battery?/starter? issue

[Todd Larson]

I sheared a 12.9 grade bolt. Getting it out SUCKED. It ended up costing quite a bit, because I couldn't get it, and had to hand the job over to a local fabrication shop. GET THE 10mm DRILL THROUGH KIT BEFORE SOMETHING LIKE THAT HAPPENS TO YOU! Todd --- RM wrote:

> Mike, > > They're metric, so no grade 8. Property class 12.9 > instead. > > The kit is better for two reasons. First, the bolt > is 10mm instead of > 8mm. Second, the shear load is applied to the > stronger non-threaded > portion of the bolt (unlike the stock setup). > > I don't know if anyone has ever sheared-off a pair > of stock replacement > 12.9's, but God help them if they ever have to drill > out remnants which > have been threadlocked in place. Getting out one of > the sheared-off > 10.9 stock bolts took me two evenings. Then I > needed anotrher to drill > out the frame and the other sheared-off bolt from > the back-side. That > sucked. > > Mine did fail on the trail, and that sucked too. > > RM

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[Mike Peplinski]

This question has been posed before but how often is the street rider harassed by sheared bolts? You can't count a used bike with an unknown history either. It is understandable that trail riding or off roading in general would put greater stresses on the subframe but for the 99% street rider, is this even an issue or just another "farkle" like an aluminum skid plate?

>From: Todd Larson >To: DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com >Subject: RE: [DSN_KLR650] Subframe bolts >Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 22:54:15 -0800 (PST) > >I sheared a 12.9 grade bolt. Getting it out SUCKED. >It ended up costing quite a bit, because I couldn't >get it, and had to hand the job over to a local >fabrication shop. > >GET THE 10mm DRILL THROUGH KIT BEFORE SOMETHING LIKE >THAT HAPPENS TO YOU! > >Todd > >--- RM wrote: > > > Mike, > > > > They're metric, so no grade 8. Property class 12.9 > > instead. > > > > The kit is better for two reasons. First, the bolt > > is 10mm instead of > > 8mm. Second, the shear load is applied to the > > stronger non-threaded > > portion of the bolt (unlike the stock setup). > > > > I don't know if anyone has ever sheared-off a pair > > of stock replacement > > 12.9's, but God help them if they ever have to drill > > out remnants which > > have been threadlocked in place. Getting out one of > > the sheared-off > > 10.9 stock bolts took me two evenings. Then I > > needed anotrher to drill > > out the frame and the other sheared-off bolt from > > the back-side. That > > sucked. > > > > Mine did fail on the trail, and that sucked too. > > > > RM > > > > >__________________________________ >Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 >http://mail.yahoo.com > > >Archive Quicksearch at: >http://www.angelfire.com/ut/moab/klr650_data_search.html >List sponsored by Dual Sport News at: www.dualsportnews.com >List FAQ courtesy of Chris Krok at: www.bigcee.com/klr650faq.html >Member Map at: http://www.frappr.com/dsnklr650 >Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > >

[John Kokola]

I have been trying to 'take the temperature' of this issue by loosely keeping track of reported failures: I've only heard of one failure of the 'bolt upgrade' (12.9 bolt) -- Todd's -- but have heard of many failures of the stock bolts. From what I recall, it seems that the stock bolts can fail anywhere. I think that upgrading the bolts is very cheap insurance. I'm prepping my KLR for an eventual Baja trip, and will be using the through-bolt upgrade. Haven't heard of any failures with this method. --John Kokola Mike Peplinski wrote:

>This question has been posed before but how often is the street rider >harassed by sheared bolts? You can't count a used bike with an unknown >history either. It is understandable that trail riding or off roading in >general would put greater stresses on the subframe but for the 99% street >rider, is this even an issue or just another "farkle" like an aluminum skid >plate? >

[Thor Lancelot Simon]

On Mon, Nov 14, 2005 at 01:11:15PM -0500, John Kokola wrote:

> I have been trying to 'take the temperature' of this issue by loosely > keeping track of reported failures: I've only heard of one failure of > the 'bolt upgrade' (12.9 bolt) -- Todd's -- but have heard of many > failures of the stock bolts. From what I recall, it seems that the > stock bolts can fail anywhere. I think that upgrading the bolts is very > cheap insurance.

