???f fixed ??? (was "high rpm miss .......... any updates???

[mark ward]

For a few weeks were watching and advising on a high RPM miss, and I lost track who had the issue.

Any Updates? find the ISSUE/S?

[James W. Flower]

Mark, thanks for asking. I'm playing with this in my spare time (work is the curse of the cycling class), learning a lot about the machine but not resolving the problem. Still have the miss. It first started on the freeway home from a very dusty, hot weather ride. The miss starts within two miles of when I start cruising at 4800-5000 rpm, whether I'm in 3d, 4th, or 5th. It's almost imperceptible at first, but after 4-5 miles it's bucking like a rodeo bull. Once it starts it keeps missing unless I back off to around 4000. Below that, it's smooth. NEW CLUE: the miss clears up completely when I accelerate, starts in when I level off, as long as I level off at 4500 or faster. Stuff I tried: New air filter (K&N, which I gather is not the best in dirt, but I had it handy). Switched to the gravity feed petcock. Checked fuel flow (one gallon in five minutes). Changed spark plug (the NGK Iridium one, thanks Fred); gap .033-.034". Checked plug wire resistor. Trimmed plug wire (just on general principles, it looked fine), dialectric-greased it. (I put the resistor back in first, then the little spring, then the screw; maybe it's supposed to be spring-resistor-screw, but the way I did it seems to work fine.) Replaced CDI unit (on a hunch, and because the consensus seems to be that the test drill in Clymer's is non-dispositive). Checked diode unit. Checked ignition coil. Checked exciter coil. Checked pickup coil. I bought another (used) diode unit ($10), but haven't put it in, having no reason to think that's really the problem. I guess I'll try that next though. One local mechanic thinks it's the valves. Though they're a tad overdue for adjustment, I'm getting none of the symptoms of too-tightness I've read about here. And though I can't recall his explanation well enough to repeat it, it didn't sound plausible at the time. I did a half-assed check of the carb, which looked fine, no clogged jets or other obvious problems. I don't know if it matters, but I got curious about what throttle positions I was in when the miss happens. At 5000 rpm in 5th I'm at 3/8 throttle, and at 5000 in 4th I'm at 5/16. I may pull the carb off and do a more thorough check, but the consensus seems to be that the problem's electrical. I bought a timing light and will check the timing but I don't see how that could be it. So the doctor tells the patient, "There's good news and bad news. The good news is, they've named a new disease after you...". Aagh! -James

[mark ward]

Over 20+ years as a service tech, (diesel mech. in Navy, Machine repair, HVAC, Plumbing, Home & commercial appliance repair.  AUTO & BIKES JUST HOBBY) I learned some times you have to stop, take a breath, and SEPERATE EVERYTHING in your head, Sometimes you can have a "COINCIDENCE" in timing. you repair 1 thing and the unit starts doing something else wrong SO YOU TAKE IT FOR GRANTED IT'S DO TO WHAT YOU DID.  NOT ALWAY'S, BUT OFTEN IS, (just about everyone has moved a lamp re-plugged it in, and the bulb blows the second you turn it on.  THAT was just Timing, but our 1st thought is what did I! do wrong.   OK, lets start slow, breaking down each step. STARTING WITH FREE TO CHEAP to $$! (check 1&3 before running for a new hose, but I would lay better odd's on the hose them Muffler. and even if the muffler rattles still, the hose is CHEAP P.M.S.) FREE1. You mentioned a Resistor spring & screw, when you talked about spark plug & die-electric grease.   And possibly, putting on in wrong order?  you can often pull up a schematic threw dealers parts pages, to see a picture of them in order.  Cheap. ($0.50- $2.)2.Did you check / replace the Vacuum line from the petcock to the carb?  The higher the RPMs the stronger the vacuum, AND as it WARMS UP. it gets softer, and MAY, collapse. (like sucking on a thick milkshake threw cheap straw, it collapses restricking flow even more.)  FREE TEST (at first) 3. take your fist and bang on the Muffler, to see if you hear any rattle INSIDE. (IF! a baffle is loose it "MAY" Restrict full air flow.)   On Sunday, June 15, 2014 2:24 AM, "'James W. Flower' jwflower53@... [DSN_KLR650]" DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

