klr sighting thursday tacoma

[Ken]

Hi, me again asking another dumb question. I have a '97 650 that I did an oil chnage on last week. Ever since it's been running rough. There are THREE things different about it since I did the change: 1) Oil filter tube. There wasn't one in there before I did the change and I ordered one and put it in. 2) Oli kind and level. I put in 2.5 L of "Oil" and about 0.5L of "Mobile 1 Motorcycle" oil. I am about 100cc over the stated amount, but via the sight glass I am dead-on the "upper" mark. 3) Sheared off a filter cover bolt. The front bolt for the oil filter cover sheared off inside it's hole. The back one is tight and the whole thing is oil-tight (no leaks at all), but is that causing a preasure problem of some nature? The Symptoms: The bike starts and idles fine. It will almost stall when the trotle is opened (sometimes: the more vigorous the opening the more likely a near-stall). It never actually does, and then runs fine untill the next time I "whack it open". Any thoughts on this issue? Thanks for the help guys! Ken

[Jim Hubbard]

Dood I hope I'm wrong, but it sounds to me like you have a very nearly fubar'd machine. For one thing, sounds like you may have the oil filter tube in backwards, although I don't see how the bike made it very long without(!) one. The small end goes in towards the motor. The oil capacity is 2.5liters, so if you've put in 3.0liters, then you have about 500cc's of extra oil in it. Where did the extra 500cc's go? I have no clue unless you're reading the siteglass with the bike leaned over on the kickstand. It's a wonder you haven't blown the top end off the thing with that much oil in the crankcase. Why on earth did you mix dino oil and synthetic on purpose? Just pick one, OK? The filter cover is sealed by an o-ring, so wrenching down on the bolts that hold it in place won't make it any less likely to leak. I don't mean to sound harsh, but really, it sounds like you don't posess the mechanical aptitude to even attempt extracting the broken bolt. Take it to a machine shop or someone who knows what they're doing - that's IF your motor isn't completely ruined already. Sorry man. I hope it's fixable. Jim Hubbard

> -----Original Message----- > From: ken [mailto:ECDSG@...] > Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2004 9:46 AM > To: DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [DSN_klr650] Stalling since Oil change > > > Hi, > > me again asking another dumb question. I have a '97 650 that I did an oil > chnage on last week. Ever since it's been running rough. There are THREE > things different about it since I did the change: > 1) Oil filter tube. There wasn't one in there before I did the > change and I > ordered one and put it in. > 2) Oli kind and level. I put in 2.5 L of "Oil" and about 0.5L of > "Mobile 1 > Motorcycle" oil. I am about 100cc over the stated amount, but via > the sight > glass I am dead-on the "upper" mark. > 3) Sheared off a filter cover bolt. The front bolt for the oil > filter cover sheared > off inside it's hole. The back one is tight and the whole thing > is oil-tight (no > leaks at all), but is that causing a preasure problem of some nature? > > The Symptoms: > > The bike starts and idles fine. It will almost stall when the > trotle is opened > (sometimes: the more vigorous the opening the more likely a > near-stall). It > never actually does, and then runs fine untill the next time I > "whack it open". > > Any thoughts on this issue? > > > Thanks for the help guys! > > Ken > >

[Devon]

Man, that was harsh. You have some valid points, but definitely an alarmist outlook on things..... jimh@... wrote:

>Dood I hope I'm wrong, but it sounds to me like you have a very nearly >fubar'd machine. >

If it starts and idles without banging or grinding noises, it's probably nothing serious.

> For one thing, sounds like you may have the oil filter >tube in backwards, >

Can't happen. One end of the tube is smaller, the big end won't fit in the small hole.

>although I don't see how the bike made it very long >without(!) one. >

It'll run just fine without an oil filter, just not for a long time. Decades of British bikes had a centrifugal sludge trap in one of the crank webs, and a screen in the oil tank. No filter.

