starter question

[David Kleber]

Excellent post, Barry. I just dropped a chain during a ride on a trail neer my house a few weeks ago. Upon inspection of my countershaft after the long push home, I discovered a badly worn retainer...the teeth were all chewed up and the front sprocket was sliding freely on the countershaft. I don't know whether the wear on the retainer caused the chain break or if the chain break caused the wear on the retainer. When the chain broke, it took a significant shaving of aluminum off the case and I would imagine that when it wedged between the sproket and the case, it must have put quite a bit of preasure on the retainer. One thing for sure is that I DO NOT like the design of that retainer. I'm not sure why they would have designed that thing the way they did. I'll be checking into the Sagebrush retainer - thanks for the tip. -Dave http://www.city-net.com/~davekle/ KLR 650 A7

> Barry Pedersen wrote: > > I was greatly dismayed recently when I pulled the countershaft > sprocket off of my A9 for the first time. I bought it last August. A > few weeks ago, I decided that the chain was ready for replacement > (9700 mi). I replaced the chain and sprockets as set, but when I > pulled off the countershaft sprocket, I could see that it had worn > down the teeth (splines) on the countershaft. Comparing the area > where the sprocket rides to the end of the shaft revealed obvious > wear. The teeth on my retainer were also seriously mangled. > > If you haven't recently inspected the condition of your countershaft > with the sprocket off, I strongly advise doing so at your earliest > convenience. Once the teeth on the countershaft are rounded off, your > bike becomes just a noisy paperweight, and the engine must be removed > and split to replace the countershaft. > > Anyway, the culprit was play in the fit of the sprocket on the > countershaft. If you have a pre-'96 KLR650, your countershaft > sprocket is held on by a retainer fastened to the sprocket with two > bolts. If your bike is like mine was, this set up allows the > countershaft sprocket to move from side to side on the shaft during > operation causing excess wear. > > Fortunately, there is a fix available. Sagebrush Machine Shop has > shim sets available ($10), that you can install behind your > countershaft sprocket (between the sprocket and engine) to remove the > play. They come in sets because after market countershaft sprockets > aren't necessarily the same width as the stocker. So, if you get a > set, keep all of them in case you swap your Kawasaki c/s sprocket for > one of these. > > Also available from Sagebrush are upgraded retainers (also $10). The > stock retainer is designed so that no matter how it's slid onto the > countershaft, once it's rotated to line up the bolt holes, its teeth > will somewhat overlap the splines on the countershaft. The retainer > rides in a groove going around the countershaft, and it keeps the > sprocket on because it's teeth won't line up between the countershaft > splines once its bolted to the sprocket. This may be hard to > visualize, but it's quite obvious once you're looking at it. The > problem with the stock retainer is that its teeth only partially > overlap the countershaft splines. I think this contributes to the > play problem. > > The Sagebrush retainer is a little thicker and is cut so that its > teeth fully overlap the countershaft splines once its correctly > installed. CAUTION! If it's incorrectly installed, there is zero > overlap, and the c/s sprocket can slide off. This tends to ruin your > day. > > I have the shims and upgraded retainer on my A9 now, and there is no > side-to-side play in my countershaft sprocket. It's much sturdier > than before. If you find you have play in your setup, definitely give > Sagebrush a call and talk to Dave Jakeman about the upgrade. He's > very helpful, and he's available eves and weekends. > > Sagebrush Machine Shop > 49 S 400, PO Box 339 > Milford, Utah 84751-0039. > (435)387-5575. > > There's no email address, but he has a page on the DSN website. > http://www.geocities.com/~klrdsn/page92.html > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Visit the KLR650 archives at > http://www.listquest.com/lq/search.html?ln=klr650 > Support Dual Sport News... dsneditor@... > Let's keep this list SPAM free! > > Visit our site at http://www.egroups.com/group/DSN_klr650 > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > DSN_klr650-unsubscribe@egroups.com

[Tom Myers]

Re: [DSN_klr650] Countershaft protection for older KLR

Anyway, the culprit was play in the fit of the sprocket on the countershaft.  If you have a pre-'96 KLR650, your countershaft sprocket is held on by a retainer fastened to the sprocket with two bolts.  If your bike is like mine was, this set up allows the countershaft sprocket to move from side to side on the shaft during operation causing excess wear. 

