-803731987 .ygrps-yiv-803731987plain tt {font-family:monospace;font-size:100%;font-weight:normal;font-style:normal;} #ygrps-yiv-803731987 a img {border:0px;}#ygrps-yiv-803731987 {font-family:Tahoma;font-size:12pt;} #ygrps-yiv-803731987 .ygrps-yiv-803731987plain pre, #ygrps-yiv-803731987 .ygrps-yiv-803731987plain tt {font-family:Tahoma;font-size:12pt;} #ygrps-yiv-803731987 #ygrps-yiv-803731987x85dc002de0864af4b052db3b9b181291 BLOCKQUOTE.ygrps-yiv-803731987cite {PADDING-LEFT:10px;MARGIN-LEFT:5px;BORDER-LEFT:#cccccc 1px solid;PADDING-RIGHT:0px;MARGIN-RIGHT:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-803731987 #ygrps-yiv-803731987x85dc002de0864af4b052db3b9b181291 BLOCKQUOTE.ygrps-yiv-803731987cite2 {PADDING-TOP:0px;PADDING-LEFT:10px;MARGIN-LEFT:5px;BORDER-LEFT:#cccccc 1px solid;MARGIN-TOP:3px;PADDING-RIGHT:0px;MARGIN-RIGHT:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-803731987 #ygrps-yiv-803731987x85dc002de0864af4b052db3b9b181291 .ygrps-yiv-803731987plain PRE, #ygrps-yiv-803731987 #ygrps-yiv-803731987x85dc002de0864af4b052db3b9b181291 .ygrps-yiv-803731987plain TT {FONT-SIZE:100%;FONT-FAMILY:monospace;FONT-WEIGHT:normal;FONT-STYLE:normal;} #ygrps-yiv-803731987 #ygrps-yiv-803731987x85dc002de0864af4b052db3b9b181291 A IMG {BORDER-TOP:0px;BORDER-RIGHT:0px;BORDER-BOTTOM:0px;BORDER-LEFT:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-803731987 #ygrps-yiv-803731987x85dc002de0864af4b052db3b9b181291 .ygrps-yiv-803731987plain PRE, #ygrps-yiv-803731987 #ygrps-yiv-803731987x85dc002de0864af4b052db3b9b181291 .ygrps-yiv-803731987plain TT, #ygrps-yiv-803731987 #ygrps-yiv-803731987x85dc002de0864af4b052db3b9b181291 {FONT-SIZE:12pt;FONT-FAMILY:Tahoma;} It's a no-go without opening up the cases. There is a tiny lip/ridge at the outside of the balancer bearing bore which finally were able to detect behind the chipped out area of the bearing race. I could just manage to catch it with a hooked "O" ring pick so that tells the tale. It's small enough to be under the fillet curve of the bearing race but no way the bearing will come to the outside. That at least is settled. Too bad as hoped for a simpler solution although am not surprised that they were not relying only on the shaft and interference fit to locate the bearing. ------ Original Message ------ From: "Jeff Saline" To: normkel32@... Cc: DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com Sent: 2015-02-02 7:11:24 PM Subject: Re: [DSN_KLR650] Balancer shaft bearing failure 2013
Norm, I get it about being able to beat flat-rate times. Unfortunately I don't think this is going to be one of the sequences it is going to work. Probably have to beat them on the case work and the engine R&R in the frame. The factory manual says "Prior to putting the rear balancer shaft into the crankcase, be sure to install the washer and circlip." Looking at diagrams and pictures it looks like if the balancer shaft is pulled out the thickness of the right bearing (if it can be pulled out that far) the washer would not be secured. The factory manual also says "Rear balancer weight and shaft must be installed before the crankcase is assembled." In the Clymers manual line drawing of the Engine Balancer it looks like the left bearing has a step. That would make sense if installed from the inside with no locating/bearing area indicated from the outside to hold the bearing location. It'll be interesting to hear what you discover/do. One last thought... Maybe try tapping on the outer race moving inwards. If the race moves it suggests that is the direction from which it was installed. I don't know if there is room for the bearing to move in the assembly or not. I'm betting not as it wouldn't be a good design to allow the weight to slide on the balancer shaft. I think that would also allow the shaft to slide and move in the right bearing inner race. Best, Jeff