russel braided steel lines - for 84 klr 600

[pudens@telepath.com]

3 emails from the GL1800 list, thought it a pretty good analysis for a nontechnical person like myself. I am a NASA Engineer atMarshal Space Flight Center in Huntsville, Alabama. My field of work is Tribology which is the study of friction, wear, and lubrication. In our spare time, our group collects and tests different motor oils using the Shell Four Ball tester. This tester tests the extreme pressure properties of oils. These areas in a motor are cam to lifter contacts, valve stem to guild, and piston skirts. Over the years we have found synthetic bases oils to out perform mineral based oils by a large margin. We test the oils new, after 1000 miles, 2000 miles, and up to 10,000 miles. In a nut shell, we found that synthetic oils have better wear properties after being run 10,000 miles then mineral grade oils new. Which synthetic do we use? First any you will benefit from any synthetic, but we use Mobil 1. Mobil by far puts more research dollars in motor oils then any other company. They are also aggressive in racing. Other notes on motor oils. Do not run a multi grade oil (10w-30) more then 1000 to 2000 miles - depending on your driving habits. This is because a 10w30 oil starts its life as a 10 weight oil and large polymer chains are added to get the 30 rating. These chains break down very quickly which produces small chains with an open electron charge at the ends. These ends attract grim and form sludge. Do not run synthetics in a new rebuild. A new engine needs the added friction allowed by mineral oils to set the rings properly. Chevy found this out on the corvette. These cars came from the factory with Mobil 1 and owners brought them back because of smoking and oil consumption (rings did not seat). Run a good single weight oil for the first 2000 miles. We found Havaline 30 to be a good mineral oil - in fact we use it for our standard. The reason Mobil 1 can safely be run for 10,000 miles is because the additive package is well engineered to isolate grim and hold it in suspension. This also is why Mobil 1 is expensive. You know - you get what you pay for. I know there are a lot of questions on motor oils. You can e-mail me for more information or search the web for more details on synthetics. Your Roadster deserves the best - run synthetic oils. _______________________________________________________ I have received a lot of comments on oils, so I will try and cover some of the concerns/comments. I listed multi grade oil break down at 1000 to 2000 miles. This is for the junk oils found at circle K for a dollar. A good name brand oil will last 3000 miles without too much break down. This is for mineral grade oils - synthetic oils meet government viscosity tests for ratings without adding thickeners like polymer chains. Guys here at work run synthetics in motors that have 140,000 to 170,000 miles on them without any more oil consumption them normal. I believe that you will get a slight increase in consumption in older motors because the synthetic are very slippery and can get by old rings easier. In these cases going to a 15w-50 may help, but this is not a reason not to use synthetics. Older motors need the extra protection. At running temperature a synthetic will maintain its viscosity, where a mineral oil viscosity is DRASTICALLY REDUCED. A test on how well synthetics work at different temperature can be done in your home. Get a quart of your favorite mineral oil and a quart of a synthetic. Put a cup a each oil in a glass or paper cup and stick in the freezer over night. In the morning try and pour the oils out. Next test: DO THIS OUTSIDE. On an old camp stove put a ? of the synthetic oil in an old frying pan and put it on the stove on the highest heat setting. Cook for 30 minutes. Now cook your oil for 30 minutes. At this point you will see why you cooked the synthetic first. As the oil cooks pour some out to see the changes in viscosity between the oils. Part 3 on oil additive coming soon. I need to back to NASA work. _______________________________________________________ Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 07:01:29 Hey all - The question of change intervals and synthetic oil has come up. As a side at work we run oil tests using the Shell Four Ball test rig. This tester was developed by Shell oil to test the extreme wear properties of motor oils - cams, piston skirts etc. It consists of three, = inch balls held in a triangular pattern in a cup with oil heated to 165 degrees. A forth ball is lowered to the center of the three balls and loaded to 40 KG. The ball is then rotated 600 RPM for one hour. After the test the wear scar is measured on the three stationary balls. The bigger the scar the lower the extreme wear property of the oil is. We use Havoline 30 wt for a base line. We use this oil because engineers from the past liked this oil, so we have a large data base. Looking at data shows new Havoline 30 wt has a wear scar of .0165 inches. New Mobil 1 has a .0145 inch scar. May not seem like a lot of difference, but it is. Havoline 30 at 3000 miles has a wear scar of .020 inches and Mobil 1 at 4000 miles has a .0164 scar. Remember - the bigger the badder. 3000 miles is as long as anyone was willing to run Havoline 30 wt, so its data stops here. Mobil 1 at 6000 miles is .0167, at 8000 miles is .0188, and at 10,000 miles is .0194. So, at 10,000 miles Mobil 1 has better lubrication properties in the critical areas in your motor then a good 30 wt. All mineral oils follow Havoline pretty close - major brands. Some off brands have a .020 wear scar new. Multi-grades generally have a larger wear scar as well. This data was from a 5.0 Ford Mustang. Every motor will be slightly different, but not much. So, synthetic can handle long run intervals. But, that is part of the story. You have contaminates to deal with. This is where the additive package comes in play. This is the expensive part of oils and the reason synthetics are high priced. Because of the long run intervals of synthetic, they must have a vastly superior additive package - and they do. Proof of this is to take 3000 mile dino oil and look at it in a glass jar - then do the same for Mobil 1. The Mobil 1 will look new compared to the dino oil. I run Mobil 1 in my new cars to the longest manufactures oil change interval - usually 7000 miles. This will keep the warranty happy. In my Roadster I change it once a year regardless of mileage. It run my Roadster about 5000 miles a year. Most people at work run synthetics and do the same. We have a bunch of cars in the lot that have over 200,000 miles on them and going strong. I (my wife) never keeps one that long. I run 10w-30 Mobil 1 in my new Roadster motors (after break-in). Older motors get 15w-50 because the tolerances are larger. Because synthetics don't thin down like mineral oils do at temperature, I would be careful running 15w-50 in a motor with a high volume oil pump. By doing so you may run into cavitation problems - oil gage jumping wildly. Drag racers experience this often at high RPM. Drop a wt and it will clear up. I checked the auto parts stores last night and could not find a zero wt Mobil 1. It was about 2 years ago they were talking introducing this oil, so apparently they have in some markets. I stand corrected. Testing another "magic" oil additive today. It looks and smells like linseed oil! This should be fun. Additives are another subject all together. Another day, but never tested a good one - none- zip - zero don't waste your money. Sorry for being soo long. I like synthetics (obviously). If you have been to the conferences, seen all the tests and data, and read the lubrication journals you would run nothing other then synthetics.

[Dan Oaks]

Good input, pudens! -- bierdo PS: I hate long polymer chains. I find them in my nose every once in a while. +++++++++++++++++++++ pudens@... wrote:

> 3 emails from the GL1800 list, thought it a pretty good analysis for > a nontechnical person like myself. > > I am a NASA Engineer atMarshal Space Flight Center in Huntsville, > Alabama. My field of work is Tribology which is the study of > friction, wear, and lubrication. In our spare time, our group > collects and tests different motor oils using the Shell Four Ball > tester. This tester tests the extreme pressure properties of oils. > These areas in a motor are cam to lifter contacts, valve stem to > guild, and piston skirts. Over the years we have found synthetic > bases oils to out perform mineral based oils by a large margin. We > test the oils new, after 1000 miles, 2000 miles, and up to 10,000 > miles. In a nut shell, we found that synthetic oils have better wear > properties after being run 10,000 miles then mineral grade oils new. > Which synthetic do we use? First any you will benefit from any > synthetic, but we use Mobil 1. Mobil by far puts more research > dollars in motor oils then any other company. They are also > aggressive in racing. > > Other notes on motor oils. > > Do not run a multi grade oil (10w-30) more then 1000 to 2000 miles - > depending on your driving habits. > This is because a 10w30 oil starts its life as a 10 weight oil and > large polymer chains are added to get the 30 rating. These chains > break down very quickly which produces small chains with an open > electron charge at the ends. These ends attract grim and form sludge. > > Do not run synthetics in a new rebuild. A new engine needs the added > friction allowed by mineral oils to set the rings properly. Chevy > found this out on the corvette. These cars came from the factory > with > Mobil 1 and owners brought them back because of smoking and oil > consumption (rings did not seat). Run a good single weight oil for > the first 2000 miles. We found Havaline 30 to be a good mineral oil > - > in fact we use it for our standard. > > The reason Mobil 1 can safely be run for 10,000 miles is because the > additive package is well engineered to isolate grim and hold it in > suspension. This also is why Mobil 1 is expensive. You know - you > get what you pay for. > > I know there are a lot of questions on motor oils. You can e-mail me > for more information or search the web for more details on > synthetics. > Your Roadster deserves the best - run synthetic oils. > _______________________________________________________ > > I have received a lot of comments on oils, so I will try and cover > some of the concerns/comments. > > I listed multi grade oil break down at 1000 to 2000 miles. This is > for the junk oils found at circle K for a dollar. A good name brand > oil will last 3000 miles without too much break down. This is for > mineral grade oils - synthetic oils meet government viscosity tests > for ratings without adding thickeners like polymer chains. > > Guys here at work run synthetics in motors that have 140,000 to > 170,000 miles on them without any more oil consumption them normal. > I believe that you will get a slight increase in consumption in older > motors because the synthetic are very slippery and can get by old > rings easier. In these cases going to a 15w-50 may help, but this is > not a reason not to use synthetics. > Older motors need the extra protection. At running temperature a > synthetic will maintain its viscosity, where a mineral oil viscosity > is DRASTICALLY REDUCED. > > A test on how well synthetics work at different temperature can be > done in your home. Get a quart of your favorite mineral oil and a > quart of a synthetic. Put a cup a each oil in a glass or paper cup > and stick in the freezer over night. In the morning try and pour the > oils out. Next test: DO THIS OUTSIDE. On an old camp stove put a ? > of the synthetic oil in an old frying pan and put it on the stove on > the highest heat setting. Cook for 30 minutes. Now cook your oil > for 30 minutes. At this point you will see why you cooked the > synthetic first. As the oil cooks pour some out to see the changes in > viscosity between the oils. > > Part 3 on oil additive coming soon. I need to back to NASA work. > _______________________________________________________ > >

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Greg Paul]

Great Info!!! That should settle a lot of discussions. Greg in Dallas

--- In DSN_klr650@y..., pudens@t... wrote: > 3 emails from the GL1800 list, thought it a pretty good analysis for > a nontechnical person like myself. > > I am a NASA Engineer atMarshal Space Flight Center in Huntsville, > Alabama. My field of work is Tribology which is the study of > friction, wear, and lubrication. In our spare time, our group > collects and tests different motor oils using the Shell Four Ball > tester. This tester tests the extreme pressure properties of oils. > These areas in a motor are cam to lifter contacts, valve stem to > guild, and piston skirts. Over the years we have found synthetic > bases oils to out perform mineral based oils by a large margin. We > test the oils new, after 1000 miles, 2000 miles, and up to 10,000 > miles. In a nut shell, we found that synthetic oils have better wear > properties after being run 10,000 miles then mineral grade oils new. > Which synthetic do we use? First any you will benefit from any > synthetic, but we use Mobil 1. Mobil by far puts more research > dollars in motor oils then any other company. They are also > aggressive in racing. > > Other notes on motor oils. > > Do not run a multi grade oil (10w-30) more then 1000 to 2000 miles - > depending on your driving habits. > This is because a 10w30 oil starts its life as a 10 weight oil and > large polymer chains are added to get the 30 rating. These chains > break down very quickly which produces small chains with an open > electron charge at the ends. These ends attract grim and form sludge. > > Do not run synthetics in a new rebuild. A new engine needs the added > friction allowed by mineral oils to set the rings properly. Chevy > found this out on the corvette. These cars came from the factory > with > Mobil 1 and owners brought them back because of smoking and oil > consumption (rings did not seat). Run a good single weight oil for > the first 2000 miles. We found Havaline 30 to be a good mineral oil > - > in fact we use it for our standard. > > The reason Mobil 1 can safely be run for 10,000 miles is because the > additive package is well engineered to isolate grim and hold it in > suspension. This also is why Mobil 1 is expensive. You know - you > get what you pay for. > > I know there are a lot of questions on motor oils. You can e-mail me > for more information or search the web for more details on > synthetics. > Your Roadster deserves the best - run synthetic oils. > _______________________________________________________ > > I have received a lot of comments on oils, so I will try and cover > some of the concerns/comments. > > I listed multi grade oil break down at 1000 to 2000 miles. This is > for the junk oils found at circle K for a dollar. A good name brand > oil will last 3000 miles without too much break down. This is for > mineral grade oils - synthetic oils meet government viscosity tests > for ratings without adding thickeners like polymer chains. > > Guys here at work run synthetics in motors that have 140,000 to > 170,000 miles on them without any more oil consumption them normal. > I believe that you will get a slight increase in consumption in older > motors because the synthetic are very slippery and can get by old > rings easier. In these cases going to a 15w-50 may help, but this is > not a reason not to use synthetics. > Older motors need the extra protection. At running temperature a > synthetic will maintain its viscosity, where a mineral oil viscosity > is DRASTICALLY REDUCED. > > A test on how well synthetics work at different temperature can be > done in your home. Get a quart of your favorite mineral oil and a > quart of a synthetic. Put a cup a each oil in a glass or paper cup > and stick in the freezer over night. In the morning try and pour the > oils out. Next test: DO THIS OUTSIDE. On an old camp stove put a ? > of the synthetic oil in an old frying pan and put it on the stove on > the highest heat setting. Cook for 30 minutes. Now cook your oil > for 30 minutes. At this point you will see why you cooked the > synthetic first. As the oil cooks pour some out to see the changes in > viscosity between the oils. > > Part 3 on oil additive coming soon. I need to back to NASA work. > _______________________________________________________ > > Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 07:01:29 > > Hey all - > > The question of change intervals and synthetic oil has come up. As a > side at work we run oil tests using the Shell Four Ball test rig. > This tester was developed by Shell oil to test the extreme wear > properties of motor oils - cams, piston skirts etc. It consists of > three, = inch balls held in a triangular pattern in a cup with oil > heated to 165 degrees. A forth ball is lowered to the center of the > three balls and loaded to 40 KG. The ball is then rotated 600 RPM > for one hour. After the test the wear scar is measured on the three > stationary balls. The bigger the scar the lower the extreme wear > property of the oil is. We use Havoline 30 wt for a base line. We > use this oil because engineers from the past liked this oil, so we > have a large data base. > > Looking at data shows new Havoline 30 wt has a wear scar of .0165 > inches. New Mobil 1 has a .0145 inch scar. May not seem like a lot > of difference, but it is. Havoline 30 at 3000 miles has a wear scar > of .020 inches and Mobil 1 at 4000 miles has a .0164 scar. Remember - > the bigger the badder. 3000 miles is as long as anyone was willing > to run Havoline 30 wt, so its data stops here. Mobil 1 at 6000 miles > is .0167, at 8000 miles is .0188, and at 10,000 miles is .0194. So, > at 10,000 miles Mobil 1 has better lubrication properties in the > critical areas in your motor then a good 30 wt. All mineral oils > follow Havoline pretty close - major brands. Some off brands have a > .020 wear scar new. Multi-grades generally have a larger wear scar > as well. This data was from a 5.0 Ford Mustang. Every motor will be > slightly different, but not much. > > So, synthetic can handle long run intervals. But, that is part of the > story. You have contaminates to deal with. This is where the additive > package comes in play. This is the expensive part of oils and the > reason synthetics are high priced. Because of the long run intervals > of synthetic, they must have a vastly superior additive package - and > they do. Proof of this is to take 3000 mile dino oil and look at it > in a glass jar - then do the same for Mobil 1. The Mobil 1 will look > new compared to the dino oil. I run Mobil 1 in my new cars to the > longest manufactures oil change interval - usually 7000 miles. This > will keep the warranty happy. In my Roadster I change it once a year > regardless of mileage. It run my Roadster about 5000 miles a year. > Most people at work run synthetics and do the same. We have a bunch > of cars in the lot that have over 200,000 miles on them and going > strong. I (my wife) never keeps one that long. > > I run 10w-30 Mobil 1 in my new Roadster motors (after break-in). > Older motors get 15w-50 because the tolerances are larger. Because > synthetics don't thin down like mineral oils do at temperature, I > would be careful running 15w-50 in a motor with a high volume oil > pump. By doing so you may run into cavitation problems - oil gage > jumping wildly. Drag racers experience this often at high RPM. Drop > a wt and it will clear up. > > I checked the auto parts stores last night and could not find a zero > wt Mobil 1. It was about 2 years ago they were talking introducing > this oil, so apparently they have in some markets. I stand > corrected. > > Testing another "magic" oil additive today. It looks and smells like > linseed oil! This should be fun. Additives are another subject all > together. Another day, but never tested a good one - none- zip - > zero > > don't waste your money. > > Sorry for being soo long. I like synthetics (obviously). If you > have > been to the conferences, seen all the tests and data, and read the > lubrication journals you would run nothing other then synthetics.

[punkynlew@hotmail.com]

Hi Greg: I didn't see anything to indicate this oil test was performed on motorcycle engines. To my understanding, there is a difference between how well the oil works in autos and in our motorcycles, since our motorcycles use the same oil in the tranny and the clutch, which is tougher on the oil (the reason for motorcycle specific oils), and cars don't. Please clarify if you can. Punky & Lew (confused with head cocked)

--- In DSN_klr650@y..., "Greg Paul" wrote: > Great Info!!! > That should settle a lot of discussions. > > Greg in Dallas > > > > --- In DSN_klr650@y..., pudens@t... wrote: > > 3 emails from the GL1800 list, thought it a pretty good analysis > for > > a nontechnical person like myself. > > > > I am a NASA Engineer atMarshal Space Flight Center in Huntsville, > > Alabama. My field of work is Tribology which is the study of > > friction, wear, and lubrication. In our spare time, our group > > collects and tests different motor oils using the Shell Four Ball > > tester. This tester tests the extreme pressure properties of > oils. > > These areas in a motor are cam to lifter contacts, valve stem to > > guild, and piston skirts. Over the years we have found synthetic > > bases oils to out perform mineral based oils by a large margin. > We > > test the oils new, after 1000 miles, 2000 miles, and up to 10,000 > > miles. In a nut shell, we found that synthetic oils have better > wear > > properties after being run 10,000 miles then mineral grade oils > new. > > Which synthetic do we use? First any you will benefit from any > > synthetic, but we use Mobil 1. Mobil by far puts more research > > dollars in motor oils then any other company. They are also > > aggressive in racing. > > > > Other notes on motor oils. > > > > Do not run a multi grade oil (10w-30) more then 1000 to 2000 miles - > > depending on your driving habits. > > This is because a 10w30 oil starts its life as a 10 weight oil and > > large polymer chains are added to get the 30 rating. These chains > > break down very quickly which produces small chains with an open > > electron charge at the ends. These ends attract grim and form > sludge. > > > > Do not run synthetics in a new rebuild. A new engine needs the > added > > friction allowed by mineral oils to set the rings properly. Chevy > > found this out on the corvette. These cars came from the factory > > with > > Mobil 1 and owners brought them back because of smoking and oil > > consumption (rings did not seat). Run a good single weight oil for > > the first 2000 miles. We found Havaline 30 to be a good mineral oil > > - > > in fact we use it for our standard. > > > > The reason Mobil 1 can safely be run for 10,000 miles is because the > > additive package is well engineered to isolate grim and hold it in > > suspension. This also is why Mobil 1 is expensive. You know - you > > get what you pay for. > > > > I know there are a lot of questions on motor oils. You can e- mail > me > > for more information or search the web for more details on > > synthetics. > > Your Roadster deserves the best - run synthetic oils. > > _______________________________________________________ > > > > I have received a lot of comments on oils, so I will try and cover > > some of the concerns/comments. > > > > I listed multi grade oil break down at 1000 to 2000 miles. This is > > for the junk oils found at circle K for a dollar. A good name > brand > > oil will last 3000 miles without too much break down. This is for > > mineral grade oils - synthetic oils meet government viscosity tests > > for ratings without adding thickeners like polymer chains. > > > > Guys here at work run synthetics in motors that have 140,000 to > > 170,000 miles on them without any more oil consumption them > normal. > > I believe that you will get a slight increase in consumption in > older > > motors because the synthetic are very slippery and can get by old > > rings easier. In these cases going to a 15w-50 may help, but this > is > > not a reason not to use synthetics. > > Older motors need the extra protection. At running temperature a > > synthetic will maintain its viscosity, where a mineral oil > viscosity > > is DRASTICALLY REDUCED. > > > > A test on how well synthetics work at different temperature can be > > done in your home. Get a quart of your favorite mineral oil and a > > quart of a synthetic. Put a cup a each oil in a glass or paper cup > > and stick in the freezer over night. In the morning try and pour > the > > oils out. Next test: DO THIS OUTSIDE. On an old camp stove put > a ? > > of the synthetic oil in an old frying pan and put it on the stove > on > > the highest heat setting. Cook for 30 minutes. Now cook your oil > > for 30 minutes. At this point you will see why you cooked the > > synthetic first. As the oil cooks pour some out to see the changes > in > > viscosity between the oils. > > > > Part 3 on oil additive coming soon. I need to back to NASA work. > > _______________________________________________________ > > > > Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 07:01:29 > > > > Hey all - > > > > The question of change intervals and synthetic oil has come up. As > a > > side at work we run oil tests using the Shell Four Ball test rig. > > This tester was developed by Shell oil to test the extreme wear > > properties of motor oils - cams, piston skirts etc. It consists of > > three, = inch balls held in a triangular pattern in a cup with oil > > heated to 165 degrees. A forth ball is lowered to the center of > the > > three balls and loaded to 40 KG. The ball is then rotated 600 RPM > > for one hour. After the test the wear scar is measured on the > three > > stationary balls. The bigger the scar the lower the extreme wear > > property of the oil is. We use Havoline 30 wt for a base line. We > > use this oil because engineers from the past liked this oil, so we > > have a large data base. > > > > Looking at data shows new Havoline 30 wt has a wear scar of .0165 > > inches. New Mobil 1 has a .0145 inch scar. May not seem like a lot > > of difference, but it is. Havoline 30 at 3000 miles has a wear > scar > > of .020 inches and Mobil 1 at 4000 miles has a .0164 scar. > Remember - > > the bigger the badder. 3000 miles is as long as anyone was willing > > to run Havoline 30 wt, so its data stops here. Mobil 1 at 6000 > miles > > is .0167, at 8000 miles is .0188, and at 10,000 miles is .0194. > So, > > at 10,000 miles Mobil 1 has better lubrication properties in the > > critical areas in your motor then a good 30 wt. All mineral oils > > follow Havoline pretty close - major brands. Some off brands have > a > > .020 wear scar new. Multi-grades generally have a larger wear scar > > as well. This data was from a 5.0 Ford Mustang. Every motor will > be > > slightly different, but not much. > > > > So, synthetic can handle long run intervals. But, that is part of > the > > story. You have contaminates to deal with. This is where the > additive > > package comes in play. This is the expensive part of oils and the > > reason synthetics are high priced. Because of the long run > intervals > > of synthetic, they must have a vastly superior additive package - > and > > they do. Proof of this is to take 3000 mile dino oil and look at > it > > in a glass jar - then do the same for Mobil 1. The Mobil 1 will > look > > new compared to the dino oil. I run Mobil 1 in my new cars to the > > longest manufactures oil change interval - usually 7000 miles. > This > > will keep the warranty happy. In my Roadster I change it once a > year > > regardless of mileage. It run my Roadster about 5000 miles a > year. > > Most people at work run synthetics and do the same. We have a > bunch > > of cars in the lot that have over 200,000 miles on them and going > > strong. I (my wife) never keeps one that long. > > > > I run 10w-30 Mobil 1 in my new Roadster motors (after break-in). > > Older motors get 15w-50 because the tolerances are larger. Because > > synthetics don't thin down like mineral oils do at temperature, I > > would be careful running 15w-50 in a motor with a high volume oil > > pump. By doing so you may run into cavitation problems - oil gage > > jumping wildly. Drag racers experience this often at high RPM. > Drop > > a wt and it will clear up. > > > > I checked the auto parts stores last night and could not find a > zero > > wt Mobil 1. It was about 2 years ago they were talking introducing > > this oil, so apparently they have in some markets. I stand > > corrected. > > > > Testing another "magic" oil additive today. It looks and smells > like > > linseed oil! This should be fun. Additives are another subject all > > together. Another day, but never tested a good one - none- zip - > > zero > > > > don't waste your money. > > > > Sorry for being soo long. I like synthetics (obviously). If you > > have > > been to the conferences, seen all the tests and data, and read the > > lubrication journals you would run nothing other then synthetics.

[Greg Paul]

All of the testing should be somewhat relative. Since we are even harder on our oil, it will deteriorate faster but I would surmise that the same stress levels would apply regardless. I posted earlier that I was going to keep using Mobil 1 since I had used it when I did a ton of desert riding out of Albuquerque in unnaturally high ambient temperatures at "sustained" high speed sandwash riding and never had a problem one. I was even pretty negligent about changing the oil on a regular basis. Anyway, I was speaking from my own experience and of course that does not mean that other "synthetics" are not as good, just that "synthetics" are better than "standard" oils. Have you had a contrary experience? Greg in Dallas

--- In DSN_klr650@y..., punkynlew@h... wrote: > Hi Greg: I didn't see anything to indicate this oil test was > performed on motorcycle engines. To my understanding, there is a > difference between how well the oil works in autos and in our > motorcycles, since our motorcycles use the same oil in the tranny and > the clutch, which is tougher on the oil (the reason for motorcycle > specific oils), and cars don't. Please clarify if you can. > > Punky & Lew (confused with head cocked) > > --- In DSN_klr650@y..., "Greg Paul" wrote: > > Great Info!!! > > That should settle a lot of discussions. > > > > Greg in Dallas > > > > > > > > --- In DSN_klr650@y..., pudens@t... wrote: > > > 3 emails from the GL1800 list, thought it a pretty good analysis > > for > > > a nontechnical person like myself. > > > > > > I am a NASA Engineer atMarshal Space Flight Center in Huntsville, > > > Alabama. My field of work is Tribology which is the study of > > > friction, wear, and lubrication. In our spare time, our group > > > collects and tests different motor oils using the Shell Four Ball > > > tester. This tester tests the extreme pressure properties of > > oils. > > > These areas in a motor are cam to lifter contacts, valve stem to > > > guild, and piston skirts. Over the years we have found > synthetic > > > bases oils to out perform mineral based oils by a large margin. > > We > > > test the oils new, after 1000 miles, 2000 miles, and up to 10,000 > > > miles. In a nut shell, we found that synthetic oils have better > > wear > > > properties after being run 10,000 miles then mineral grade oils > > new. > > > Which synthetic do we use? First any you will benefit from any > > > synthetic, but we use Mobil 1. Mobil by far puts more research > > > dollars in motor oils then any other company. They are also > > > aggressive in racing. > > > > > > Other notes on motor oils. > > > > > > Do not run a multi grade oil (10w-30) more then 1000 to 2000 > miles - > > > depending on your driving habits. > > > This is because a 10w30 oil starts its life as a 10 weight oil > and > > > large polymer chains are added to get the 30 rating. These > chains > > > break down very quickly which produces small chains with an open > > > electron charge at the ends. These ends attract grim and form > > sludge. > > > > > > Do not run synthetics in a new rebuild. A new engine needs the > > added > > > friction allowed by mineral oils to set the rings properly. > Chevy > > > found this out on the corvette. These cars came from the factory > > > with > > > Mobil 1 and owners brought them back because of smoking and oil > > > consumption (rings did not seat). Run a good single weight oil > for > > > the first 2000 miles. We found Havaline 30 to be a good mineral > oil > > > - > > > in fact we use it for our standard. > > > > > > The reason Mobil 1 can safely be run for 10,000 miles is because > the > > > additive package is well engineered to isolate grim and hold it in > > > suspension. This also is why Mobil 1 is expensive. You know - > you > > > get what you pay for. > > > > > > I know there are a lot of questions on motor oils. You can e- > mail > > me > > > for more information or search the web for more details on > > > synthetics. > > > Your Roadster deserves the best - run synthetic oils. > > > _______________________________________________________ > > > > > > I have received a lot of comments on oils, so I will try and > cover > > > some of the concerns/comments. > > > > > > I listed multi grade oil break down at 1000 to 2000 miles. This > is > > > for the junk oils found at circle K for a dollar. A good name > > brand > > > oil will last 3000 miles without too much break down. This is > for > > > mineral grade oils - synthetic oils meet government viscosity > tests > > > for ratings without adding thickeners like polymer chains. > > > > > > Guys here at work run synthetics in motors that have 140,000 to > > > 170,000 miles on them without any more oil consumption them > > normal. > > > I believe that you will get a slight increase in consumption in > > older > > > motors because the synthetic are very slippery and can get by old > > > rings easier. In these cases going to a 15w-50 may help, but > this > > is > > > not a reason not to use synthetics. > > > Older motors need the extra protection. At running temperature a > > > synthetic will maintain its viscosity, where a mineral oil > > viscosity > > > is DRASTICALLY REDUCED. > > > > > > A test on how well synthetics work at different temperature can > be > > > done in your home. Get a quart of your favorite mineral oil and > a > > > quart of a synthetic. Put a cup a each oil in a glass or paper > cup > > > and stick in the freezer over night. In the morning try and pour > > the > > > oils out. Next test: DO THIS OUTSIDE. On an old camp stove put > > a ? > > > of the synthetic oil in an old frying pan and put it on the stove > > on > > > the highest heat setting. Cook for 30 minutes. Now cook your oil > > > for 30 minutes. At this point you will see why you cooked the > > > synthetic first. As the oil cooks pour some out to see the > changes > > in > > > viscosity between the oils. > > > > > > Part 3 on oil additive coming soon. I need to back to NASA work. > > > _______________________________________________________ > > > > > > Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 07:01:29 > > > > > > Hey all - > > > > > > The question of change intervals and synthetic oil has come up. > As > > a > > > side at work we run oil tests using the Shell Four Ball test > rig. > > > This tester was developed by Shell oil to test the extreme wear > > > properties of motor oils - cams, piston skirts etc. It consists > of > > > three, = inch balls held in a triangular pattern in a cup with > oil > > > heated to 165 degrees. A forth ball is lowered to the center of > > the > > > three balls and loaded to 40 KG. The ball is then rotated 600 RPM > > > for one hour. After the test the wear scar is measured on the > > three > > > stationary balls. The bigger the scar the lower the extreme wear > > > property of the oil is. We use Havoline 30 wt for a base line. > We > > > use this oil because engineers from the past liked this oil, so > we > > > have a large data base. > > > > > > Looking at data shows new Havoline 30 wt has a wear scar of .0165 > > > inches. New Mobil 1 has a .0145 inch scar. May not seem like a > lot > > > of difference, but it is. Havoline 30 at 3000 miles has a wear > > scar > > > of .020 inches and Mobil 1 at 4000 miles has a .0164 scar. > > Remember - > > > the bigger the badder. 3000 miles is as long as anyone was > willing > > > to run Havoline 30 wt, so its data stops here. Mobil 1 at 6000 > > miles > > > is .0167, at 8000 miles is .0188, and at 10,000 miles is .0194. > > So, > > > at 10,000 miles Mobil 1 has better lubrication properties in the > > > critical areas in your motor then a good 30 wt. All mineral > oils > > > follow Havoline pretty close - major brands. Some off brands > have > > a > > > .020 wear scar new. Multi-grades generally have a larger wear > scar > > > as well. This data was from a 5.0 Ford Mustang. Every motor > will > > be > > > slightly different, but not much. > > > > > > So, synthetic can handle long run intervals. But, that is part > of > > the > > > story. You have contaminates to deal with. This is where the > > additive > > > package comes in play. This is the expensive part of oils and > the > > > reason synthetics are high priced. Because of the long run > > intervals > > > of synthetic, they must have a vastly superior additive package - > > and > > > they do. Proof of this is to take 3000 mile dino oil and look at > > it > > > in a glass jar - then do the same for Mobil 1. The Mobil 1 will > > look > > > new compared to the dino oil. I run Mobil 1 in my new cars to the > > > longest manufactures oil change interval - usually 7000 miles. > > This > > > will keep the warranty happy. In my Roadster I change it once a > > year > > > regardless of mileage. It run my Roadster about 5000 miles a > > year. > > > Most people at work run synthetics and do the same. We have a > > bunch > > > of cars in the lot that have over 200,000 miles on them and going > > > strong. I (my wife) never keeps one that long. > > > > > > I run 10w-30 Mobil 1 in my new Roadster motors (after break- in). > > > Older motors get 15w-50 because the tolerances are larger. > Because > > > synthetics don't thin down like mineral oils do at temperature, I > > > would be careful running 15w-50 in a motor with a high volume oil > > > pump. By doing so you may run into cavitation problems - oil > gage > > > jumping wildly. Drag racers experience this often at high RPM. > > Drop > > > a wt and it will clear up. > > > > > > I checked the auto parts stores last night and could not find a > > zero > > > wt Mobil 1. It was about 2 years ago they were talking > introducing > > > this oil, so apparently they have in some markets. I stand > > > corrected. > > > > > > Testing another "magic" oil additive today. It looks and smells > > like > > > linseed oil! This should be fun. Additives are another subject > all > > > together. Another day, but never tested a good one - none- zip - > > > zero > > > > > > don't waste your money. > > > > > > Sorry for being soo long. I like synthetics (obviously). If you > > > have > > > been to the conferences, seen all the tests and data, and read > the > > > lubrication journals you would run nothing other then synthetics.

[Gord Hunt]

I bled my brakes last night and the brakes still feeling spongy so I'm thinking of upgrading to steel lines. My dealer had a hard time finding any that would work and finally came up with the ones listed below. Does anyone know if this is the correct part Number and if they will work with an 84. Please let me know if there is a better brand and the part number to go with it. Russel Part #R08268 Braided Steel Lines - $74.99 CDN Thanks, Gord Hunt 1984 KLR 600 1977 KZ750 Twin (bored to 883) 1979 Can Am 400 (widowmaker) _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com