new klr 650 ('06 model) owner question - this shouldn't be happening

[sbcglobal]

Well... I asked the mechanic some of the questions that were raised on the list, and the cause for the rod breaking has now changed. They've decided unquestionably that the engine was over-reved. How can I argue with logic and consistency like that? Guess I had hoped there would be some small chance that Kawasaki would be benevolent in a defective part claim, but it's clear from the start that this course is just plain self abuse. The truth is that I bought a used bike - 450 miles - and have no idea what was done to it before I bought it. Very well could have been over-reved. Could have been used once for some off road race. Who knows. I really do appreciate all of your responses, thoughtful comments. I will take pictures and post them. Anybody got a spare engine.... Best to you all, Chuck

----- Original Message ----- From: Stuart Mumford To: DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2005 11:42 AM Subject: [DSN_KLR650] Re: Indestructible A15 KLR 650 snaps rod at just over 2K miles Let's see some parts. Unless you have an extended warranty through Kawasaki, your bike's out of warranty. I suggest taking it to an independent shop (or a different Kawi dealer) and having them tear down the motor to see what really happened. Shouldn't take more than 1 hr. of shop time to yank the valve cover and see if the valves are bent, which would indicate the piston hitting the valves. I'm real curious to see what happened. Hydrolock isn't an option, IMHO. I'm betting your cam chain skipped a tooth and the piston hit the valves. If the rod actually broke, that would be spectacular and unique. Please upload some pictures of the parts! Good luck CA Stu Archive Quicksearch at: http://www.angelfire.com/ut/moab/klr650_data_search.html List sponsored by Dual Sport News at: www.dualsportnews.com List FAQ courtesy of Chris Krok at: www.bigcee.com/klr650faq.html Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Jim]

Did we actually learn anything on this merry-go-round yet? Tear it down, inspect it and get the "facts". ASK QUESTIONS. Get a written contract, itemized for parts and labor to repair the damage. Make sure the work comes with a reasonable warranty. ASK QUESTIONS. Get it done. CHECK REPAIRS FOR OBVIOUS MISTAKES. Return to repair shop to get mistakes fixed. Ride, allowing for some kind of break-in also. FWIW Jim A17

--- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, "sbcglobal" wrote: > Well... > > I asked the mechanic some of the questions that were raised on the list, and the cause for the rod breaking has now changed. They've decided unquestionably that the engine was over-reved. How can I argue with logic and consistency like that? Guess I had hoped there would be some small chance that Kawasaki would be benevolent in a defective part claim, but it's clear from the start that this course is just plain self abuse. > > The truth is that I bought a used bike - 450 miles - and have no idea what was done to it before I bought it. Very well could have been over-reved. Could have been used once for some off road race. Who knows. > > I really do appreciate all of your responses, thoughtful comments. I will take pictures and post them. > > Anybody got a spare engine.... > > Best to you all, > > Chuck > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Stuart Mumford > To: DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2005 11:42 AM > Subject: [DSN_KLR650] Re: Indestructible A15 KLR 650 snaps rod at just over 2K miles > > > Let's see some parts. > > Unless you have an extended warranty through Kawasaki, your bike's out of > warranty. > > I suggest taking it to an independent shop (or a different Kawi dealer) and > having them tear down the motor to see what really happened. > Shouldn't take more than 1 hr. of shop time to yank the valve cover and see > if the valves are bent, which would indicate the piston hitting the valves. > > I'm real curious to see what happened. Hydrolock isn't an option, IMHO. > > I'm betting your cam chain skipped a tooth and the piston hit the valves. > > If the rod actually broke, that would be spectacular and unique. > > Please upload some pictures of the parts! > > Good luck > CA Stu > > > > > > > Archive Quicksearch at: http://www.angelfire.com/ut/moab/klr650_data_search.html > List sponsored by Dual Sport News at: www.dualsportnews.com > List FAQ courtesy of Chris Krok at: www.bigcee.com/klr650faq.html > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Jeff Saline]

Chuck, Maybe now would be a good time to contact F1 Engineering or Bulldog?? and see if they'll sell you a diesel engine. If you're gonna be in for some bucks this might just reduce the pain a little bit. Best, Jeff Saline ABC # 4412 South Dakota Airmarshal Airheads Beemer Club www.airheads.org The Beautiful Black Hills of South Dakota 75 R90/6, 03 KLR650, 79 R100RT [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[April Neave & Norm Keller]