  Mark, thanks for asking. I'm playing with this in my spare time (work is the curse of the cycling class), learning a lot about the machine but not resolving the problem. Still have the miss. It first started on the freeway home from a very dusty, hot weather ride. The miss starts within two miles of when I start cruising at 4800-5000 rpm, whether I'm in 3d, 4th, or 5th. It's almost imperceptible at first, but after 4-5 miles it's bucking like a rodeo bull. Once it starts it keeps missing unless I back off to around 4000. Below that, it's smooth. NEW CLUE: the miss clears up completely when I accelerate, starts in when I level off, as long as I level off at 4500 or faster. Stuff I tried: New air filter (K&N, which I gather is not the best in dirt, but I had it handy). Switched to the gravity feed petcock. Checked fuel flow (one gallon in five minutes). Changed spark plug (the NGK Iridium one, thanks Fred); gap .033-.034". Checked plug wire resistor. Trimmed plug wire (just on general principles, it looked fine), dialectric-greased it. (I put the resistor back in first, then the little spring, then the screw; maybe it's supposed to be spring-resistor-screw, but the way I did it seems to work fine.) Replaced CDI unit (on a hunch, and because the consensus seems to be that the test drill in Clymer's is non-dispositive). Checked diode unit. Checked ignition coil. Checked exciter coil. Checked pickup coil. I bought another (used) diode unit ($10), but haven't put it in, having no reason to think that's really the problem. I guess I'll try that next though. One local mechanic thinks it's the valves. Though they're a tad overdue for adjustment, I'm getting none of the symptoms of too-tightness I've read about here. And though I can't recall his explanation well enough to repeat it, it didn't sound plausible at the time. I did a half-assed check of the carb, which looked fine, no clogged jets or other obvious problems. I don't know if it matters, but I got curious about what throttle positions I was in when the miss happens. At 5000 rpm in 5th I'm at 3/8 throttle, and at 5000 in 4th I'm at 5/16. I may pull the carb off and do a more thorough check, but the consensus seems to be that the problem's electrical. I bought a timing light and will check the timing but I don't see how that could be it. So the doctor tells the patient, "There's good news and bad news. The good news is, they've named a new disease after you...". 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[Michael Martin]

The new clue wherein the miss disappears at full throttle indicates to me that the ignition system is NOT the problem.  Rationale: it takes a higher voltage to jump the spark plug gap at wider throttle openings. Mike MartinLouisville, KY [b]From:[/b] "'James W. Flower' jwflower53@... [DSN_KLR650]" DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com> [b]To:[/b] DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com [b]Cc:[/b] nomad59@... [b]Sent:[/b] Sunday, June 15, 2014 2:24 AM [b]Subject:[/b] [DSN_KLR650] Re: HIGH RPM MISS .......... ANY UPDATES???  It first started on the freeway home from a very dusty, hot weather ride. The miss starts within two miles of when I start cruising at 4800-5000 rpm, whether I'm in 3d, 4th, or 5th. It's almost imperceptible at first, but after 4-5 miles it's bucking like a rodeo bull. Once it starts it keeps missing unless I back off to around 4000. Below that, it's smooth. 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[RobertWichert]

This may be heat related, James. That's always a possibility when something takes any time at all to develop.  If that is the case, the part may check out fine with an ohmmeter, but when hot, it goes bad. For this reason I suggest replacing, one at a time, the things you checked but did not replace.  And if that CDI unit was used, well, I would not trust it.  Sorry.  But if the problem was the same, well, it could be not the culprit. I would start with replacing the plug wire from the coil to the plug.  Then the coil (sorry).  I would then inspect mm by mm the primary wire(s) to the coil and verify that the primary voltage was reasonably OK running at those RPMs in the driveway.  Question - does it do it in the driveway?  That might give you a way to find the problem without a test ride.  Could save time. At that point I'd go into the case and (Shudder) replace the exciter and the pickup.  I'm not too sure of how those parts in the case get replaced, but if everything else is OK, they could cause the problem. A bad diode could cause this and diodes can fail under heat load, I'd guess.  So replacing that (with a new one, not with a used one) would be advisable before opening the case (it's on the outside, right?). I still think an old fashioned oscilloscope could help find the problem, primary or secondary any way. Robert Wichert P.Eng. LEED AP BD&C HERS I/II CEPE CEA BPI CERTIFIED SF/MF GREEN POINT RATER +1 916 966 9060 FAX +1 916 966 9068 =============================================== On 6/14/2014 11:24 PM, 'James W. Flower' jwflower53@... [DSN_KLR650] wrote:

