valentines day nklr

[pdstreeter@mmm.com]

Keith Saltzer wrote:

>I tell new riders not to use the back brake at all until >they know how to use the front with 100% confidence, and learn how to >use it to its' fullest capacity.

The KLR's front brake just isn't powerful enough for this. The KLR really benefits from using both brakes. I rarely use the rear brake on my ZRX 1100, but it has double discs with 6 pot calipers. The ZRX has killer brakes, but the KLR needs all the help it can get. Of course, I'm sure I out-weigh you, so that makes a difference. Paul Streeter

[Keith Saltzer]

> Keith Saltzer wrote: > > >I tell new riders not to use the back brake at all until > >they know how to use the front with 100% confidence, and learn how

to

> >use it to its' fullest capacity. > The KLR's front brake just isn't powerful enough for this. The KLR

really

> benefits from using both brakes. I rarely use the rear brake on my

ZRX

> 1100, but it has double discs with 6 pot calipers. The ZRX has

killer

> brakes, but the KLR needs all the help it can get. Of course, I'm

sure I

> out-weigh you, so that makes a difference. > > Paul Streeter

I'm going to go into detail here about what I was talking about because I believe that it is so important to every riders health, safety, and fun factor while riding. The comment of "the KLR's brake just isn't powerful enough for this" is very misleading. Not powerful enough for what? It's used to slow down the bike, and that's it. Every bikes front brake is used for that reason. If you mean that it is not powerful enough to ride fast, I beg to differ with you. If you mean that it won't stop as fast as another bikes front brake, fine, then ride accordingly and adjust your speed. But you can certainly ride with just the front brake on a KLR. Yes, you need to use more hand strength on the KLR lever than other bikes, that's all the more reason to see/hear/feel what it takes to get the MOST of it by practicing, with just the front brake. Of course having the best stopping pads helps, and SS line for better feel, and clean, fresh fluid in the lines with NO air will be a big plus too. Paul, I completely understand what you are talking about when you say that the KLR benefits from using both brakes. However, ALL bikes benefit from using both brakes. But you have to know what is going on with both the front and back, how it all works, and practice practice practice the RIGHT way to do it. This is way over most new riders heads. Way to much to learn and think about while learning to ride. Using the rear first to settle the back end and lowering the CG so that you have less forward weight transfer foreward etc etc, works with every bike. But it is still only a small fraction of what you can do with just the front, when the front is used to it's MAXIMUM potential. But the NEGATIVES that also come with using the back brake are the one's that I am most concerned about for new riders, or riders that have been riding for decades, and were never taught this. (like me) The back brake is a much smaller percent of your stopping power AND it can wreak havic on a new or unsuspecting rider in a heartbeat. Couple that fact with the fact "as you use the front brake more and more aggressively, the back brake becomes less and less effective", and I'm sure you can understand where I am coming from. I have ridden and continue to ride with many many guys that don't really know how to use their brakes, and I constantly see them hitting the back brake and getting into trouble. If they didn't use the back brake, they wouldn't be skidding the rear and sliding out, and they would be forced to learn how to use the front brake properly. Most do not fully understand that the spinning rear wheel is the MAIN part of the bike keeping the MAJORITY of the bike stable, from the steering stem back. Most do not realize that if they hit the back brake and lock it up, (which is what they will do instinctively if they always use the rear brake) they are going to high side if they let off the brake once they start the back end sliding out sideways. (which will also happen instinctively unless practiced out) Most do not understand that as long as you keep the back wheel spinning, and your bike is standing straight up, and your handlebars are pointed straight, you can lock up the front wheel and keep it locked up without going down. Doc Wong has you practice this in a gravel parking lot to see how far you can ride this way. Most do not realize just HOW HARD their bikes can stop while using just the front break. Because they don't practice this extensively, and/or are very afraid of sliding the front end. Most do not realize that a lot of guys that ride fast at the track, or on the street, or have years of experiance riding, do not use the rear brake. It is my opinion then that the new rider, or rider that has never learned these things and more, get out there and ride with just the front brake, until they KNOW what it will do in any situation. I have on several occasions been literally jaw dropped amazed at what the KLR front brake did to get me out of a really bad situation. Yes I was pulling the lever back to almost touching the grip. Yes I was using all four fingers for strength. Yes I heard the front tire (Avon Gripster) howling as it was at the threshold of locking up, but still turning. But this all happened in about 1 1/2 seconds, and it only went smoothly (I just missed the car, animal, etc) because I had practiced it day in and day out for over a year. If I would have used the back brake, I would have gone down. As you can see I am very passionate about this subject, and many more concerning how to understand a bike and how it works. I was surprized to learn that out of all the forces a bike can produce on our bodies as we ride, braking hard is the highest. It fires up our survival intincts pretty quick, and practicing can make a huge difference in sorting out, and overcoming these strong forces and help us to become better riders. MrMoose A8 (Barbie and Ken special)

