[dsn_klr650] nklr - klr riders who have served or are servi

[CA Stu]

You are incorrect on this one. Take an empty 16 oz soda cup and lay it on its side and roll it. It will roll in a circle, not a straight line, right? the reason is the circumference of the bottom of the cup is less than the circumference of the top. So in one revolution, the larger end of the cup travels further than the small end, resulting in a turn. Your tires have a larger circumference on the middle than they do on the side, right? So if your contact patch is up the side of your tire (bike is leaned over), the opposite sides of the patch will have different circumferences relative to the wheel, and the difference will result in a turn. You don't have to turn the bars to turn a bike. So there. Thanks CA Stu PS Q: What's the hardest part about rollerblading? A: Telling your parents you're gay.

--- In DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com, erik wrote: > > > I don't think I was really arguing with your point... just being > engineeringly pedandic. > > erik > > > > >> Evidently a test was done where the handlebars of a bike were welded to > >> the frame so they couldn't turn, and a rider tried to steer the bike by > >> leaning alone. No turning happened, just leaning. > > > > But a motorcycle doesn't have welded handlebars... Sorry about the > > confusion, but obviously, you still need a mechanism that will allow the > > bike to turn. I meant that the leaning is what turns a bike with > > steering; not a rigid two-wheel vehicle. The fact that rigid wheels in > > a line will go straight when leaned is what lets you propel yourself on > > rollerblades, for instance. > > > > Krokko > >

[West Hovland]

Oh contraire! Check out this test done by Keith Code on the "No BS (body steer) Bike". The handle bars do have to turn with the rider and bike... but not necessarily in the same direction. [url=http://www.vf750fd.com/blurbs/countercode.htmlhttp://www.vf750fd.com/blurbs/countercode.html> West A15 "Grasshopper"

----- Original Message ----- From: CA Stu To: DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.comDSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, December 10, 2004 3:32 PM Subject: [DSN_klr650] Re: countersteering / not turning the bars You are incorrect on this one. Take an empty 16 oz soda cup and lay it on its side and roll it. It will roll in a circle, not a straight line, right? the reason is the circumference of the bottom of the cup is less than the circumference of the top. So in one revolution, the larger end of the cup travels further than the small end, resulting in a turn. Your tires have a larger circumference on the middle than they do on the side, right? So if your contact patch is up the side of your tire (bike is leaned over), the opposite sides of the patch will have different circumferences relative to the wheel, and the difference will result in a turn. You don't have to turn the bars to turn a bike. So there. Thanks CA Stu [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Alan L Henderson]

WEST HOVLAND wrote:

> Oh contraire! Check out this test done by Keith Code on the "No BS (body steer) Bike". The handle bars do have to turn with the rider and bike... but not necessarily in the same direction. > > [url=http://www.vf750fd.com/blurbs/countercode.htmlhttp://www.vf750fd.com/blurbs/countercode.html> > > West > A15 "Grasshopper"

This is a reply to all emails concerning Code's bike with the steering welded in place. After he uses this bike to demonstrate that leaning (shifting weight) doesn't work does he then take this same bike and use it to show how counter steering does work? Of course not. The steering is welded. This is an invalid demonstration and if Keith actually does this he should be ashamed of himself. Can shifting weight steer a bike? Of course it can, other wise riding a single track vehicle no hands would be impossible. Does counter steering work to steer a bike of course it does. Anyone can prove that it works by trying it. One could ride 1000 miles and never counter steer. Is it good to know how to counter steer? Yes, using it can change direction very fast, especially in emergency situations. Alan Henderson A13 Iowa

[Alan L Henderson]

Alan L Henderson wrote:

> WEST HOVLAND wrote: >

SNIP!

> Is it good to know how to counter steer? Yes, using it can change > direction very fast, especially in emergency situations. > > Alan Henderson A13 Iowa

I should have left West's comments out of the reply. The email was to the people in general that sited the welded steering bike. Sorry! Alan

[Eric L. Green]

On Mon, 13 Dec 2004, Alan L Henderson wrote:

> WEST HOVLAND wrote: > > Oh contraire! Check out this test done by Keith Code on the "No BS > > (body steer) Bike". The handle bars do have to turn with the rider and > > bike... but not necessarily in the same direction. > > > > [url=http://www.vf750fd.com/blurbs/countercode.htmlhttp://www.vf750fd.com/blurbs/countercode.html> > > This is a reply to all emails concerning Code's bike with the steering > welded in place. > > After he uses this bike to demonstrate that leaning (shifting weight) > doesn't work does he then take this same bike and use it to show how > counter steering does work? Of course not. The steering is welded.

Uhm, no, the steering is *NOT* welded. You obviously did NOT read the article. There is a *SECOND* set of handlebars that *ARE* welded. The stock steering is, however, quite there.