Saline The Beautiful Black Hills of South Dakota 75 R90/6, 03 KLR650 On Tue, 03 Feb 2015 02:40:12 +0000 "Norm Keller" writes: The manuals and flat rate books show this as a split case job but hoping to find a way. We often found ways to beat the flat rate by large margins through innovation when I was wrenching on cars and there are many short cuts which work well on bikes as you know- hoping to find one here. Manuals usually consider hand tools as the only means to deal with repairs so if one can weld to a bearing or use other innovations, sometimes the time can be cut hugely. Replacing the starter clutch on an old Honda CB500 can be done without splitting the cases as the manuals suggest. The job goes from 8 or 9 hours flat rate to an hour or two "fat and old rate". I haven't tried to shift the balancer shaft to the right but should check for the presence of a snap ring as it might be possible to move the shaft inward enough to clear the inner race. In that case the inner race could be shifted radially to drop out the balls which would allow easier welding of the ball groove on the outer bearing. One big worry is, as you suggest, the balance weight as can't recall whether that's located by a snap ring. If so the shaft wont move but if not perhaps the weight can be placed onto the spline out of time? Likely best to concentrate on leaving the shaft where it is to extract the bearing. A friend is coming over to give a second opinion to best get the bike into the center of the garage. ------ Original Message ------ From: "Jeff Saline" To: normkel32@... Cc: DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com Sent: 2015-02-02 5:53:48 PM Subject: Re: [DSN_KLR650] Balancer shaft bearing failure 2013 On Tue, 03 Feb 2015 01:21:11 +0000 "'Norm Keller' normkel32@... [DSN_KLR650]" DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com> writes: There's more here: http://www.klrforum.com/showthread.php?p=381658&posted=1#post381658 I made a pair of eccentric inserts which fit into the bearing ball races, then turn to lock. Using a 5 pound slide hammer, the bearing will not pull so time to reassess. I'm feeling that doing a freebie repair which requires splitting the cases is no longer something I'm interested in doing so off to get a couple of estimates from shops, then will let him decide.7 Then lastly: Can't stand giving up on a problem so think will have a go at it by heating the case (in the bike = hot air guns) + running a bead around the part of the outer ball race which is clear of the balls + hitting the race with cooling spray, then the eccentrics and slide hammer. If it comes out, hard to say if will be able to install the new one but that would be problem #2. Otherwise a friend will do it at his shop by stripping the cases, heating and hydraulic press. Can anyone recall whether the bearing has to go to the inside to remove? It looks clear to the outside of the bearing bore and absolutely don't recall which way we pushed the bearings when doing them all. Two of my bike tech friends who have been in the business for 25 - 35 years can't advise. Only one has ever opened KLR cases, and that to do crank bearings. Not a bad record for KLR. When I'm looking at vehicles, the best news is when the transmission shops have never seen one apart.
-
mark ward
- Posts: 1027
- Joined: Fri Jan 15, 2010 11:18 am
balancer shaft bearing failure 2013
Norm, Based on the picture, I would use a Dremel (or small cut off disk grinder etc. Then,... 1st. Cut off the edge/Lit of the inner race, so you can remove all the bearings.And since that would give you more room to work. 2nd. Cut a slice or 2 in the Outer race to release tension.
This has Worked a couple of times for me in the past on Other Machinery. Saved SEVERAL hours, compared to doing by the Factory step by step, TOTAL take apart way.