I've been told this looseness is intentional to increase the life of the drivetrain.  Hondas have 'loose' countershaft sprockets too.  Anyone know the "truth"? Tom -- +------------------------------------+ |  CycoActive Products             tel (206) 323-2349 |  701 34th Ave               fax (206) 325-6016 |  Seattle, WA 98122    USA |  webpage:   http://www.cycoactive.com |  e-mail:  TomMyers@... +------------------------------------+

[Conall O'Brien]

This is all good info but I think you're missing the root cause of the problem, and that is the effect of drive chain tension. Trust me I know. The only way you are going to break a chain and at the same time exhibit damage to the drive shaft and countersprocket retainer is if the chain is too tight. They have the same problem on the TransAlp list, with thier bikes. Jake jakeman has the right idea in correcting a problem solved with the shims and it's always good to source parts locally than having to send to Japan for them. Dave- what kind of chain did you break? Endless or master link type? Brand? Conall always keeps his chain loose.

>From: David Kleber >To: Barry Pedersen >CC: DSN_klr650@egroups.com >Subject: Re: [DSN_klr650] Countershaft protection for older KLRs >Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 22:55:22 -0400 > >Excellent post, Barry. > >I just dropped a chain during a ride on a trail neer my house a few >weeks ago. Upon inspection of my countershaft after the long push home, >I discovered a badly worn retainer...the teeth were all chewed up and >the front sprocket was sliding freely on the countershaft. I don't know >whether the wear on the retainer caused the chain break or if the chain >break caused the wear on the retainer. When the chain broke, it took a >significant shaving of aluminum off the case and I would imagine that >when it wedged between the sproket and the case, it must have put quite >a bit of preasure on the retainer. > >One thing for sure is that I DO NOT like the design of that retainer. >I'm not sure why they would have designed that thing the way they did. >I'll be checking into the Sagebrush retainer - thanks for the tip. > >-Dave >http://www.city-net.com/~davekle/ >KLR 650 A7 > > > Barry Pedersen wrote: > > > > I was greatly dismayed recently when I pulled the countershaft > > sprocket off of my A9 for the first time. I bought it last August. A > > few weeks ago, I decided that the chain was ready for replacement > > (9700 mi). I replaced the chain and sprockets as set, but when I > > pulled off the countershaft sprocket, I could see that it had worn > > down the teeth (splines) on the countershaft. Comparing the area > > where the sprocket rides to the end of the shaft revealed obvious > > wear. The teeth on my retainer were also seriously mangled. > > > > If you haven't recently inspected the condition of your countershaft > > with the sprocket off, I strongly advise doing so at your earliest > > convenience. Once the teeth on the countershaft are rounded off, your > > bike becomes just a noisy paperweight, and the engine must be removed > > and split to replace the countershaft. > > > > Anyway, the culprit was play in the fit of the sprocket on the > > countershaft. If you have a pre-'96 KLR650, your countershaft > > sprocket is held on by a retainer fastened to the sprocket with two > > bolts. If your bike is like mine was, this set up allows the > > countershaft sprocket to move from side to side on the shaft during > > operation causing excess wear. > > > > Fortunately, there is a fix available. Sagebrush Machine Shop has > > shim sets available ($10), that you can install behind your > > countershaft sprocket (between the sprocket and engine) to remove the > > play. They come in sets because after market countershaft sprockets > > aren't necessarily the same width as the stocker. So, if you get a > > set, keep all of them in case you swap your Kawasaki c/s sprocket for > > one of these. > > > > Also available from Sagebrush are upgraded retainers (also $10). The > > stock retainer is designed so that no matter how it's slid onto the > > countershaft, once it's rotated to line up the bolt holes, its teeth > > will somewhat overlap the splines on the countershaft. The retainer > > rides in a groove going around the countershaft, and it keeps the > > sprocket on because it's teeth won't line up between the countershaft > > splines once its bolted to the sprocket. This may be hard to > > visualize, but it's quite obvious once you're looking at it. The > > problem with the stock retainer is that its teeth only partially > > overlap the countershaft splines. I think this contributes to the > > play problem. > > > > The Sagebrush retainer is a little thicker and is cut so that its > > teeth fully overlap the countershaft splines once its correctly > > installed. CAUTION! If it's incorrectly installed, there is zero > > overlap, and the c/s sprocket can slide off. This tends to ruin your > > day. > > > > I have the shims and upgraded retainer on my A9 now, and there is no > > side-to-side play in my countershaft sprocket. It's much sturdier > > than before. If you find you have play in your setup, definitely give > > Sagebrush a call and talk to Dave Jakeman about the upgrade. He's > > very helpful, and he's available eves and weekends. > > > > Sagebrush Machine Shop > > 49 S 400, PO Box 339 > > Milford, Utah 84751-0039. > > (435)387-5575. > > > > There's no email address, but he has a page on the DSN website. > > http://www.geocities.com/~klrdsn/page92.html > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Visit the KLR650 archives at > > http://www.listquest.com/lq/search.html?ln=klr650 > > Support Dual Sport News... dsneditor@... > > Let's keep this list SPAM free! > > > > Visit our site at http://www.egroups.com/group/DSN_klr650 > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > DSN_klr650-unsubscribe@egroups.com