If you upgrade the bolts, just remember that harder bolts are _more_ brittle and may actually fail _more easily_ in service if they come loose. Loctite on the upgraded bolts is a must and checking that they are still tight should be part of your regular preventitive maintenance routine. Check how many bikes' footpeg bolts are loose sometime. Small wonder people break the M8 grade 12.9 bolts when installed there!

[John Kokola]

Agreed, the most important thing is to keep the bolts tight. http://www.boltscience.com/pages/basics1.htm --John Kokola -----Original Message----- From: Thor Lancelot Simon

On Mon, Nov 14, 2005 at 01:11:15PM -0500, John Kokola wrote: > I have been trying to 'take the temperature' of this issue by loosely > keeping track of reported failures: I've only heard of one failure of > the 'bolt upgrade' (12.9 bolt) -- Todd's -- but have heard of many > failures of the stock bolts. From what I recall, it seems that the > stock bolts can fail anywhere. I think that upgrading the bolts is very > cheap insurance. If you upgrade the bolts, just remember that harder bolts are _more_ brittle and may actually fail _more easily_ in service if they come loose.

[wannabsmooth1]

--- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, Thor Lancelot Simon wrote:

> > On Mon, Nov 14, 2005 at 01:11:15PM -0500, John Kokola wrote: > > I have been trying to 'take the temperature' of this issue by loosely > > keeping track of reported failures: I've only heard of one failure of > > the 'bolt upgrade' (12.9 bolt) -- Todd's -- but have heard of many > > failures of the stock bolts. From what I recall, it seems that the > > stock bolts can fail anywhere. I think that upgrading the bolts

is very

> > cheap insurance. > > If you upgrade the bolts, just remember that harder bolts are _more_ > brittle and may actually fail _more easily_ in service if they come > loose. Loctite on the upgraded bolts is a must and checking that they > are still tight should be part of your regular preventitive maintenance > routine. > > Check how many bikes' footpeg bolts are loose sometime. Small wonder > people break the M8 grade 12.9 bolts when installed there! >

Thor, I don't know of anyine who sells 12.9 replacements for the footpegs. Do you? In a previous thread, you said something about thee 12.9's failing more easily than a softer bolt, and said you wanted to just check the softer bolts more frequently, IIRC. Used in the same manner, properly torqued and loctited, 12.9 bolts won't shear any easier than 10.9's, or 8.8's. The 8.8's and 10.9's will stretch before the 12.9's will, which results in a loss of tension on the bolt - especially the 8.8's. all the best, Mike

[TH]

I posted earlier about this, found one of my stock ones sheared, replaced it with Fred's kit and all was good. Being paranoid, I then went and checked the bolts on my wife's TTR, which of course had one broken off. So while trying to get the broken piece out I broke off the carbide screw extractor. None of my bits would touch it, went to a tool supply house and bought a $30 carbide bit that supposedly was the hardest made. I don't seem to be getting too far in drilling it out, am using cutting fluid, slow speed etc. but it is very slow. My question is this- what is normally done when you break off the extractor bit within the bolt? Am I screwed and going to have to take this to a machine shop? What do they do different other than expertise? Thanks, TH A19 SLC, UT --- Todd Larson wrote:

> I sheared a 12.9 grade bolt. Getting it out SUCKED. > > It ended up costing quite a bit, because I couldn't > get it, and had to hand the job over to a local > fabrication shop. > > GET THE 10mm DRILL THROUGH KIT BEFORE SOMETHING LIKE > THAT HAPPENS TO YOU! > > Todd > > --- RM wrote: >

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[Thor Lancelot Simon]

On Mon, Nov 14, 2005 at 07:56:25PM -0000, wannabsmooth1 wrote:

> > Thor, > > I don't know of anyine who sells 12.9 replacements for the footpegs. > Do you? In a previous thread, you said something about thee 12.9's > failing more easily than a softer bolt, and said you wanted to just > check the softer bolts more frequently, IIRC. > > Used in the same manner, properly torqued and loctited, 12.9 bolts > won't shear any easier than 10.9's, or 8.8's. The 8.8's and 10.9's > will stretch before the 12.9's will, which results in a loss of > tension on the bolt - especially the 8.8's.

