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DSN_KLR650
Kurt Simpson
Posts: 907
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 3:10 pm

[dsn_klr650] oils and lubes

Post by Kurt Simpson » Sun May 07, 2000 6:58 pm

> Any thoughts on chain lube?
no simple answer to either of your questions...you have to come to your own conclusions...if you search our archives you'll keep busy until tomorrow morning on the oil question alone...on the chain lube...it seems like there was a trend towards the Scottoiler approach a while back and lately the CW has been moving to keeping the chain clean with WD-40 and either leaving it at that or using a shot of chainwax...
> Also, is there any REAL difference between auto spec 10W40 and > motorcycle spec 10W40, other than price. I would image that I'll > want to run a higher grade down in Utah, where it's warmer. What > about synthetics? I use them in my car and truck all the time, but > are they okay for bikes with wet clutches?
it's anybody's guess..Skip Faulkner is our resident petroleum expert and advises against using automotive oils with the SJ doughnet...I use Valvoliine Premium Blue Diesel oil...it has to do with a reduction it minerals designed to reduce wear zinc and phosphorus...many of use Synthetics with good results and Mobil I SJ or not always tests well...as a rule we try and stay away from oil questions on the list (g)... Kurt

Skip Faulkner
Posts: 103
Joined: Fri Apr 14, 2000 9:08 am

[dsn_klr650] oils and lubes

Post by Skip Faulkner » Wed May 10, 2000 7:46 pm

 
----- Original Message ----- [b]From:[/b] msfaul@... [b]To:[/b] DSN_klr650@egroups.com [b]Sent:[/b] Thursday, May 11, 2000 12:39 AM [b]Subject:[/b] Re: [DSN_klr650] Oils and lubes   Good Day, eh. 'Nother newbie here.  Any thoughts on chain lube?  The ..................>snip   Kurt, as usual, has correctly expressed my thoughts. For longevity and proper engine protection, no API SJ rated auto oil. I know some people use it, but withas much research as I`ve done on oils and lubricants, you`ll never convince me it lubricates and protects nearly as well, and there`s plenty of emperical data to back that up. Before SJ, auto oil was fine. If you don`t plan on keeping your bike more than a few years, use the auto oil and let someone else do the rebuild.    As far as synthetics go, Mobil 1 auto has still shown to do a good job under stress. If you get any clutch slippage, just quit using it. Speaking of clutch slippage, the main reason many of the motorcycle manufacturers have a proplem with SJ rated auto oil is due to the fact that to compensate for the reduced levels of zinc and phosporus, SJ oils have increased amounts of friction modifiers, which have been the cause of serious clutch slippage at high loads in wet clutch bikes.I had that problem with Amsoil. I use diesel oil or Kawasaki oil, which is refined by Citgo and has opted to not comply with API SJ, therefore keeping the elevated levels of zinc and phophorus. It might say " Meets API SJ Standards" but it hasn`t got the API donut that certifies it API compliant.Kawasaki oil is also recommended by a lot of BMW mechanics,FWIW.    What it comes down to is that if you want to save a few bucks, go with the auto oil, but it`s just plain fact that it won`t lubricate as well as SH and prior API rated oils ( in a motorcycle)and the only way to get those comparable ratings is to go with bike specific oil or diesel.   IMHO   Skip   Also, is there any REAL difference between auto spec 10W40 and motorcycle spec 10W40, other than price.  I would image that I'll want to run a higher grade down in Utah, where it's warmer.  What about synthetics?  I use them in my car and truck all the time, but are they okay for bikes with wet clutches? I gotta tell ya, this site and the DSN&OG are great sources of info, especially for us newbies.  I'm really looking forward learning more at the rally, and riding in the Moab area.  Cheers, D. A14 GBG (Garbage-Bag Green) Visit the KLR650 archives at http://www.listquest.com/lq/search.html?ln=klr650 Support Dual Sport News... dsneditor@... Let's keep this list SPAM free! Visit our site at http://www.egroups.com/group/DSN_klr650 To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: DSN_klr650-unsubscribe@egroups.com