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[Conall O'Brien]

>From: Tom Myers >To: DSN_klr650@egroups.com >Subject: Re: [DSN_klr650] Countershaft protection for older KLRs >Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 11:15:59 -0700

I believe you have disguised the solution to your problem below. I think your chain was too tight. But what do I know, it's really just an assumption.

>>Anyway, the culprit was play in the fit of the sprocket on the >>countershaft. If you have a pre-'96 KLR650, your countershaft >>sprocket is held on by a retainer fastened to the sprocket with two >>bolts. If your bike is like mine was, this set up allows the >>countershaft sprocket to move from side to side on the shaft during >>operation causing excess wear.

Then tom wrote:

>I've been told this looseness is intentional to increase the life of >the drivetrain. Hondas have 'loose' countershaft sprockets too. >Anyone know the "truth"? > >Tom >

I agree with you Tom, I'd rather replace a countershaft sprocket retainer than a driveshaft anyday. For those of you who are ready to upgrade to a better mousetrap, you better hope you don't overtighten your chain again and strip the splines off the actual driveshaft. I'll get off my soapbox now, sorry. Conall

>+------------------------------------+ >| CycoActive Products tel (206) 323-2349 >| 701 34th Ave fax (206) 325-6016 >| Seattle, WA 98122 USA >| webpage: http://www.cycoactive.com >| e-mail: TomMyers@... >+------------------------------------+

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[David Kleber]

Conall O'Brien wrote:

> > This is all good info but I think you're missing the root cause of the > problem, and that is the effect of drive chain tension. Trust me I know. The > only way you are going to break a chain and at the same time exhibit damage > to the drive shaft and countersprocket retainer is if the chain is too > tight. They have the same problem on the TransAlp list, with thier bikes. > Jake jakeman has the right idea in correcting a problem solved with the > shims and it's always good to source parts locally than having to send to > Japan for them. > Dave- what kind of chain did you break? Endless or master link type? Brand?

Non O-ring master link. And if anything, it was too loose. I had at least a couple of inches of play. -Dave http://www.city-net.com/~davekle/ KLR 650 A7

> Conall always keeps his chain loose. > > >From: David Kleber > >To: Barry Pedersen > >CC: DSN_klr650@egroups.com > >Subject: Re: [DSN_klr650] Countershaft protection for older KLRs > >Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 22:55:22 -0400 > > > >Excellent post, Barry. > > > >I just dropped a chain during a ride on a trail neer my house a few > >weeks ago. Upon inspection of my countershaft after the long push home, > >I discovered a badly worn retainer...the teeth were all chewed up and > >the front sprocket was sliding freely on the countershaft. I don't know > >whether the wear on the retainer caused the chain break or if the chain > >break caused the wear on the retainer. When the chain broke, it took a > >significant shaving of aluminum off the case and I would imagine that > >when it wedged between the sproket and the case, it must have put quite > >a bit of preasure on the retainer. > > > >One thing for sure is that I DO NOT like the design of that retainer. > >I'm not sure why they would have designed that thing the way they did. > >I'll be checking into the Sagebrush retainer - thanks for the tip. > > > >-Dave > >http://www.city-net.com/~davekle/ > >KLR 650 A7 > > > > > Barry Pedersen wrote: > > > > > > I was greatly dismayed recently when I pulled the countershaft > > > sprocket off of my A9 for the first time. I bought it last August. A > > > few weeks ago, I decided that the chain was ready for replacement > > > (9700 mi). I replaced the chain and sprockets as set, but when I > > > pulled off the countershaft sprocket, I could see that it had worn > > > down the teeth (splines) on the countershaft. Comparing the area > > > where the sprocket rides to the end of the shaft revealed obvious > > > wear. The teeth on my retainer were also seriously mangled. > > > > > > If you haven't recently inspected the condition of your countershaft > > > with the sprocket off, I strongly advise doing so at your earliest > > > convenience. Once the teeth on the countershaft are rounded off, your > > > bike becomes just a noisy paperweight, and the engine must be removed > > > and split to replace the countershaft. > > > > > > Anyway, the culprit was play in the fit of the sprocket on the > > > countershaft. If you have a pre-'96 KLR650, your countershaft > > > sprocket is held on by a retainer fastened to the sprocket with two > > > bolts. If your bike is like mine was, this set up allows the > > > countershaft sprocket to move from side to side on the shaft during > > > operation causing excess wear. > > > > > > Fortunately, there is a fix available. Sagebrush Machine Shop has > > > shim sets available ($10), that you can install behind your > > > countershaft sprocket (between the sprocket and engine) to remove the > > > play. They come in sets because after market countershaft sprockets > > > aren't necessarily the same width as the stocker. So, if you get a > > > set, keep all of them in case you swap your Kawasaki c/s sprocket for > > > one of these. > > > > > > Also available from Sagebrush are upgraded retainers (also $10). The > > > stock retainer is designed so that no matter how it's slid onto the > > > countershaft, once it's rotated to line up the bolt holes, its teeth > > > will somewhat overlap the splines on the countershaft. The retainer > > > rides in a groove going around the countershaft, and it keeps the > > > sprocket on because it's teeth won't line up between the countershaft > > > splines once its bolted to the sprocket. This may be hard to > > > visualize, but it's quite obvious once you're looking at it. The > > > problem with the stock retainer is that its teeth only partially > > > overlap the countershaft splines. I think this contributes to the > > > play problem. > > > > > > The Sagebrush retainer is a little thicker and is cut so that its > > > teeth fully overlap the countershaft splines once its correctly > > > installed. CAUTION! If it's incorrectly installed, there is zero > > > overlap, and the c/s sprocket can slide off. This tends to ruin your > > > day. > > > > > > I have the shims and upgraded retainer on my A9 now, and there is no > > > side-to-side play in my countershaft sprocket. It's much sturdier > > > than before. If you find you have play in your setup, definitely give > > > Sagebrush a call and talk to Dave Jakeman about the upgrade. He's > > > very helpful, and he's available eves and weekends. > > > > > > Sagebrush Machine Shop > > > 49 S 400, PO Box 339 > > > Milford, Utah 84751-0039. > > > (435)387-5575. > > > > > > There's no email address, but he has a page on the DSN website. > > > http://www.geocities.com/~klrdsn/page92.html > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > Visit the KLR650 archives at > > > http://www.listquest.com/lq/search.html?ln=klr650 > > > Support Dual Sport News... dsneditor@... > > > Let's keep this list SPAM free! > > > > > > Visit our site at http://www.egroups.com/group/DSN_klr650 > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > > DSN_klr650-unsubscribe@egroups.com > > ________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

[Jeff Walker]

Re: [DSN_klr650] Countershaft protection for older KLR #ygrps-yiv-1816198812 BLOCKQUOTE { MARGIN-BOTTOM:0px;MARGIN-TOP:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-1816198812 DL { MARGIN-BOTTOM:0px;MARGIN-TOP:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-1816198812 UL { MARGIN-BOTTOM:0px;MARGIN-TOP:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-1816198812 OL { MARGIN-BOTTOM:0px;MARGIN-TOP:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-1816198812 LI { MARGIN-BOTTOM:0px;MARGIN-TOP:0px;}

  Anyway, the culprit was play in the fit of the sprocket on the countershaft.  If you have a pre-'96 KLR650, your countershaft sprocket is held on by a retainer fastened to the sprocket with two bolts.  If your bike is like mine was, this set up allows the countershaft sprocket to move from side to side on the shaft during operation causing excess wear. 

I've been told this looseness is intentional to increase the life of the drivetrain.  Hondas have 'loose' countershaft sprockets too.  Anyone know the "truth"? Tom   Well, I'll take a stab at it.....Offhand, I'd guess that the countershaft is made from work hardened heat treated tool steel, a high quality steel to provide maximum strength and fatigue resistance....Sprockets can be made from stamped steel or aluminum, and I'd say that they are definitely not as tough or strong.  Looseness in the connection could compensate for a chain that is too tight or out of alignment to a degree, but the repetitive cyclic stress of the sprocket impacting against the countershaft splines will definitely wear the splines over time, even if the sprocket was very soft material.  If you could ensure that your chain was running perfectly inline with the sprocket, then you could run a tighter fit, especially if the chain was long enough....I guess I could do some calculations, but I don't have a table for metric chain sizes, only ANSI sizes, ("Design of Mechanical Elements" by Shigley, chapter 17-Flexible Mechanical Elements).  I'd say that the best thing to do would have the chain adjusted properly (too loose is better than too tight), the rear wheel carefully aligned with the countershaft (Although the rubber snubbers on the rear sprocket assembly compensate somewhat), and use Jake Jakemans countershaft shims to take almost all the play out in order to minimize cyclic stresses there.  I want the chain to be subjected to shock, not the countershaft or sprocket.  In every machine design that is subjected to repetitive stress, like a rotating shaft, fatigue is the most important factor for the design life.  The chain is easily replaceable, the counter shaft isn't.  I'd say that they have a loose fit on the countershaft sprocket because those parts are stamped, and they can't achieve a very close tolerance with that process, and they have to accommodate the statistical variance in all the countershafts that they have made, or else a new sprocket might not fit at all.    I think the way to go with the countershaft sprocket and even the rear sprocket would be to use Powdered Metallurgy.  With PM, you can achieve parts that have a metal matrix that is about 90% as dense as a alloy.  In the pores of the matrix, you can impregnate lubricating oil, and thus you'd have a permanently lubricated sprocket.  The gears in your blender, dishwasher, washing machine, and other stuff is made this way.  As the part is in operation and heats up, some oil seeps out of the metal pores.  As the gear cools, that oil is sucked back in.  Its really cool stuff.  You can even "alloy" (its really not an alloy, but a metal matrix) metals that don't ordinarily alloy, like steel and copper.  So you have a part with near the strength of steel, with the properties of copper, like corrosion resistance.  My good friend is a V.P. at Western Sintering, and I got to take a tour.  They make all the gears for Warn winches and some parts for Warn hubs.  The really cool thing with PM is that you can control the density of the metal, make some really awkward geometrical shapes that couldn't otherwise be machined, and combine different metallic properties with very little waste.  Brake pads, gun trigger assemblies and Uranium fuel rods are all made with PM techniques.  Well, just some rambling.....   Jeff

[Brian S Errett]

I just bought a Y2KLR to help breakup the mundane commute home - fortunately I live at the end of 4 mile of forest road (also surrounded by nice trails). Its been a great bike so far but I have recently been having a problem starting it - the neutral light will flicker off and on as the bike is jostled or rolled while sitting on it (when its off it won't start at all) and when its on it will start some of the time - the rest of the time it will make a sizzling type noise from down near the starter relay and then the light will go out. I've tried reseating the realy connections and have checked the battery cables (everything looks fine) - could the relay itself be causing this? Thanks! -Brian in Tijeras (New Mexico)