  Mark, thanks for asking. I'm playing with this in my spare time (work is the curse of the cycling class), learning a lot about the machine but not resolving the problem. Still have the miss. It first started on the freeway home from a very dusty, hot weather ride. The miss starts within two miles of when I start cruising at 4800-5000 rpm, whether I'm in 3d, 4th, or 5th. It's almost imperceptible at first, but after 4-5 miles it's bucking like a rodeo bull. Once it starts it keeps missing unless I back off to around 4000. Below that, it's smooth. NEW CLUE: the miss clears up completely when I accelerate, starts in when I level off, as long as I level off at 4500 or faster. Stuff I tried: New air filter (K&N, which I gather is not the best in dirt, but I had it handy). Switched to the gravity feed petcock. Checked fuel flow (one gallon in five minutes). Changed spark plug (the NGK Iridium one, thanks Fred); gap .033-.034". Checked plug wire resistor. Trimmed plug wire (just on general principles, it looked fine), dialectric-greased it. (I put the resistor back in first, then the little spring, then the screw; maybe it's supposed to be spring-resistor-screw, but the way I did it seems to work fine.) Replaced CDI unit (on a hunch, and because the consensus seems to be that the test drill in Clymer's is non-dispositive). Checked diode unit. Checked ignition coil. Checked exciter coil. Checked pickup coil. I bought another (used) diode unit ($10), but haven't put it in, having no reason to think that's really the problem. I guess I'll try that next though. One local mechanic thinks it's the valves. Though they're a tad overdue for adjustment, I'm getting none of the symptoms of too-tightness I've read about here. And though I can't recall his explanation well enough to repeat it, it didn't sound plausible at the time. I did a half-assed check of the carb, which looked fine, no clogged jets or other obvious problems. I don't know if it matters, but I got curious about what throttle positions I was in when the miss happens. At 5000 rpm in 5th I'm at 3/8 throttle, and at 5000 in 4th I'm at 5/16. I may pull the carb off and do a more thorough check, but the consensus seems to be that the problem's electrical. I bought a timing light and will check the timing but I don't see how that could be it. So the doctor tells the patient, "There's good news and bad news. The good news is, they've named a new disease after you...". Aagh! -James

[RobertWichert]

Well, it might take more spark to ignite a lean mixture and the full throttle mixture may be richer, but set that aside. If full throttle fixes it, then it's not fuel related is it?  I mean, there is no doubt that it takes more fuel at full throttle. Robert Wichert P.Eng. LEED AP BD&C HERS I/II CEPE CEA BPI CERTIFIED SF/MF GREEN POINT RATER +1 916 966 9060 FAX +1 916 966 9068 =============================================== On 6/15/2014 7:10 AM, Michael Martin mmartin36@... [DSN_KLR650] wrote:

  The new clue wherein the miss disappears at full throttle indicates to me that the ignition system is NOT the problem.  Rationale: it takes a higher voltage to jump the spark plug gap at wider throttle openings. Mike Martin Louisville, KY [b]From:[/b] "'James W. Flower' jwflower53@... [DSN_KLR650]" DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com [b]To:[/b] DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com [b]Cc:[/b] nomad59@... [b]Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2014 2:24 AM Subject:[/b] [DSN_KLR650] Re: HIGH RPM MISS .......... ANY UPDATES??? [b] [/b] [b] It first started on the freeway home from a very dusty, hot weather ride. The miss starts within two miles of when I start cruising at 4800-5000 rpm, whether I'm in 3d, 4th, or 5th. It's almost imperceptible at first, but after 4-5 miles it's bucking like a rodeo bull. Once it starts it keeps missing unless I back off to around 4000. Below that, it's smooth. NEW CLUE: the miss clears up completely when I accelerate, starts in when I level off, as long as I level off at 4500 or faster. [/b] [b] . [/b] [b] [/b] [b] [/b] [b] [/b] [b] [/b] [b] [/b] [b] [/b] [b] [/b]

[Michael Martin]

Full throttle enables more air to charge the cylinder and be compressed.  This makes the cylinder pressure higher when the spark plug is supposed to fire.  Higher cylinder pressure requires higher voltage across the spark plug gap to produce a spark. The temperatures of the ignition system components are just as hot when James opens his throttle wider, so the ignition system produces a good spark at these temps.  That's why I believe the ignition system is OK. Warmer temps could cause a rubber component to soften and allow an air leak to lean the mixture and produce a miss-fire.  The amount of air leakage would actually be reduced at larger throttle openings because the intake tract would then be closer to atmospheric pressure. Fuel flow capability checked out under idle conditions and is evidently good at wide open throttle. I think there's a mixture problem at part throttle. Mike Martin, Louisville, KY From: "RobertWichert robert@... [DSN_KLR650]" DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com> To: DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com; Michael Martin ; James W. Flower Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2014 10:21 AM Subject: Re: [DSN_KLR650] Re: HIGH RPM MISS .......... ANY UPDATES???   Well, it might take more spark to ignite a lean mixture and the full throttle mixture may be richer, but set that aside. If full throttle fixes it, then it's not fuel related is it?  I mean, there is no doubt that it takes more fuel at full throttle. Robert Wichert P.Eng. LEED AP BD&C HERS I/II CEPE CEA BPI CERTIFIED SF/MF GREEN POINT RATER +1 916 966 9060 FAX +1 916 966 9068 =============================================== On 6/15/2014 7:10 AM, Michael Martin mmartin36@... [DSN_KLR650] wrote:

  The new clue wherein the miss disappears at full throttle indicates to me that the ignition system is NOT the problem.  Rationale: it takes a higher voltage to jump the spark plug gap at wider throttle openings. Mike Martin Louisville, KY From: "'James W. Flower' jwflower53@... [DSN_KLR650]" DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com To: DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com Cc: nomad59@... Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2014 2:24 AM Subject: [DSN_KLR650] Re: HIGH RPM MISS .......... ANY UPDATES???  It first started on the freeway home from a very dusty, hot weather ride. The miss starts within two miles of when I start cruising at 4800-5000 rpm, whether I'm in 3d, 4th, or 5th. It's almost imperceptible at first, but after 4-5 miles it's bucking like a rodeo bull. Once it starts it keeps missing unless I back off to around 4000. Below that, it's smooth. NEW CLUE: the miss clears up completely when I accelerate, starts in when I level off, as long as I level off at 4500 or faster. .

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[RobertWichert]

I am obviously wrong about everything. I give up. Robert Wichert P.Eng. LEED AP BD&C HERS I/II CEPE CEA BPI CERTIFIED SF/MF GREEN POINT RATER +1 916 966 9060 FAX +1 916 966 9068 =============================================== On 6/15/2014 8:00 AM, Michael Martin mmartin36@... [DSN_KLR650] wrote:

  Full throttle enables more air to charge the cylinder and be compressed.  This makes the cylinder pressure higher when the spark plug is supposed to fire.  Higher cylinder pressure requires higher voltage across the spark plug gap to produce a spark. The temperatures of the ignition system components are just as hot when James opens his throttle wider, so the ignition system produces a good spark at these temps.  That's why I believe the ignition system is OK. Warmer temps could cause a rubber component to soften and allow an air leak to lean the mixture and produce a miss-fire.  The amount of air leakage would actually be reduced at larger throttle openings because the intake tract would then be closer to atmospheric pressure. Fuel flow capability checked out under idle conditions and is evidently good at wide open throttle. I think there's a mixture problem at part throttle. Mike Martin, Louisville, KY From: "RobertWichert robert@... [DSN_KLR650]" DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com To: DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com; Michael Martin mmartin36@...; James W. Flower jwflower53@... Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2014 10:21 AM Subject: Re: [DSN_KLR650] Re: HIGH RPM MISS .......... ANY UPDATES???   Well, it might take more spark to ignite a lean mixture and the full throttle mixture may be richer, but set that aside. If full throttle fixes it, then it's not fuel related is it?  I mean, there is no doubt that it takes more fuel at full throttle. Robert Wichert P.Eng. LEED AP BD&C HERS I/II CEPE CEA BPI CERTIFIED SF/MF GREEN POINT RATER +1 916 966 9060 FAX +1 916 966 9068 =============================================== On 6/15/2014 7:10 AM, Michael Martin mmartin36@... [DSN_KLR650] wrote:   The new clue wherein the miss disappears at full throttle indicates to me that the ignition system is NOT the problem.  Rationale: it takes a higher voltage to jump the spark plug gap at wider throttle openings. Mike Martin Louisville, KY From: "'James W. Flower' jwflower53@... [DSN_KLR650]" DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com To: DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com Cc: nomad59@... Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2014 2:24 AM Subject: [DSN_KLR650] Re: HIGH RPM MISS .......... ANY UPDATES???  It first started on the freeway home from a very dusty, hot weather ride. The miss starts within two miles of when I start cruising at 4800-5000 rpm, whether I'm in 3d, 4th, or 5th. It's almost imperceptible at first, but after 4-5 miles it's bucking like a rodeo bull. Once it starts it keeps missing unless I back off to around 4000. Below that, it's smooth. NEW CLUE: the miss clears up completely when I accelerate, starts in when I level off, as long as I level off at 4500 or faster. .

[mark ward]

I HATE this new Email system.I TRIED, to send this E to just James, (reply to sender NOT all conversation) yet it still goes everywhere.  I was trying to avoid, the BIG conversation and try the simplest, FREE CHEAP, items before all the complex Electrical, etc. "OIL THREAD" Again. OOPS!     On Sunday, June 15, 2014 11:08 AM, "RobertWichert robert@... [DSN_KLR650]" DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

  I am obviously wrong about everything. I give up. Robert Wichert P.Eng. LEED AP BD&C HERS I/II CEPE CEA BPI CERTIFIED SF/MF GREEN POINT RATER +1 916 966 9060 FAX +1 916 966 9068 =============================================== On 6/15/2014 8:00 AM, Michael Martin mmartin36@... [DSN_KLR650] wrote:   Full throttle enables more air to charge the cylinder and be compressed.  This makes the cylinder pressure higher when the spark plug is supposed to fire.  Higher cylinder pressure requires higher voltage across the spark plug gap to produce a spark. The temperatures of the ignition system components are just as hot when James opens his throttle wider, so the ignition system produces a good spark at these temps.  That's why I believe the ignition system is OK. Warmer temps could cause a rubber component to soften and allow an air leak to lean the mixture and produce a miss-fire.  The amount of air leakage would actually be reduced at larger throttle openings because the intake tract would then be closer to atmospheric pressure. Fuel flow capability checked out under idle conditions and is evidently good at wide open throttle. I think there's a mixture problem at part throttle. Mike Martin, Louisville, KY From: "RobertWichert robert@... [DSN_KLR650]" DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com To: DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com; Michael Martin mmartin36@...; James W. Flower jwflower53@... Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2014 10:21 AM Subject: Re: [DSN_KLR650] Re: HIGH RPM MISS .......... ANY UPDATES???   Well, it might take more spark to ignite a lean mixture and the full throttle mixture may be richer, but set that aside. If full throttle fixes it, then it's not fuel related is it?  I mean, there is no doubt that it takes more fuel at full throttle. Robert Wichert P.Eng. LEED AP BD&C HERS I/II CEPE CEA BPI CERTIFIED SF/MF GREEN POINT RATER +1 916 966 9060 FAX +1 916 966 9068 =============================================== On 6/15/2014 7:10 AM, Michael Martin mmartin36@... [DSN_KLR650] wrote:   The new clue wherein the miss disappears at full throttle indicates to me that the ignition system is NOT the problem.  Rationale: it takes a higher voltage to jump the spark plug gap at wider throttle openings. Mike Martin Louisville, KY From: "'James W. Flower' jwflower53@... [DSN_KLR650]" DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com To: DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com Cc: nomad59@... Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2014 2:24 AM Subject: [DSN_KLR650] Re: HIGH RPM MISS .......... ANY UPDATES???  It first started on the freeway home from a very dusty, hot weather ride. The miss starts within two miles of when I start cruising at 4800-5000 rpm, whether I'm in 3d, 4th, or 5th. It's almost imperceptible at first, but after 4-5 miles it's bucking like a rodeo bull. Once it starts it keeps missing unless I back off to around 4000. Below that, it's smooth. NEW CLUE: the miss clears up completely when I accelerate, starts in when I level off, as long as I level off at 4500 or faster. .

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[Norm Keller]

If you can get it to miss on the floor, use the timing light as a "poor man's oscilloscope" to check for interruptions in the flashing pattern. That will indicate an ignition miss. Alternatively, a neon type inline spark checker should be in everyone's tool box as one can install a spark plug end nut onto the plug to fit the inline spark checker (they usually fit the full sized end on a spark plug) and ride with the checker in place. It should be obvious when the symptom occurs whether the flash is interrupting. Sometimes easier to see at night but I can see well enough excepting if the checker is in direct bright sun. 

 

 

 

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