> This > is an invalid demonstration

Since you obviously didn't even *READ* any of the links that we posted or any of the physics discussions we have had here, I'm not even going to bother responding the the rest of the utter drivel that you continued with in your original posting. Really, you ought to read the stuff at the link before saying "Bah Humbug!". -E

[John Kokola]

-----Original Message----- From: Alan L Henderson "After he uses this bike to demonstrate that leaning (shifting weight) doesn't work does he then take this same bike and use it to show how counter steering does work? Of course not. The steering is welded. This is an invalid demonstration and if Keith actually does this he should be ashamed of himself." ***He does. The bike has two sets of handlebars -- one 'welded,' one functional. A good writeup regarding an editor's experience with riding this bike can be found in a recent article in Motorcycle Consumer News. "One could ride 1000 miles and never counter steer." *** Color me 'skeptical.' I would say that the vast majority of us countersteer into every direction change without realizing it. I've never ridden the No BS bike myself but I don't think that I could get the bike to change direction solely by shifting my weight. This is an interesting discussion BTW. --John Kokola

[Keith Saltzer]

Well, Eric may not want to respond, but I will.

> Does counter steering work to steer a bike of course it does.

Anyone can

> prove that it works by trying it.

Yes, it does work. It's the only way to steer a bike above a very low speed, about 5 mph.

> One could ride 1000 miles and never counter steer.

Sure they could, if they only went about 5 mph the whole way. No one is here is doing that.

> Is it good to know how to counter steer? Yes, using it can change > direction very fast, especially in emergency situations.

Counter steering is the only way to steer a bike going down the road. If someone doesn't know about it yet, that someone is lagging behind in very important knowledge about how to control a bike, and therefore are much more prone to having an accident when they're in a situation that requires them to change direction asap. They will also not be able to ride twisty roads that fast at all. MrMoose A8 (Barbie and Ken special)

[Alan L Henderson]

This is a reply to all emails concerning Code's bike with the steering welded in place. Ok, after actually reading the web site the bike has another set of handle bars that are solidly mounted to the frame. Can shifting weight steer a bike? Of course it can, other wise riding a single track vehicle no hands would be impossible. Have you ever seen a person ride a bicycle around the block without ever touching the handle bars? I have. I've done it. Explain how that is possible. Motorcycles and bicycles are both single track vehicles one just weighs more than the other and might have different steering geometry to make it more stable at speed. Does counter steering work to steer a bike of course it does. Anyone can prove that it works by trying it. Counter steering is important and everyone should learn how to do it effectively. One could ride 1000 miles and never counter steer, if there were no emergency turns involved. Is it good to know how to counter steer? Yes, using it can change direction very fast, especially in emergency situations. I'm not trying to prove these things by physics I am going by personal observation. What happens if you were to load 200lbs into the right side pannier of a KLR and go for a ride. Go ahead try it. Then take your hands of the handle bars for awhile. Try it, then get back to me with the carefully observed results. Alan Henderson A13 Iowa PS for those saying I'm ignoring physics I will quote Keith: " Do they work? ........... I'll leave it up to the tech boys to figure out the WHY of motorcycle counter- steering. Their job should be to provide a simple demonstration of how it works. The fact is that counter steering is still being argued in the halls of learning with slide rules, Physics formulas and calculators. Many theories exist but no conclusive statement that I know of as to why, has yet been reached. Argue on boys. Clear The Issue"

[Keith Saltzer]

>Have you ever seen a > person ride a bicycle around the block without ever touching the

handle

> bars? I have. I've done it. Explain how that is possible.

I have too. The bicycle is moving at a slow speed, and the wheels are much lighter, so there is a lot less gyroscopic effect to overcome. Get going down a hill though and it gets much harder to do that. You can also do the same thing on a motorcycle. It's just damn hard to do it slowly cause of the need to balance all that weight. But while going down the road at speed, have you ever watched what your front end does when your not holding onto the bars and you quickly lean over to one side or the other? On a bike, or motorcycle? If I'm not mistaken, the bars will jerk into a countersteer position first, then they will turn towards the direction of the lean and the bike will turn. Of course the faster you are going, the harder it is to get the bike to turn while just moving your weight around on top of the bike. Counter steering is also why SOME of us had such a problem learning to ride a bicycle. Remember how it went usually? You started off slow with someone pushing you, and you were steering the bike's bars left to go left, and right to go right. Then the speed picked up and all of the sudden you were turning right to go right and the bike just kept falling over to the left. That's cause you were now going fast enough for the countersteering to be needed and you were not taught that. Your brain just had to figure it out, which it will do. Some of us picked up on that more quickly than others, but it still worked that way. Now we are grown up and riding motorcycles. Now you REALLY need to know what is going on when you steer a bike. You of course could die. MrMoose A8 (Barbie and Ken special)

[Judson D. Jones]

--- In DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com, "Keith Saltzer" wrote:

> > Counter steering is the only way to steer a bike going down the > road. If someone doesn't know about it yet, that someone is lagging > behind in very important knowledge about how to control a bike, and > therefore are much more prone to having an accident when they're in a > situation that requires them to change direction asap. They will > also not be able to ride twisty roads that fast at all.

I think somebody has already pointed out that it is possible to ride a motorcycle no-handed. I can't recall ever having negotiated a series of twisties no-handed (I may be crazy, but I'm not stupid) but I have ridden down the road no-handed, sometimes for miles (maybe I'm stupid after all), changed lanes, and run through some sweepers at between 50-65 mph, steering only by weight shifts and a knee to the tank. Of course, that's on a BMW...