On Tuesday, February 3, 2015 12:16 AM, "'Norm Keller' normkel32@... [DSN_KLR650]" DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
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#ygrps-yiv-1883649994yiv2650217244ygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-1883649994 #ygrps-yiv-1883649994yiv2650217244 #ygrps-yiv-1883649994yiv2650217244ygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;} #ygrps-yiv-1883649994It's a no-go without opening up the cases. There is a tiny lip/ridge at the outside of the balancer bearing bore which finally were able to detect behind the chipped out area of the bearing race. I could just manage to catch it with a hooked "O" ring pick so that tells the tale. It's small enough to be under the fillet curve of the bearing race but no way the bearing will come to the outside. That at least is settled. Too bad as hoped for a simpler solution although am not surprised that they were not relying only on the shaft and interference fit to locate the bearing. ------ Original Message ------ From: "Jeff Saline" To: normkel32@... Cc: DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com Sent: 2015-02-02 7:11:24 PM Subject: Re: [DSN_KLR650] Balancer shaft bearing failure 2013 Norm, I get it about being able to beat flat-rate times. Unfortunately I don't think this is going to be one of the sequences it is going to work. Probably have to beat them on the case work and the engine R&R in the frame. The factory manual says "Prior to putting the rear balancer shaft into the crankcase, be sure to install the washer and circlip." Looking at diagrams and pictures it looks like if the balancer shaft is pulled out the thickness of the right bearing (if it can be pulled out that far) the washer would not be secured. The factory manual also says "Rear balancer weight and shaft must be installed before the crankcase is assembled." In the Clymers manual line drawing of the Engine Balancer it looks like the left bearing has a step. That would make sense if installed from the inside with no locating/bearing area indicated from the outside to hold the bearing location. It'll be interesting to hear what you discover/do. One last thought... Maybe try tapping on the outer race moving inwards. If the race moves it suggests that is the direction from which it was installed. I don't know if there is room for the bearing to move in the assembly or not. I'm betting not as it wouldn't be a good design to allow the weight to slide on the balancer shaft. I think that would also allow the shaft to slide and move in the right bearing inner race. Best, Jeff Saline The Beautiful Black Hills of South Dakota 75 R90/6, 03 KLR650 On Tue, 03 Feb 2015 02:40:12 +0000 "Norm Keller" writes: The manuals and flat rate books show this as a split case job but hoping to find a way. We often found ways to beat the flat rate by large margins through innovation when I was wrenching on cars and there are many short cuts which work well on bikes as you know- hoping to find one here. Manuals usually consider hand tools as the only means to deal with repairs so if one can weld to a bearing or use other innovations, sometimes the time can be cut hugely. Replacing the starter clutch on an old Honda CB500 can be done without splitting the cases as the manuals suggest. The job goes from 8 or 9 hours flat rate to an hour or two "fat and old rate". I haven't tried to shift the balancer shaft to the right but should check for the presence of a snap ring as it might be possible to move the shaft inward enough to clear the inner race. In that case the inner race could be shifted radially to drop out the balls which would allow easier welding of the ball groove on the outer bearing. One big worry is, as you suggest, the balance weight as can't recall whether that's located by a snap ring. If so the shaft wont move but if not perhaps the weight can be placed onto the spline out of time? Likely best to concentrate on leaving the shaft where it is to extract the bearing. A friend is coming over to give a second opinion to best get the bike into the center of the garage. ------ Original Message ------ From: "Jeff Saline" To: normkel32@... Cc: DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com Sent: 2015-02-02 5:53:48 PM Subject: Re: [DSN_KLR650] Balancer shaft bearing failure 2013 On Tue, 03 Feb 2015 01:21:11 +0000 "'Norm Keller' normkel32@... [DSN_KLR650]" DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com> writes: There's more here: http://www.klrforum.com/showthread.php?p=381658&posted=1#post381658 I made a pair of eccentric inserts which fit into the bearing ball races, then turn to lock. Using a 5 pound slide hammer, the bearing will not pull so time to reassess. I'm feeling that doing a freebie repair which requires splitting the cases is no longer something I'm interested in doing so off to get a couple of estimates from shops, then will let him decide.7 Then lastly: Can't stand giving up on a problem so think will have a go at it by heating the case (in the bike = hot air guns) + running a bead around the part of the outer ball race which is clear of the balls + hitting the race with cooling spray, then the eccentrics and slide hammer. If it comes out, hard to say if will be able to install the new one but that would be problem #2. Otherwise a friend will do it at his shop by stripping the cases, heating and hydraulic press. Can anyone recall whether the bearing has to go to the inside to remove? It looks clear to the outside of the bearing bore and absolutely don't recall which way we pushed the bearings when doing them all. Two of my bike tech friends who have been in the business for 25 - 35 years can't advise. Only one has ever opened KLR cases, and that to do crank bearings. Not a bad record for KLR. When I'm looking at vehicles, the best news is when the transmission shops have never seen one apart.
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mark ward
- Posts: 1027
- Joined: Fri Jan 15, 2010 11:18 am
balancer shaft bearing failure 2013
Dremel PS. Besides the standard Dremel, I have the Smaller Carving Flex cable attachment, for tighter fitting places. (The main Dremel tool, is too fat to get inclose in some areas.)
On Tuesday, February 3, 2015 1:45 PM, mark ward wrote:
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li:last-child { border-right:none !important;} #ygrps-yiv-899717900Norm, Based on the picture, I would use a Dremel (or small cut off disk grinder etc. Then,... 1st. Cut off the edge/Lit of the inner race, so you can remove all the bearings.And since that would give you more room to work. 2nd. Cut a slice or 2 in the Outer race to release tension. This has Worked a couple of times for me in the past on Other Machinery. Saved SEVERAL hours, compared to doing by the Factory step by step, TOTAL take apart way. On Tuesday, February 3, 2015 12:16 AM, "'Norm Keller' normkel32@... [DSN_KLR650]" DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com> wrote: It's a no-go without opening up the cases. There is a tiny lip/ridge at the outside of the balancer bearing bore which finally were able to detect behind the chipped out area of the bearing race. I could just manage to catch it with a hooked "O" ring pick so that tells the tale. It's small enough to be under the fillet curve of the bearing race but no way the bearing will come to the outside. That at least is settled. Too bad as hoped for a simpler solution although am not surprised that they were not relying only on the shaft and interference fit to locate the bearing. ------ Original Message ------ From: "Jeff Saline" To: normkel32@... Cc: DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com Sent: 2015-02-02 7:11:24 PM Subject: Re: [DSN_KLR650] Balancer shaft bearing failure 2013 Norm, I get it about being able to beat flat-rate times. Unfortunately I don't think this is going to be one of the sequences it is going to work. Probably have to beat them on the case work and the engine R&R in the frame. The factory manual says "Prior to putting the rear balancer shaft into the crankcase, be sure to install the washer and circlip." Looking at diagrams and pictures it looks like if the balancer shaft is pulled out the thickness of the right bearing (if it can be pulled out that far) the washer would not be secured. The factory manual also says "Rear balancer weight and shaft must be installed before the crankcase is assembled." In the Clymers manual line drawing of the Engine Balancer it looks like the left bearing has a step. That would make sense if installed from the inside with no locating/bearing area indicated from the outside to hold the bearing location. It'll be interesting to hear what you discover/do. One last thought... Maybe try tapping on the outer race moving inwards. If the race moves it suggests that is the direction from which it was installed. I don't know if there is room for the bearing to move in the assembly or not. I'm betting not as it wouldn't be a good design to allow the weight to slide on the balancer shaft. I think that would also allow the shaft to slide and move in the right bearing inner race. Best, Jeff Saline The Beautiful Black Hills of South Dakota 75 R90/6, 03 KLR650 On Tue, 03 Feb 2015 02:40:12 +0000 "Norm Keller" writes: The manuals and flat rate books show this as a split case job but hoping to find a way. We often found ways to beat the flat rate by large margins through innovation when I was wrenching on cars and there are many short cuts which work well on bikes as you know- hoping to find one here. Manuals usually consider hand tools as the only means to deal with repairs so if one can weld to a bearing or use other innovations, sometimes the time can be cut hugely. Replacing the starter clutch on an old Honda CB500 can be done without splitting the cases as the manuals suggest. The job goes from 8 or 9 hours flat rate to an hour or two "fat and old rate". I haven't tried to shift the balancer shaft to the right but should check for the presence of a snap ring as it might be possible to move the shaft inward enough to clear the inner race. In that case the inner race could be shifted radially to drop out the balls which would allow easier welding of the ball groove on the outer bearing. One big worry is, as you suggest, the balance weight as can't recall whether that's located by a snap ring. If so the shaft wont move but if not perhaps the weight can be placed onto the spline out of time? Likely best to concentrate on leaving the shaft where it is to extract the bearing. A friend is coming over to give a second opinion to best get the bike into the center of the garage. ------ Original Message ------ From: "Jeff Saline" To: normkel32@... Cc: DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com Sent: 2015-02-02 5:53:48 PM Subject: Re: [DSN_KLR650] Balancer shaft bearing failure 2013 On Tue, 03 Feb 2015 01:21:11 +0000 "'Norm Keller' normkel32@... [DSN_KLR650]" DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com> writes: There's more here: http://www.klrforum.com/showthread.php?p=381658&posted=1#post381658 I made a pair of eccentric inserts which fit into the bearing ball races, then turn to lock. Using a 5 pound slide hammer, the bearing will not pull so time to reassess. I'm feeling that doing a freebie repair which requires splitting the cases is no longer something I'm interested in doing so off to get a couple of estimates from shops, then will let him decide.7 Then lastly: Can't stand giving up on a problem so think will have a go at it by heating the case (in the bike = hot air guns) + running a bead around the part of the outer ball race which is clear of the balls + hitting the race with cooling spray, then the eccentrics and slide hammer. If it comes out, hard to say if will be able to install the new one but that would be problem #2. Otherwise a friend will do it at his shop by stripping the cases, heating and hydraulic press. Can anyone recall whether the bearing has to go to the inside to remove? It looks clear to the outside of the bearing bore and absolutely don't recall which way we pushed the bearings when doing them all. Two of my bike tech friends who have been in the business for 25 - 35 years can't advise. Only one has ever opened KLR cases, and that to do crank bearings. Not a bad record for KLR. When I'm looking at vehicles, the best news is when the transmission shops have never seen one apart.
-
Martin Earl
- Posts: 231
- Joined: Wed Nov 26, 2003 10:00 pm
balancer shaft bearing failure 2013
Norm,I hear you...a some point, this is where the bike becomes a parts donor and not a 'Lazarus'. That is why I tried to buy the other engine myself.I would rather do an engine sway than a complete tear down; it is also why I have two KLR's. wink.
However--Another lead, as I recall, Eagle Mike in San Diego at one time had some spare engines.They were 'take-offs' from the USMC, diesel KLR builds, ad naseum. martinearl.
On Tue, Feb 3, 2015 at 11:48 AM, mark ward nomad59@... [DSN_KLR650] DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com> wrote: Dremel PS. Besides the standard Dremel, I have the Smaller Carving Flex cable attachment, for tighter fitting places. (The main Dremel tool, is too fat to get inclose in some areas.) On Tuesday, February 3, 2015 1:45 PM, mark ward wrote: Norm, Based on the picture, I would use a Dremel (or small cut off disk grinder etc. Then,... 1st. Cut off the edge/Lit of the inner race, so you can remove all the bearings.And since that would give you more room to work. 2nd. Cut a slice or 2 in the Outer race to release tension. This has Worked a couple of times for me in the past on Other Machinery. Saved SEVERAL hours, compared to doing by the Factory step by step, TOTAL take apart way. On Tuesday, February 3, 2015 12:16 AM, "'Norm Keller' normkel32@... [DSN_KLR650]" DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com> wrote: It's a no-go without opening up the cases. There is a tiny lip/ridge at the outside of the balancer bearing bore which finally were able to detect behind the chipped out area of the bearing race. I could just manage to catch it with a hooked "O" ring pick so that tells the tale. It's small enough to be under the fillet curve of the bearing race but no way the bearing will come to the outside. That at least is settled. Too bad as hoped for a simpler solution although am not surprised that they were not relying only on the shaft and interference fit to locate the bearing. ------ Original Message ------ From: "Jeff Saline" To: normkel32@... Cc: DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com Sent: 2015-02-02 7:11:24 PM Subject: Re: [DSN_KLR650] Balancer shaft bearing failure 2013 Norm, I get it about being able to beat flat-rate times. Unfortunately I don't think this is going to be one of the sequences it is going to work. Probably have to beat them on the case work and the engine R&R in the frame. The factory manual says "Prior to putting the rear balancer shaft into the crankcase, be sure to install the washer and circlip." Looking at diagrams and pictures it looks like if the balancer shaft is pulled out the thickness of the right bearing (if it can be pulled out that far) the washer would not be secured. The factory manual also says "Rear balancer weight and shaft must be installed before the crankcase is assembled." In the Clymers manual line drawing of the Engine Balancer it looks like the left bearing has a step. That would make sense if installed from the inside with no locating/bearing area indicated from the outside to hold the bearing location. It'll be interesting to hear what you discover/do. One last thought... Maybe try tapping on the outer race moving inwards. If the race moves it suggests that is the direction from which it was installed. I don't know if there is room for the bearing to move in the assembly or not. I'm betting not as it wouldn't be a good design to allow the weight to slide on the balancer shaft. I think that would also allow the shaft to slide and move in the right bearing inner race. Best, Jeff Saline The Beautiful Black Hills of South Dakota 75 R90/6, 03 KLR650 On Tue, 03 Feb 2015 02:40:12 +0000 "Norm Keller" writes: The manuals and flat rate books show this as a split case job but hoping to find a way. We often found ways to beat the flat rate by large margins through innovation when I was wrenching on cars and there are many short cuts which work well on bikes as you know- hoping to find one here. Manuals usually consider hand tools as the only means to deal with repairs so if one can weld to a bearing or use other innovations, sometimes the time can be cut hugely. Replacing the starter clutch on an old Honda CB500 can be done without splitting the cases as the manuals suggest. The job goes from 8 or 9 hours flat rate to an hour or two "fat and old rate". I haven't tried to shift the balancer shaft to the right but should check for the presence of a snap ring as it might be possible to move the shaft inward enough to clear the inner race. In that case the inner race could be shifted radially to drop out the balls which would allow easier welding of the ball groove on the outer bearing. One big worry is, as you suggest, the balance weight as can't recall whether that's located by a snap ring. If so the shaft wont move but if not perhaps the weight can be placed onto the spline out of time? Likely best to concentrate on leaving the shaft where it is to extract the bearing. A friend is coming over to give a second opinion to best get the bike into the center of the garage. ------ Original Message ------ From: "Jeff Saline" To: normkel32@... Cc: DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com Sent: 2015-02-02 5:53:48 PM Subject: Re: [DSN_KLR650] Balancer shaft bearing failure 2013 On Tue, 03 Feb 2015 01:21:11 +0000 "'Norm Keller' normkel32@... [DSN_KLR650]" DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com> writes: There's more here: http://www.klrforum.com/showthread.php?p=381658&posted=1#post381658 I made a pair of eccentric inserts which fit into the bearing ball races, then turn to lock. Using a 5 pound slide hammer, the bearing will not pull so time to reassess. I'm feeling that doing a freebie repair which requires splitting the cases is no longer something I'm interested in doing so off to get a couple of estimates from shops, then will let him decide.7 Then lastly: Can't stand giving up on a problem so think will have a go at it by heating the case (in the bike = hot air guns) + running a bead around the part of the outer ball race which is clear of the balls + hitting the race with cooling spray, then the eccentrics and slide hammer. If it comes out, hard to say if will be able to install the new one but that would be problem #2. Otherwise a friend will do it at his shop by stripping the cases, heating and hydraulic press. Can anyone recall whether the bearing has to go to the inside to remove? It looks clear to the outside of the bearing bore and absolutely don't recall which way we pushed the bearings when doing them all. Two of my bike tech friends who have been in the business for 25 - 35 years can't advise. Only one has ever opened KLR cases, and that to do crank bearings. Not a bad record for KLR. When I'm looking at vehicles, the best news is when the transmission shops have never seen one apart.
-
Norm Keller
- Posts: 712
- Joined: Thu Apr 01, 2004 7:48 am
balancer shaft bearing failure 2013
#ygrps-yiv-1016376518 blockquote.ygrps-yiv-1016376518cite {margin-left:5px;margin-right:0px;padding-left:10px;padding-right:0px;border-left:1px solid #cccccc;} #ygrps-yiv-1016376518 blockquote.ygrps-yiv-1016376518cite2 {margin-left:5px;margin-right:0px;padding-left:10px;padding-right:0px;border-left:1px solid #cccccc;margin-top:3px;padding-top:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-1016376518 .ygrps-yiv-1016376518plain pre, #ygrps-yiv-1016376518 .ygrps-yiv-1016376518plain tt {font-family:monospace;font-size:100%;font-weight:normal;font-style:normal;} #ygrps-yiv-1016376518 a img {border:0px;}#ygrps-yiv-1016376518 {font-family:Tahoma;font-size:12pt;} #ygrps-yiv-1016376518 .ygrps-yiv-1016376518plain pre, #ygrps-yiv-1016376518 .ygrps-yiv-1016376518plain tt {font-family:Tahoma;font-size:12pt;} Bike is at my friend's shop so will drop by tomorrow to have a look at cylinder hand head. I'm glad not to be committed to the work. Talked with my brother-in-law who is a retired tech also and he said the same thing. He's not doing work for others any more because it's too much pressure and ....lazy? 
He will put in a new set of rings (58,000 km) while the barrel is off unless it needs more attention. Valve guide seals, all (4) balancer bearings just to be safer. Too bad that bearing cage failed but no thoughts as to possible prevention. It would appear to be a simple cage failure and that's likely the highest vibration area on the bike so one might expect that one to go first. He likely just got a bearing which failed earlier than average. Someone here or KLR Forum suggested die grinding the lip to allow the bearing to be withdrawn from the outside and while I like the idea as that kind of thing has worked for other applications, not going there on someone else' bike, especially such a low mileage. I thought of placing 6 or 8 machine screws into tapped holes such that the heads would act as bearing retainer but were it mine and not being able to predict the axial loading, it would seem to be poor value. I'd be worrying about a possible failure when taking it anywhere. He lives in Quebec and just got back here from Florida so maybe not the one to risk unusual solutions? Perhaps Tom might try that with a bearing in that discard case to see how grinding out the lip works for extraction and how much it takes to press the bearing to move when it's near maximum temperature. I don't have a left case at hand to try. A person could pack the bearing and shaft with grease, then screen off the area with plastic to keep swarf from getting inside the transmission and spaces when grinding so might be a useful approach to try on another application. Thoughts?
He will put in a new set of rings (58,000 km) while the barrel is off unless it needs more attention. Valve guide seals, all (4) balancer bearings just to be safer. Too bad that bearing cage failed but no thoughts as to possible prevention. It would appear to be a simple cage failure and that's likely the highest vibration area on the bike so one might expect that one to go first. He likely just got a bearing which failed earlier than average. Someone here or KLR Forum suggested die grinding the lip to allow the bearing to be withdrawn from the outside and while I like the idea as that kind of thing has worked for other applications, not going there on someone else' bike, especially such a low mileage. I thought of placing 6 or 8 machine screws into tapped holes such that the heads would act as bearing retainer but were it mine and not being able to predict the axial loading, it would seem to be poor value. I'd be worrying about a possible failure when taking it anywhere. He lives in Quebec and just got back here from Florida so maybe not the one to risk unusual solutions? Perhaps Tom might try that with a bearing in that discard case to see how grinding out the lip works for extraction and how much it takes to press the bearing to move when it's near maximum temperature. I don't have a left case at hand to try. A person could pack the bearing and shaft with grease, then screen off the area with plastic to keep swarf from getting inside the transmission and spaces when grinding so might be a useful approach to try on another application. Thoughts? Who is online
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