[scttotis]

I was surprized at just how effective the klr front brake is after reading how bad it is prior to getting mine. I regularly quick stop and I also use both front and rear brakes. THe rear will always start to slide in these practice stops, even If I'm not braking the rear hard. Most all the weight is going to the front tire, so it's doing most all the braking on these stops, lightening the rear which will start to slide with a minimal brake app. . I'm thinking it's good to have a front brake that might not skid in a panic stop when you have super strength, and am thinking maybe it's not a design defect, but a design asset, KLR's version of antilock brakes, ha ha, ...from the good folks at Kawa. PS I weigh 240.

--- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, pdstreeter@m... wrote: > > > > > Keith Saltzer wrote: > > >I tell new riders not to use the back brake at all until > >they know how to use the front with 100% confidence, and learn how to > >use it to its' fullest capacity. > > The KLR's front brake just isn't powerful enough for this. The KLR really > benefits from using both brakes. I rarely use the rear brake on my ZRX > 1100, but it has double discs with 6 pot calipers. The ZRX has killer > brakes, but the KLR needs all the help it can get. Of course, I'm sure I > out-weigh you, so that makes a difference. > > Paul Streeter

[Lujo Bauer]

I don't think the KLRs brakes as bad as some have claimed, but every time I don't ride the KLR for a couple of months I get freaked out the first time I try to come to a rapid stop (my other bike has servo-assisted brakes). Speaking of locking the rear, however: I think that's a somewhat common problem (could be only after the caliper pins are no longer in tip-top shape or something like that). My rear brake is pretty binary -- either it's doing next to nothing or it's doing way too much. I've heard several others complain of the same thing. -Lujo A13 scttotis wrote:

> > I was surprized at just how effective the klr front brake is after > reading how bad it is prior to getting mine. I regularly quick stop > and I also use both front and rear brakes. THe rear will always start > to slide in these practice stops, even If I'm not braking the rear > hard. Most all the weight is going to the front tire, so it's doing > most all the braking on these stops, lightening the rear which will > start to slide with a minimal brake app. . I'm thinking it's good to > have a front brake that might not skid in a panic stop when you have > super strength, and am thinking maybe it's not a design defect, but a > design asset, KLR's version of antilock brakes, ha ha, ...from the > good folks at Kawa. PS I weigh 240.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Tengai Mark Van Horn]

I know what you mean. KLRs have been my only bikes since I sold my street bike 8 years ago. A lot of people say they vibrate a lot, but I think they're pretty smooth. However, it took some getting used to again after 40 minutes on an ST1300, followed by a 1 hour ride on a ZZR1200. For the first 20 miles after getting back on the KLR, I thought my fillings were going to pop out. Mark At 2:45 PM -0500 2/14/05, Lujo Bauer wrote:

>I don't think the KLRs brakes as bad as some have claimed, but every >time I don't ride the KLR for a couple of months I get freaked out the >first time I try to come to a rapid stop (my other bike has >servo-assisted brakes).

[scttotis]

Thanks for the input Lujo. I have assumed that it is a nice convenience to use sportbike brakes, and by comparison the feel of the KLR is weak. I'm not complaining about the rear brake, just saying that the rear lifts off and is ineffective in hard braking, the front carries the load, recall tom cruise stopping on the front wheel in Mission Impossible. THe skidding at light rear brake application is proof that the front is doing all the work. With some 500 lbs of bike and rider on the front wheel, your getting about 500 lbs decel force on the bike from the front wheel. The rear in this brake app, with say 50 lbs weight on the rear, only would contribute 50 lbs decel force at impending rear skid. If you brake only the rear, at best, youd get maybe 200 lbs decel force at the point where rear skid is impending. Since the KLR is a tall bike with tall riders, and short wheelbase, the rear is less effective than on long low Harley. Hey, I don't know squat about actually riding a M/C, but am loaded for bear when it comes to some of this stuff. I contribute what I can, appreciation for what you all are teaching me.

--- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, Lujo Bauer wrote: > I don't think the KLRs brakes as bad as some have claimed, but every > time I don't ride the KLR for a couple of months I get freaked out the > first time I try to come to a rapid stop (my other bike has > servo-assisted brakes). > > Speaking of locking the rear, however: I think that's a somewhat common > problem (could be only after the caliper pins are no longer in tip-top > shape or something like that). My rear brake is pretty binary -- either > it's doing next to nothing or it's doing way too much. I've heard > several others complain of the same thing. > > -Lujo > A13 > > scttotis wrote: > > > > I was surprized at just how effective the klr front brake is after > > reading how bad it is prior to getting mine. I regularly quick stop > > and I also use both front and rear brakes. THe rear will always start > > to slide in these practice stops, even If I'm not braking the rear > > hard. Most all the weight is going to the front tire, so it's doing > > most all the braking on these stops, lightening the rear which will > > start to slide with a minimal brake app. . I'm thinking it's good to > > have a front brake that might not skid in a panic stop when you have > > super strength, and am thinking maybe it's not a design defect, but a > > design asset, KLR's version of antilock brakes, ha ha, ...from the > > good folks at Kawa. PS I weigh 240. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Mike Frey]

pdstreeter@... wrote:

>The KLR's front brake just isn't powerful enough for this. The KLR really >benefits from using both brakes. I rarely use the rear brake on my ZRX >1100, but it has double discs with 6 pot calipers. The ZRX has killer >brakes, but the KLR needs all the help it can get. Of course, I'm sure I >out-weigh you, so that makes a difference. > >Paul Streeter >

I have both the KLR and the ZRX (yep, the ZRX has a *way* more powerful front brake) and can do most of my braking on the KLR with front only - even to the point of locking it up, or a stoppie if conditions are right. Keith is correct in saying that new riders should learn to ride by using the front brake only (under controlled conditions), till they realize just how much of any bike's braking - even the KLR - is done by the front brake. As they used to teach in dirt riding school back in the 70s "USE THE FRONT BRAKE, DAMMIT". That statement was toned down a bit for the MSF courses in the mid 1970s. We're all spoiled by today's technology (which in the case of the KLR, is 1980s technology). Hop off of a KLR-650 and onto any 1970s big bore DP bike and tell me the brakes were better back then.

[klr6501995]

The klr's front brakes are adequate, and very weak my some bike standards. I commute daily and offroad 10-15 miles weekly in sandy Jax Fl. The front brakes alone are used 80% off road in the soft sand and 95% on road. I like to practice on wet parking lots and oil slicked center lanes. Locking the front wheel from a stop. The klr likes to skid the front wheel easier than burning out the rear. I almost only use the rear for control, weight shifting etc. No stoppies on a klr but the front tire can chirp. I would actually like a bit more stopping power for dry road conditions but believe the brakes are mild mannered like the motor and good for a newer rider. the rear is certainly more off a off/on like a another lioster mentioned.

--- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, Mike Frey wrote: > pdstreeter@m... wrote: > > >The KLR's front brake just isn't powerful enough for this. The KLR really > >benefits from using both brakes. I rarely use the rear brake on my ZRX > >1100, but it has double discs with 6 pot calipers. The ZRX has killer > >brakes, but the KLR needs all the help it can get. Of course, I'm sure I > >out-weigh you, so that makes a difference. > > > >Paul Streeter > > > I have both the KLR and the ZRX (yep, the ZRX has a *way* more powerful > front brake) and can do most of my braking on the KLR with front only - > even to the point of locking it up, or a stoppie if conditions are right. > > Keith is correct in saying that new riders should learn to ride by using > the front brake only (under controlled conditions), till they realize > just how much of any bike's braking - even the KLR - is done by the > front brake. > > As they used to teach in dirt riding school back in the 70s "USE THE > FRONT BRAKE, DAMMIT". > That statement was toned down a bit for the MSF courses in the mid 1970s. > > We're all spoiled by today's technology (which in the case of the KLR, > is 1980s technology). Hop off of a KLR-650 and onto any 1970s big bore > DP bike and tell me the brakes were better back then.

[GMac999]

Mike, I agree about the brakes. I have a '74 Kawasaki Bighorn 350. State of the art brakes, double leading shoe drum front and rear. If you don't use both brakes with it, you can take up to twice as long to stop. Also after a couple of hard stops in a row, you don't have hardly any brakes. I haven't ridden one of the new sport bikes, so that's all I have to compare it with. The KLR is a dream compared to it. Of course I have SS lines and Galfer Green pads on the front which makes it even better. Greg '95 A9 -----Original Message----- From: Mike Frey [mailto:mike21b@...] Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 4:37 PM To: KLR List Subject: Re: [DSN_KLR650] Re: A Story For You, Front Brake only? pdstreeter@... wrote:

>The KLR's front brake just isn't powerful enough for this. The KLR really >benefits from using both brakes. I rarely use the rear brake on my ZRX >1100, but it has double discs with 6 pot calipers. The ZRX has killer >brakes, but the KLR needs all the help it can get. Of course, I'm sure I >out-weigh you, so that makes a difference. > >Paul Streeter >

I have both the KLR and the ZRX (yep, the ZRX has a *way* more powerful front brake) and can do most of my braking on the KLR with front only - even to the point of locking it up, or a stoppie if conditions are right. Keith is correct in saying that new riders should learn to ride by using the front brake only (under controlled conditions), till they realize just how much of any bike's braking - even the KLR - is done by the front brake. As they used to teach in dirt riding school back in the 70s "USE THE FRONT BRAKE, DAMMIT". That statement was toned down a bit for the MSF courses in the mid 1970s. We're all spoiled by today's technology (which in the case of the KLR, is 1980s technology). Hop off of a KLR-650 and onto any 1970s big bore DP bike and tell me the brakes were better back then. Archive Quicksearch at: http://www.angelfire.com/ut/moab/klr650_data_search.html List sponsored by Dual Sport News at: www.dualsportnews.com List FAQ courtesy of Chris Krok at: www.bigcee.com/klr650faq.html Yahoo! Groups Links

[dooden]

--- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, "Keith Saltzer" wrote: SNIP > As you can see I am very passionate about this subject, and many more > concerning how to understand a bike and how it works. I was > surprized to learn that out of all the forces a bike can produce on > our bodies as we ride, braking hard is the highest. It fires up our > survival intincts pretty quick, and practicing can make a huge > difference in sorting out, and overcoming these strong forces and > help us to become better riders. > > MrMoose > A8 (Barbie and Ken special) Before you completely remove your rear brake and have it gold plated for your trophy room, might I suggest you take your KLR out and ride it where it will get dirty and tell me you do not need your rear brake. When I heard that dreadful *snap* with the resulting hanging lever as a side, riding home without a rear brake sucked, I use both brakes almost all the time, must be there for a reason right ? Off the pavement and through the woods, up and down the hills without a rear brake is not fun, sure downshifting helps but not when you are locking a wheel up to help balance yourself say at the crest of a hill. Dooden A15 Green Ape