You can get 12.9 bolts for the footpegs from McMaster-Carr. I believe they'll ship you Metric Blue, but of course with McMaster you can never be 100% sure what you'll get. My friend Ross is an aerospace engineer with a lot of experience with critical bolted joints. He says that almost all bolt failures in high vibration applications begin with a loose bolt, and that this is why various aero standards specify both a minimum and a maximum hardness for bolts: too hard a bolt, once it comes loose, is more likely to break, even if its ultimate strength when properly torqued is higher. That said, I still have Metric Blues in several locations on my bike but since discussing it with him I am much, much more careful to check torque regularly. It's all a balancing act, no? Thor

[Thor Lancelot Simon]

On Mon, Nov 14, 2005 at 01:22:26PM -0800, TH wrote:

> I posted earlier about this, found one of my stock > ones sheared, replaced it with Fred's kit and all was > good. Being paranoid, I then went and checked the > bolts on my wife's TTR, which of course had one broken > off. So while trying to get the broken piece out I > broke off the carbide screw extractor. None of my > bits would touch it, went to a tool supply house and > bought a $30 carbide bit that supposedly was the > hardest made.

Oh, you're singing my song all right. I too am a member of the incompetent fraternity of those who break carbide extractors and taps. I bet it's sheared off at such a funky angle that you can't center-punch it, too? Mine was. A combination of Mike's and Devon's advice saved my butt last time. Get yourself a bunch of dremel grinding bits -- the little bullet-shaped pink ones and the long conical orange ones. Also, get several packs of cheap carbide-tipped masonry bits a couple sizes smaller than the hole you're trying to get the bolt out of. Alternate grinding with differently shaped bits -- the conical bit will give you a nice centered hole, too -- with drilling with the masonry bits. You'll ruin the bits quick but they only cost a buck or so each. Eventually you will get it out. Wear earplugs or you will have some nasty hearing damage sneak up on you from the hours you're going to spend on this task.

[Mike Peplinski]

Briefly, hardness is usually directly proportional to brittleness. The harder a piece, the more easily snapped. Carbide is about the hardest metal known to man. I think only diamond is harder. The most common way I know of is to take it in and have it burned out. Machine shops use a burning device that works. I've used heat to the stud and turned it out with a chisel or punch. It doesn't always work but it may be worth a shot.

>From: TH >To: DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com >Subject: RE: [DSN_KLR650] Subframe bolts >Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 13:22:26 -0800 (PST) > >I posted earlier about this, found one of my stock >ones sheared, replaced it with Fred's kit and all was >good. Being paranoid, I then went and checked the >bolts on my wife's TTR, which of course had one broken >off. So while trying to get the broken piece out I >broke off the carbide screw extractor. None of my >bits would touch it, went to a tool supply house and >bought a $30 carbide bit that supposedly was the >hardest made. I don't seem to be getting too far in >drilling it out, am using cutting fluid, slow speed >etc. but it is very slow. My question is this- what >is normally done when you break off the extractor bit >within the bolt? Am I screwed and going to have to >take this to a machine shop? What do they do >different other than expertise? > >Thanks, > >TH >A19 >SLC, UT > >--- Todd Larson wrote: > > > I sheared a 12.9 grade bolt. Getting it out SUCKED. > > > > It ended up costing quite a bit, because I couldn't > > get it, and had to hand the job over to a local > > fabrication shop. > > > > GET THE 10mm DRILL THROUGH KIT BEFORE SOMETHING LIKE > > THAT HAPPENS TO YOU! > > > > Todd > > > > --- RM wrote: > > > > > > >__________________________________ >Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click. >http://farechase.yahoo.com > > >Archive Quicksearch at: >http://www.angelfire.com/ut/moab/klr650_data_search.html >List sponsored by Dual Sport News at: www.dualsportnews.com >List FAQ courtesy of Chris Krok at: www.bigcee.com/klr650faq.html >Member Map at: http://www.frappr.com/dsnklr650 >Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > >