topless klr

[Denzfeat@aol.com]

<< In fact he flat out said "We don't check them during the 500 miles service, but wait until 2500". >> My mechanic said the same, based on experience more than training. He also said that after the first adjustment it was not necessary to adjust again during the normal (whatever that is) life of the engine. I would set the valves on the very loose side of spec at 2500 miles, that's what I'm going to do, then put a lot of miles on it without taking the valve cover off again, like maybe for three years. Pete the Streak

[Verle Nelson]

>> I talked with a Kawasaki mechanic in Atlanta regarding the >> inspection/shimming and was informed that they don't consider >> this necessary until the bike hits about 2500 miles. In fact he flat >> out said "We don't check them during the 500 miles service, but >> wait until 2500". > My mechanic said the same, based on experience more than training. > He also said that after the first adjustment it was not necessary to > adjust again during the normal (whatever that is) life of the engine.

The "experts" on this list can and will do valve lash adjustments whenever they want. That's fine. I wouldn't argue with them. But KLR owners who find it necessary or appropriate to ask a motorcycle shop for advice should peruse the archives of this list and perhaps reconsider what they have been told. I think you will find that: 1) It's true that many, perhaps most, shops do not do the 500 mile valve clearance check. However, many shops do charge for this service. The reasons they (mechanics/service managers) give for not doing the 500 mile valve clearance check differ considerably and some obviously don't know what they are talking about. I think that some shops are just lazy and/or dishonest. I would never trust a mechanic unless I knew his credentials. Now, before you mechanics out there come unglued, be aware that I'm saying I do value the opinion of mechanics I trust. But many KLR owners on this list have found their valve clearences out of spec at the 500 mile check. 2) Check the archives. If it isn't necessary to do another valve clearance check for "the life of the engine," then there are several "experts" on this list that have done a very poor job of measuring clearances. If I were a mechanic, I might tell you the factory doesn't check the valve clearances when the engine is assembled, having learned from experience that initial tolerances are usually within spec and therefore, the initial 500 mile valve clearance check is important. If I were a mechanic, I guess you might believe me. But I'm not a mechanic and further more I'm only guessing that the factory doesn't check tolerances during assembly. However, since checking and adjusting valves is really no big deal for the mechanically-inclined non-expert, why take chances. Verle Nelson Cedaredge, CO

[Kurt Simpson]

> I talked with a Kawasaki mechanic in Atlanta regarding the > inspection/shimming and was informed that they don't consider this > necessary until the bike hits about 2500 miles. In fact he flat out > said "We don't check them during the 500 miles service, but wait > until 2500".

I agree with Verle on this...it is a bit mind boggling to me that there are folks on this list that brag about never checking their valves. What is to brag about? The archives allow us to have the benefit of the experiences of hundreds of KLR owners. They will tell you that the bike's valves do indeed go out of spec at 500 miles 1500 miles and 3000 miles. I know, because that is what happened with my bike. The great thing about life is that we all get to go to hell in our own way... Kurt

[Arne Larsen]

From: Kevin Green Subject: [DSN_klr650] initial valve Inspection

> Hello all,

Hi.

> I recently purchased a '00 KLR with 450 miles on it. Got a great deal > at $3900 BTW. I ridden it about 400 additional miles and have read a > lot of discussions regarding valve inspection/shimming on this list. > I did the 500 mile service, all, except for valves. > > I talked with a Kawasaki mechanic in Atlanta regarding the > inspection/shimming and was informed that they don't consider this > necessary until the bike hits about 2500 miles.

MANY people on this list (myself included) found their intakes outside of the factory recommended tolerances on the initial 500 mile check... to the tight side. The Owners Manual says to check 'em... The Service Manual says to check 'em... I'd check 'em. Have fun with the new bike. =^) Arne

[Bogdan Swider]

> I agree with Verle on this...it is a bit mind boggling to me that there > are > folks on this list that brag about never checking their valves. What is to > brag about? The archives allow us to have the benefit of the experiences > of > hundreds of KLR owners. They will tell you that the bike's valves do > indeed > go out of spec at 500 miles 1500 miles and 3000 miles. I know, because > that > is what happened with my bike. > > The great thing about life is that we all get to go to hell in our own > way... > > Kurt >

It's the old jail house sawe, "Go out and do it but don't get caught" I'll confess an admiration for those wild young hawks like Conall that have gotten away with it. Me, it wouldn't have been so. At one inspection the valves were off and needed different shims. Bogdan

[Bogdan Swider]

> Any thoughts/comments regarding the Kawasaki mechanics view point? > > Kevin Green >

The right advice has already been given, once over. Still I'm impelled to comment on, yet again, a report about "professional wrenches" preaching pure bullshit. It's like these TV preachers or "successful" Indian gurus. You wonder "Do they actually believe this stuff themselves or are they cynically lying to you" Hey a new klr won't cover a $20,000 Harley or that obnoxious new Bemmer Goldwing but..hey, to some of us it means a lot. Why not treat it right? Bogdan

[steve pye]

-----Original Message----- From: Verle Nelson To: DSN_klr650@egroups.com DSN_klr650@egroups.com> Date: Friday, May 26, 2000 11:07 AM Subject: Re: [DSN_klr650] initial valve Inspection I think that some shops are just lazy and/or dishonest. I

>would never trust a mechanic unless I knew his credentials. Now, before you >mechanics out there come unglued, be aware that I'm saying I do value the >opinion of mechanics I trust. But many KLR owners on this list have found >their valve clearences out of spec at the 500 mile check.

But I'm not a mechanic and further more I'm only guessing

>that the factory doesn't check tolerances during assembly. However, since >checking and adjusting valves is really no big deal for the >mechanically-inclined non-expert, why take chances. >Verle Nelson >Cedaredge, CO

Verle, I agree with your comments on Mechanics. I know some who are very skilled and helpful and I've met others(at dealerships) that I wouldn't trust to put air in my tires. Know your local mechanic! I'm curious and a little confused about your comments on valve adjustment. I have 22000 kilos (approx.13,600 miles) on my 93' KLR. I'm preparing to do what I believe is the first valve check on this bike. Here's my question, if the factory doesn't check tolerances wouldn't they use the same initial shim in all bikes? From reading the manual I thought I had to A) determine current clearance, B)determine the shim size in place C) order new shim based on info the in chart and A & B. If the factory is putting different shims in each bike,doesn't this indicate they do check tolerances? If thier not,what size shim comes stock from the factory? As you can tell I've never done the valve check before, am I right in my thinking on the procedure involved or have I missed something obvious?? Steve Pye A7

[R Bizarro]

Hello everyone. Well I couldn't sit back on this topic. I have been a mechanic for many years. I have been under the public eye for years. I tell you, I treat my customers with respect and in most cases I get the respect back. But as a customer you come into a shop in some cases with a chip on your shoulder. You don't want to be their for one. In most cases you don't want to spend the money to do the job right. A few words of wisdom. Get to know the mechanic. Don't worry about the guy making the work order. Talk to the mechanic. If that shop says NO. Go to another that will give you that interation with the person working on your bike. Yes the machine you drive is the most important thing on your mind, in my case I do treat the machine the same way. As for TV preachers. The same applies, their are good and bad. Don't group the good, with the bad!!! My 2 cents worth. Think about it. Rick. -----Original Message----- From: Bogdan Swider To: 'Kevin Green' ; DSN_klr650@egroups.com DSN_klr650@egroups.com> Date: Friday, May 26, 2000 10:10 AM Subject: RE: [DSN_klr650] initial valve Inspection

> > > >> Any thoughts/comments regarding the Kawasaki mechanics view point? >> >> Kevin Green >> >The right advice has already been given, once over. Still I'm impelled to >comment on, yet again, a report about "professional wrenches" preaching

pure

>bullshit. It's like these TV preachers or "successful" Indian gurus. You >wonder "Do they actually believe this stuff themselves or are they

cynically

>lying to you" Hey a new klr won't cover a $20,000 Harley or that obnoxious >new Bemmer Goldwing but..hey, to some of us it means a lot. Why not treat

it

>right? Bogdan > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >Failed tests, classes skipped, forgotten locker combinations. >Remember the good 'ol days >http://click.egroups.com/1/4053/5/_/911801/_/959361000/ >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >Visit the KLR650 archives at >http://www.listquest.com/lq/search.html?ln=klr650 >Support Dual Sport News... dsneditor@... >Let's keep this list SPAM free! > >Visit our site at http://www.egroups.com/group/DSN_klr650 >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: >DSN_klr650-unsubscribe@egroups.com > > >

[Jeff Walker]

Attachments :

> service, but wait until 2500". >> > > My mechanic said the same, based on experience more than training. He

also

> said that after the first adjustment it was not necessary to adjust again > during the normal (whatever that is) life of the engine. I would set the > valves on the very loose side of spec at 2500 miles, that's what I'm going

to

> do, then put a lot of miles on it without taking the valve cover off

again,

> like maybe for three years. > > Pete the Streak

What, this argument again? Look, I don't care how many KLR's your mechanic didn't adjust the valves on. He was not the design engineer, and I seriously doubt he's been schooled in fatigue life, mechanics and strengths of materials, or any of the other countless calculations that must be performed when making a mechanical design. All he has ever seen are the bikes that came through his shop, and that isn't enough. Only Kawasaki has all the statistical data on their product worldwide. When studying mechanical reliability, you can't analyze data empirically. You have to break the problem down and analyze it statistically. Engineers when designing for reliability don't care where the mean values are, they care about the deviation from the mean, and the shape of the distribution curve. Failures don't occur in the mean range, they occur out on the tails of the curve. In engineering, we will never know any absolute, so a factor of safety is used to try to accommodate the unknown. The strength of a material is never known exactly, nor its fatigue life, nor any of the other hundred aspects that each play a small part in reliability. It is this way for all engineered materials. Don't believe me? Get yourself a box of 1/4" bolts and a micrometer and start measuring diameters. Then apply loads to them and see where they break and how much force it took. I have spent much time in the lab doing just this sort of thing. I have attached a simple drawing to illustrate my point. On the first graph are two distribution curves. The one on the right represents the distribution of the strength of the valve train components to withstand fatigue. The distribution on the left represents the cyclic loads that the valves experience during an initial 2500 mile service interval, (as the valve tolerance adjustment changes during break in.) Note the distance between the mean values, and the area of the curves' overlapping tails where failure or damage is likely to occur. To minimize that probability, you move the mean values farther apart, as I have done on the second graph, where the curve on the left now represents the cyclic loads applied during a 500 mile interval. Note that the area of probable damage is much smaller, so the probability is therefore lower of failure. This is just a general example, and the actual analysis is more complicated. But it proves my point. It isn't important if you crack open your valve cover only to discover your valves are perfectly adjusted. By not checking you are rolling the dice. Kawasaki included this interval on their maintainence manual not because it absolutely needs to be done, but to absolutely ensure that any problems in their manufacturing process and assembly will be discovered before serious damage occurs, and they don't have to shell out money for warrantee service, and lose a valued customer. Another reason is that they can't count on the operator to limit the RPM during the break in period like they are supposed to, they have no control over that, so they try to compensate for that unknown with their maintenance schedule. My last argument is that you shouldn't be paying a mechanic to do a basic service to your bike that you should do yourself. I don't care how limited your time is or how much money you make, you can't afford not to do it yourself, because it is the only way to ensure that the job was done properly, and it will familiarize you with the bike. It has been my experience that mechanics don't screw up major repair work, it is the small routine maintenance they always screw up on, little things like using an air impact driver to torque my wheel nuts on my Rodeo so that they stripped the threads, and I just went in there for a tire rotation and balance. Of course it wasn't until a month later before I discovered it. Can you imagine my rage to discover that I couldn't remove the wheel nuts with a tire iron in my driveway and had to use a breaker bar? Can you imagine how much more angry I would have been if I had to change a flat in the middle of nowhere? Get my drift? My two pennies Jeff

[Bogdan Swider]

> A few words of wisdom. Get to know the mechanic. Don't worry about the > guy making the work order. Talk to the mechanic. If that shop says NO. Go > to another that will give you that interation with the person working on > your bike. Yes the machine you drive is the most important thing on your > mind,in my case I do treat the machine the same way. As for TV preachers. > The same applies, their are good and bad. Don't group > the good, with the bad!!! > My 2 cents worth. > Think about it. > Rick. >

Of course you're right Rick. It's just we hear story after story apart from the misadventures we've experienced personally. (I believe Kurtz of Heart of Darkness was either talking about his ex-wife or ex-mechanic when he sighed "The horror ! ") Yeah among the incompetents and thieves I've run into heroes and saints. My Bemmer wrench was terrific, worth every penny and a friend to boot. You're also right about the TV preachers. The Dahli Lama, the Pope and Billy Graham all preach on the tube. All stand up guys or more. (I won't defend my choices, I'm sure some will disagree with one or all) Insert Jim Jones, Al Sharpton or Hillary; it's fine with me. Bogdan