>The oil capacity >is 2.5liters, so if you've put in 3.0liters, then you have about 500cc's of >extra oil in it. Where did the extra 500cc's go? I have no clue unless >you're reading the siteglass with the bike leaned over on the kickstand. >It's a wonder you haven't blown the top end off the thing with that much oil >in the crankcase. >

Most likely it will cause a loss of horsepower due to the crank webs spinning through oil, lots of foaming, etc and eventually the extra oil will get misted out of the breather and burned through the engine. Maybe the plug is oil fouled from oil blowing out the breather.

> Why on earth did you mix dino oil and synthetic on >purpose? >

Because it's oil, and you can mix it. Nothing bizarre is going to happen. It's not the "right" way to do it, but it won't blow up the motor.

> The filter cover is sealed by an o-ring, so >wrenching down on the bolts that hold it in place won't make it any less >likely to leak. >

That's very true. The bolts just hold the cover in place, they need to be tightened enough to prevent them shaking loose and no more. Basically, any time you have steel bolts into aluminum threads, you bottom the bolt by hand then use a wrench to turn it another 1/8 turn or so. That's usually tight enough. If you are in doubt, use loctite.

>I don't mean to sound harsh, but really, it sounds like you >don't posess the mechanical aptitude to even attempt extracting the broken >bolt. >

I would have phrased it "you'd be better off having a machine shop remove the screw stub since you seem to be new at bike mechanics", but yeah. Devon

[Ken]

Well, he was right about one thing: I don't really want to try to get that bolt out! I am 100ccs over the recomended level. I said it wrong. I guess that puts me at 2.6L. As far as mixing goes, that's not a big deal, it's not like half and half or any thing, just that last little bit was synth. Nice to know about the O-ring that the DPO must have thrown out wiht the filter tube which, BTW is indeed inserted correctly, thank you very much. The cover DOES NOT LEAK (at all: which I find kinda wierd). I drained the float bowl and it didn't help. The bike backfired a couple of times and ran fine, untill I turned it off. I started it againe and it surged a little then ran fine. I cleaned out the NASTY air filter and will drain out a little oil tomorow too and see if that makes her all better. Thank goodnes I have my DRZ. It's a better bike than the KLR any way. ken

--- In DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com, Devon wrote: > Man, that was harsh. You have some valid points, but definitely an > alarmist outlook on things..... > > jimh@x... wrote: > > >Dood I hope I'm wrong, but it sounds to me like you have a very nearly > >fubar'd machine. > > > If it starts and idles without banging or grinding noises, it's probably > nothing serious. > > > For one thing, sounds like you may have the oil filter > >tube in backwards, > > > Can't happen. One end of the tube is smaller, the big end won't fit in > the small hole. > > >although I don't see how the bike made it very long > >without(!) one. > > > It'll run just fine without an oil filter, just not for a long time. > Decades of British bikes had a centrifugal sludge trap in one of the > crank webs, and a screen in the oil tank. No filter. > > >The oil capacity > >is 2.5liters, so if you've put in 3.0liters, then you have about 500cc's of > >extra oil in it. Where did the extra 500cc's go? I have no clue unless > >you're reading the siteglass with the bike leaned over on the kickstand. > >It's a wonder you haven't blown the top end off the thing with that much oil > >in the crankcase. > > > Most likely it will cause a loss of horsepower due to the crank webs > spinning through oil, lots of foaming, etc and eventually the extra oil > will get misted out of the breather and burned through the engine. Maybe > the plug is oil fouled from oil blowing out the breather. > > > Why on earth did you mix dino oil and synthetic on > >purpose? > > > Because it's oil, and you can mix it. Nothing bizarre is going to > happen. It's not the "right" way to do it, but it won't blow up the motor. > > > The filter cover is sealed by an o-ring, so > >wrenching down on the bolts that hold it in place won't make it any less > >likely to leak. > > > That's very true. The bolts just hold the cover in place, they need to > be tightened enough to prevent them shaking loose and no more. > Basically, any time you have steel bolts into aluminum threads, you > bottom the bolt by hand then use a wrench to turn it another 1/8 turn or > so. That's usually tight enough. If you are in doubt, use loctite. > > >I don't mean to sound harsh, but really, it sounds like you > >don't posess the mechanical aptitude to even attempt extracting the broken > >bolt. > > > I would have phrased it "you'd be better off having a machine shop > remove the screw stub since you seem to be new at bike mechanics", but > yeah. > > Devon