Skip Faulkner
Posts: 103
Joined: Fri Apr 14, 2000 9:08 am

[dsn_klr650] oils and lubes

Post by Skip Faulkner » Wed May 10, 2000 7:47 pm

 
----- Original Message ----- [b]From:[/b] msfaul@... [b]To:[/b] DSN_klr650@egroups.com [b]Sent:[/b] Thursday, May 11, 2000 12:39 AM [b]Subject:[/b] Re: [DSN_klr650] Oils and lubes   Good Day, eh. 'Nother newbie here.  Any thoughts on chain lube?  The ..................>snip   Kurt, as usual, has correctly expressed my thoughts. For longevity and proper engine protection, no API SJ rated auto oil. I know some people use it, but withas much research as I`ve done on oils and lubricants, you`ll never convince me it lubricates and protects nearly as well, and there`s plenty of emperical data to back that up. Before SJ, auto oil was fine. If you don`t plan on keeping your bike more than a few years, use the auto oil and let someone else do the rebuild.    As far as synthetics go, Mobil 1 auto has still shown to do a good job under stress. If you get any clutch slippage, just quit using it. Speaking of clutch slippage, the main reason many of the motorcycle manufacturers have a proplem with SJ rated auto oil is due to the fact that to compensate for the reduced levels of zinc and phosporus, SJ oils have increased amounts of friction modifiers, which have been the cause of serious clutch slippage at high loads in wet clutch bikes.I had that problem with Amsoil. I use diesel oil or Kawasaki oil, which is refined by Citgo and has opted to not comply with API SJ, therefore keeping the elevated levels of zinc and phophorus. It might say " Meets API SJ Standards" but it hasn`t got the API donut that certifies it API compliant.Kawasaki oil is also recommended by a lot of BMW mechanics,FWIW.    What it comes down to is that if you want to save a few bucks, go with the auto oil, but it`s just plain fact that it won`t lubricate as well as SH and prior API rated oils ( in a motorcycle)and the only way to get those comparable ratings is to go with bike specific oil or diesel.   IMHO   Skip   Also, is there any REAL difference between auto spec 10W40 and motorcycle spec 10W40, other than price.  I would image that I'll want to run a higher grade down in Utah, where it's warmer.  What about synthetics?  I use them in my car and truck all the time, but are they okay for bikes with wet clutches? I gotta tell ya, this site and the DSN&OG are great sources of info, especially for us newbies.  I'm really looking forward learning more at the rally, and riding in the Moab area.  Cheers, D. A14 GBG (Garbage-Bag Green) Visit the KLR650 archives at http://www.listquest.com/lq/search.html?ln=klr650 Support Dual Sport News... dsneditor@... Let's keep this list SPAM free! Visit our site at http://www.egroups.com/group/DSN_klr650 To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: DSN_klr650-unsubscribe@egroups.com

TLrydr@aol.com
Posts: 838
Joined: Fri Apr 07, 2000 9:00 pm

[dsn_klr650] oils and lubes

Post by TLrydr@aol.com » Thu May 11, 2000 7:29 am

Dude, I went to the local bike shop and all the oil i saw on the shelf was SJ rated, Suzuki Kawasaki Yamaha All said SJ rated, The sales man kept saying BelRay was still SH rated but he was out of BelRay . Mike In a message dated 5/10/00 7:48:19 PM EST, msfaul@... writes: << " Meets API SJ Standards" but it hasn`t got the API donut that certifies it API compliant.Kawasaki oil is also recommended by a lot of BMW mechanics,FWIW >>

Skip Faulkner
Posts: 103
Joined: Fri Apr 14, 2000 9:08 am

[dsn_klr650] oils and lubes

Post by Skip Faulkner » Thu May 11, 2000 8:23 am

     Dude, I went to the local bike shop and all the oil i saw on the shelf was SJ rated, Suzuki Kawasaki Yamaha All said SJ rated,     The sales man kept saying BelRay was still SH rated but he was out of BelRay .                                                                                                          Mike          Mike,    I`ve been buying the Kawasaki oil for my wife`s bike for a year now and still have not seen an API donut on it. After reading this post, I called a friend who is the BMW mechanic in Missoula, and all his Kawasaki oil is lacking the API donut also.   Are you sure you are seeing the API donut. If there is a statement in a circle that says something like "SJ compliant" or " Meets SJ standards", that does not mean it is API SJ rated, two different things. I`ll call Citgo today and verify this.In the meantime, check again yourself and verify that there is an API donut(double circle) that specifically says API rated, not meets or complies,rated.   I`ll let you know.   Skip

Skip Faulkner
Posts: 103
Joined: Fri Apr 14, 2000 9:08 am

[dsn_klr650] oils and lubes

Post by Skip Faulkner » Thu May 11, 2000 8:40 am

  The specialty MOTORCYCLE oils made by the oil companies (Castrol, Valvoline, Mobil, Pennzoil etc) are rated SG, but the price is high, $7(US$) & up per quart. I just bought Mobil 1 Tri-Synthetic automobile oil at Walmart (5 quart container, 15W-50 for $15[US$]). Don't put off changing your oil too long, just to find the SG oil.  Changing your oil every 2-3K miles is one of the best things you can do for the longevity of your KLR. Professor     A9      Federal Way, Wa. [USA]   I agree 100%. The changing frequency is just as if not more important than the addition or lack of lubricating additives. Dirty SH or SG is worse than clean SJ. BUT, for the additional benefits and since I plan to keep my bike for many years, I`ll pay the small difference for bike specific oil.   Skip

Scherer, Michael
Posts: 81
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 2:09 pm

[dsn_klr650] oils and lubes

Post by Scherer, Michael » Thu May 11, 2000 9:42 am

I may be missing it. I use only Kawachem. Is this not good enough? Biker Mike (changing to "3 in 1" if no body responds) -----Original Message----- From: Skip Faulkner [mailto:msfaul@...] Sent: Friday, May 12, 2000 9:23 AM To: DSN_klr650@egroups.com; TLrydr@... Subject: Re: Fw: [DSN_klr650] Oils and lubes Dude, I went to the local bike shop and all the oil i saw on the shelf was SJ rated, Suzuki Kawasaki Yamaha All said SJ rated, The sales man kept saying BelRay was still SH rated but he was out of BelRay . Mike Mike, I`ve been buying the Kawasaki oil for my wife`s bike for a year now and still have not seen an API donut on it. After reading this post, I called a friend who is the BMW mechanic in Missoula, and all his Kawasaki oil is lacking the API donut also. Are you sure you are seeing the API donut. If there is a statement in a circle that says something like "SJ compliant" or " Meets SJ standards", that does not mean it is API SJ rated, two different things. I`ll call Citgo today and verify this.In the meantime, check again yourself and verify that there is an API donut(double circle) that specifically says API rated, not meets or complies,rated. I`ll let you know. Skip _____ http://click.egroups.com/1/3746/5/_/911801/_/958051423/> Auction listings at govWorks.com. Click here. http://adimg.egroups.com/img/3746/5/_/911801/_/958051423/> _____ Visit the KLR650 archives at http://www.listquest.com/lq/search.html?ln=klr650 http://www.listquest.com/lq/search.html?ln=klr650> Support Dual Sport News... dsneditor@... Let's keep this list SPAM free! Visit our site at http://www.egroups.com/group/DSN_klr650 http://www.egroups.com/group/DSN_klr650> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: DSN_klr650-unsubscribe@egroups.com

Tom Bowman
Posts: 30
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2000 12:47 pm

[dsn_klr650] oils and lubes

Post by Tom Bowman » Fri May 12, 2000 7:00 am

Jim writes:
> Skip, > Thanks for your reply. As a former m/c mechanic & one who has
worked on
> bikes for 30+ years, I understand better than most the
importance of
> proper m/c maintenance. I tend to keep my bikes a long time
and I want
> to maximize reliability and engine life. I found that Castrol
synthetic
> blend (auto: 20W-50) noticeably improved my KLR's shifting, it
no longer
> is in the same category as my R90/6 beemer, but there is still
room for
> improvement. A while back I posted a suggestion about
"pre-loading" the
> shifter before dis-engaging the clutch to help eliminate the
balky
> shifting & false neutrals. > Cost is always a consideration in every aspect of what we do.
I don't
> mind paying $2-4 (US$) per quart of oil, but hesitate to pay
$8-11 &
> still do frequent oil changes. I don't want to be penny-wise & > pound-foolish, but until I've seen proof that the SJ rated oils
WILL
> shorten my engine life, I can't justify the higher cost. If
the SJ oils
> would DEFINITELY cause the wet clutch to slip, then I would
have no
> choice but to pay the piper for the high-priced spread. > > I have researched the SJ vs SG matter a bit, & my lay
conclusion is that
> the clutch slippage problem is related to "hard" riding,
especially with
> hyper-bikes. The fact that our water-cooled KLRs are not
subjected to
> the same operating temperature extremes as an air-cooled
engine, leads
> me to believe that engine life will not be compromised by using
a good
> quality SJ rated oil. Clutch slippage however ... > > I am going to try SJ rated Mobil 1, 15W-50 automotive oil,
hopefully to
> further improve my "character-enabled" BMW-like tranny. Any
further
> info on this subject would be greatly appreciated.
Enough with the rhetoric. The SJ vs SG/SH oil debate could go on forever if allowed to remain in the realm of theory. As a practical matter there are two considerations you should be concerned about relative to the changes to the additive packs in SJ oil: does your machine have a catalytic converter that must be kept functioning to meet regulations? and is your engine a plain-bearing, high-rpm/high-load design? If you can answer "no" to those to questions, it probably doesn't matter whether you use SJ oil or not, provided that your choice of viscosity range is proper and oil changes occur every 3,000 ~ 5,000 miles. With all due respect, folx, KLR 650's don't fall in either category. SJ oils have reduced levels of the additive ZDDP. ZDDP (Zinc DialkylDithioPhosphate) contains elements that "poison" catalytic converters when deposited via oil burning; since automotive catalysts *must* remain functional past 100K miles and must pass annual inspections, this additive was a problem for emission system designers concerned with regulatory compliance and changes to the oil additive package were the result. FWIW, at the same time, CAFE (Corporate Average Fuel Economy) requirements have driven engineers to seek power "overhead" reductions where they can find them - oil system pumping losses, for example. Hence, SJ oils typically are coming in lower viz ranges - 10W30 or 5W20, for example, and 0W-20 is on the horizon. The reason ZDDP (and by extension, certain levels of zinc) is important to motorcyclists is in extreme load conditions such as those on rod bearings or cam/tappet surfaces at extreme high rpms (such as your CBR F3/F4, Yamaha R6, etc.), or in big, heavy, air/oil-cooled engines such as BMW's R1100GS. Zinc is the last thing standing between metal to metal contact when oil films break down, and for that reason is important if you regularly stress your motor to its mechanical and lubrication limits. Now to the point: KLR 650's are neither high-revving nor air-cooled, nor do they have a catalyst. This motor makes about 40 horsepower (don't get yer noses outta joint, now!) on a good day and typically never sees its own rather modest red-line. It's water-cooled and made of good materials by engineers who also design ZX-11's and the like and know what they're doing. If SJ oil were commonly available in 20W50, I wouldn't hesitate to run it in mine, but I think the viscosity range so important that I pay more and buy SG grade to get not only the better additive package but what I consider the proper viz range. I think of the oil question this way: - some oil is better than no oil - clean oil is better than dirty oil - the correct viscosity is better than one heavier or lighter than needed - SG/SH is better than SJ *for motorcycle applications* - Teflon, graphite, and snake oil have no place in motor oils; zinc does Now back to your regular programming........ Tom Bowman Atlanta A14

TLrydr@aol.com
Posts: 838
Joined: Fri Apr 07, 2000 9:00 pm

[dsn_klr650] oils and lubes

Post by TLrydr@aol.com » Fri May 12, 2000 8:00 am

Skip, There is no donut, on the oil i looked at , But it did say SJ rated ??? I stand corrected, Mike In a message dated 5/11/00 8:24:31 AM EST, msfaul@... writes: << Are you sure you are seeing the API donut. If there is a statement in a circle that says something like "SJ compliant" or " Meets SJ standards", that does not mean it is API SJ rated, two different things. I`ll call Citgo >>

k650dsn@aol.com
Posts: 965
Joined: Wed Apr 05, 2000 1:35 pm

[dsn_klr650] oils and lubes

Post by k650dsn@aol.com » Fri May 12, 2000 8:27 am

In a message dated Fri, 12 May 2000 8:00:53 AM Eastern Daylight Time, "Tom Bowman" writes: >>
Uh... but isn't it those same, fine engineers that design the KL650A and ZX11 motors who recommend 10w40 in the KLR motor? Just asking... Gino