[Devon]

ECDSG@... wrote:

> Nice to know about the O-ring that >the DPO must have thrown out wiht the filter tube which, BTW is indeed >inserted correctly, thank you very much. The cover DOES NOT LEAK (at all: >which I find kinda wierd). >

That's normal, when an o-ring is fitted in that manner the pressure of the oil filter chamber walls on the edges of the oring are what makes the seal, the two bolts are just there to hold the cover on. If the o-ring was fitted so the edge of the cover compressed it into its groove, then you'd have a problem.

>I drained the float bowl and it didn't help. The bike backfired a couple of times >and ran fine, untill I turned it off. I started it againe and it surged a little then >ran fine. I cleaned out the NASTY air filter and will drain out a little oil tomorow >too and see if that makes her all better. >

The oil isn't a big deal. If you have it anywhere near the top of the sight glass (with the bike held vertical) then it has nothing to do with the stalling problem. I would check..... 1- fresh spark plug, with clean connections in the ignition system (plug boot, wire, coil etc) 2- clean and properly oiled air filter 3- clean carburetor 4- enough fuel in the tank 5- no kinks in the vacuum line 6- carb bowl vent hose not blocked. 7- make sure the filter screens are on the ends of the fuel tap pickup hoses. 8- make sure there is no dirt in the float bowl shutoff valve. Check the fuel level in the bowl, if it's flooding then that could be your problem.

>Thank goodnes I have my DRZ. It's a better bike than the KLR any way. >

My riding buddy has a KLX300 and a DRZ. I've ridden the DRZ, it's pretty nice but I actually ride my KLR the same places he does. He's had problems with the DRZ too, they're different more than they're better. Devon

[Thor Lancelot Simon]

On Thu, Jul 01, 2004 at 09:06:09PM -0400, Jim Hubbard wrote:

> > Why on earth did you mix dino oil and synthetic on purpose? Just > pick one, OK?

Leaving the rest of it aside, what rational reason do you have to believe that this will actually do any harm? Thor

[rsanders30117]

The oil filter must be on the suction side of the pump. With the large surface area of the filter cover, virtually any pressure should pop the cover off if it had only one screw. With this in mind, a KLR will run merrily along without the filter center tube. This just mean that essentially there was no filtering, the oil just by passed the filter around the end. The engine problems sound clearly unrelated to the oil change & are probably carburetion issues.

--- In DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com, Devon wrote: > > > ECDSG@c... wrote: > > > Nice to know about the O-ring that > >the DPO must have thrown out wiht the filter tube which, BTW is indeed > >inserted correctly, thank you very much. The cover DOES NOT LEAK (at all: > >which I find kinda wierd). > > > That's normal, when an o-ring is fitted in that manner the pressure of > the oil filter chamber walls on the edges of the oring are what makes > the seal, the two bolts are just there to hold the cover on. If the > o-ring was fitted so the edge of the cover compressed it into its > groove, then you'd have a problem. > > >I drained the float bowl and it didn't help. The bike backfired a couple of times > >and ran fine, untill I turned it off. I started it againe and it surged a little then > >ran fine. I cleaned out the NASTY air filter and will drain out a little oil tomorow > >too and see if that makes her all better. > > > The oil isn't a big deal. If you have it anywhere near the top of the > sight glass (with the bike held vertical) then it has nothing to do with > the stalling problem. > > I would check..... > > 1- fresh spark plug, with clean connections in the ignition system (plug > boot, wire, coil etc) > > 2- clean and properly oiled air filter > > 3- clean carburetor > > 4- enough fuel in the tank > > 5- no kinks in the vacuum line > > 6- carb bowl vent hose not blocked. > > 7- make sure the filter screens are on the ends of the fuel tap pickup > hoses. > > 8- make sure there is no dirt in the float bowl shutoff valve. Check the > fuel level in the bowl, if it's flooding then that could be your problem. > > >Thank goodnes I have my DRZ. It's a better bike than the KLR any way. > > > My riding buddy has a KLX300 and a DRZ. I've ridden the DRZ, it's pretty > nice but I actually ride my KLR the same places he does. He's had > problems with the DRZ too, they're different more than they're better. > > Devon

[dumbazz650]

--- In DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com, "rsanders30117" wrote:

> The oil filter must be on the suction side of the pump. With the > large surface area of the filter cover, virtually any pressure

should

> pop the cover off if it had only one screw. With this in mind, a

KLR

> will run merrily along without the filter center tube. This just > mean that essentially there was no filtering, the oil just by

passed

> the filter around the end. > > The engine problems sound clearly unrelated to the oil change & are > probably carburetion issues. > >

IIRC, the oil goes from pickup tube goes from near the bottom of the sump, up to the oil screen, then into the pump where it pressurized, and onto to oil filter. It then goes into the bypass relief valve, and finally onto the oil galleys to supply the engine. So yeah, I was thinking the filter area is under pressure as it's just downstream from the pump. Modest pressue, like 12-20 psi. There's a procedure for checking the pressure, by installing a guage onto the little At least one KLR engine was destroyed because the assembly line crew forgot to put the oil screen into the engine at the factory. The doohickey broke, and pieces of it got sucked into the oil pump. The oil pump was destroyed, and the motor began running oil-starved -for some brief period of time. Anyone have their repair manual handy and could confirm this? There is the one diagram that shows the oil circuit. MarkB

[Devon]

MBAKARICH@... wrote:

>--- In DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com, "rsanders30117" >wrote: > > >>The oil filter must be on the suction side of the pump. >> >IIRC, the oil goes from pickup tube goes from near the bottom of the >sump, up to the oil screen, then into the pump where it pressurized, >and onto to oil filter. >

This is correct. The oil pump is NOT protected by the filter, as evident in the photos of the broken oil pump from the motor you mentioned. There is a note with an arrow showing the piece of the spring. http://www.devonjarvisphoto.com/posted/KLR650/doohickey/html/worst_case_scenario.html A roller-bearing motor doesn't require much pressure at all. The cam bearings are the only plain bearings in the motor (not counting the bronze bush for the first starter idler gear). Devon

[rsanders30117]

When I wrote that, I had my doubts about the filter being on the suction side. What you say makes sense but still, without the filter tube, the oil will take the path of least resistance & by pass around the filter. Hmmm, that would be a good spot to drill & tap for a pressure port.

--- In DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com, Devon wrote: > > > MBAKARICH@Y... wrote: > > >--- In DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com, "rsanders30117" > >wrote: > > > > > >>The oil filter must be on the suction side of the pump. > >> > > >IIRC, the oil goes from pickup tube goes from near the bottom of the > >sump, up to the oil screen, then into the pump where it pressurized, > >and onto to oil filter. > > > > This is correct. The oil pump is NOT protected by the filter, as evident > in the photos of the broken oil pump from the motor you mentioned. There > is a note with an arrow showing the piece of the spring. > > http://www.devonjarvisphoto.com/posted/KLR650/doohickey/html/worst_cas e_scenario.html > > A roller-bearing motor doesn't require much pressure at all. The cam > bearings are the only plain bearings in the motor (not counting the > bronze bush for the first starter idler gear). > > Devon