I told the story about crankcase detonation to about 20 automotive techs today in my travels and they really got a kick out of it! There is simply no way that fuel will detonate in the crankcase and cause any piston or connecting rod problems. If one simply considers the forces involved in generating the KLR's power output then it can be seen that the connecting rod is extremely robust in withstanding both compression and tension loads. The force required to break or even stretch the rod would be tremendous. Now consider that the pressure acting on the bottom of the piston would have to be at least as great as that acting on the top during the power stroke. There is simply no way that the crankcase would withstand this sort of pressure even if it could be generated by some sort of fuel leak. The side covers would be blown open, the seals popped out, etc. It may be that you managed in ingest a liquid such as gasoline during a prolonged stop or water from a puddle or such but let's examine the probability. In order for the engine to have been hydro-locked or "hydrauliced" as it is generally known in the trades, there would have to be enough liquid to more than fill the compression volume of the combustion chamber. If enough gasoline were present due to a leakage of shut off valve and carburetor needle seat leaking into the intake tract is is possible for the engine to have attempted to compress this liquid and thus bent the connecting rod. The result of even a small percentage of this leaked fuel would have resulting in a very flooded engine which would have been very difficult to start. The spark plug would have been wet with fuel and likely would have had to be removed and dried. The engine would have had to be cranked with wide open throttle for some time to clear the fuel. In addition it is most likely that the fuel would have washed the oil from the compression rings so that it quite likely would have been necessary to squirt some oil into the cylinder to provide ring seal enough so that sufficient compression pressure would be created to allow the engine to start. None of the above was mentioned and you certainly would have noticed such a badly flooded engine. What abut water? Since you didn't mention having crossed deep water or modified the air box, running in heavy rain or puddles it seems to be unlikely that you ingested water and hydrauliced the piston. Had you done this recently in the past it is possible that you bent and weakened the connecting rod but I doubt that you would have been able to do so without noticing the effects. If you had bent the connecting rod it would almost certainly have resulted in a noticeable increase in engine noise. None of the techs I talked with today could remember an instance of a bent connecting rod without engine noise. If the rod had been bent only slightly you would have noticed the noise long since. If the rod were bent so a large degree then compression volume above the piston would have bee increased which would have made for hard starting and lower power. IMO they don't know of which they speak with regards detonation on the crankcase and I would so testify were the question asked in court where my credentials have been validated on several occasions. While the grasp of cause for the failure does not make it impossible to make a successful repair, were if mine it would go elsewhere. Most of the techs were very amused at the concept of a confused piston....(VBG) Just my $0.02. Norm Hope this doesn't sound critical of you or any lister as that is not intended.

[wannabsmooth1]

--- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, "April Neave & Norm Keller" wrote: SNIP>>>>>>>>

> > While the grasp of cause for the failure does not make it impossible

to make

> a successful repair, were if mine it would go elsewhere. > > Most of the techs were very amused at the concept of a confused > piston....(VBG) > > Just my $0.02. > > Norm > > Hope this doesn't sound critical of you or any lister as that is not > intended.

Norm, The idea of a "confused piston" is pretty funny - wouldn't it make a great avatar, or graphic for a tee shirt, if there was a good enough graphic? I'm gonna do what I can to help Chuck, so I'll get to see all the parts at some point, too. I'll take a few pic's, especially if I see something interesting..... All the best, Mike Eagle Mfg & Eng since 1990 San Diego, Ca

[dooden]

--- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, "sbcglobal" wrote:

> Well... > > I asked the mechanic some of the questions that were raised on the

list, and the cause for the rod breaking has now changed. They've decided unquestionably that the engine was over-reved. How can I argue with logic and consistency like that? Guess I had hoped there would be some small chance that Kawasaki would be benevolent in a defective part claim, but it's clear from the start that this course is just plain self abuse.

> > The truth is that I bought a used bike - 450 miles - and have no

idea what was done to it before I bought it. Very well could have been over-reved. Could have been used once for some off road race. Who knows.

> > I really do appreciate all of your responses, thoughtful comments. I

will take pictures and post them.

> > Anybody got a spare engine.... > > Best to you all, > > Chuck

That sucks but as you said you bought a used bike, chances you take I suppose. Wonder if F1 has any diesel engines ready for public yet... One of the Diesel bikes is on my wish list and sure it will be there a number of years or more. Start watching eBay and search online for salvage yards to have one. Have you considered tearing it down and rebuilding if not toasted too bad. Did they actually open the engine up and identify a broke rod ? Or are they just guessing at that also ? Dooden A15 Green Ape

[Maxson, Glen]

New bike, 10 mi. on the odo. Bike starts and idles normally. Ride a mile and the bike stalls (choke is off, fuel is on and there's plenty of fuel in the tank). The only way to restart the bike is to turn the throttle wide open then feather is back 'til the bike starts. At this point it blows out a lot of black smoke and won't idle at all. Keeping the rpms above 3k is the only way to get home. Stuck float or clogged jet is what the mechanic thinks (it did this before I took delivery, but checked out during their last test ride, so...). Any thoughts from this group on what's up? I bought this bike 'cause it's supposed to be as reliable as rain in Ketchikan, but so far I'm not impressed. Any ideas before I take it back to the dealer this afternoon would be helpful. THANKS - Glen M. PS - This is not operator error. I have been riding for 38 years and do all maintenance on all the bikes I have owned... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[sbcglobal]

Dooden, They tore the engine down. I took a look at it. No scoring on the piston or cylinder. No evidence of coolant leakage. Valves not bent. Everything looks good except that darn rod. Looks like I won the "bad rod" lottery! I'm still really stuck on believing that driving the KLR 80 mph for extended periods constitutes over-revving. Just doesn't fit the KLR reputation. I've got calls in to Kawasaki, but if they do anything it will be strictly a "gimmee". They sure don't have to. The diesel idea was suggested yesterday. I like that idea a lot! I'm going to check it out. I'll let y'all know what I find. Chuck

----- Original Message ----- From: Dooden To: DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2005 4:10 AM Subject: [DSN_KLR650] Re: Indestructible A15 KLR 650 snaps rod at just over 2K miles --- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, "sbcglobal" wrote: > Well... > > I asked the mechanic some of the questions that were raised on the list, and the cause for the rod breaking has now changed. They've decided unquestionably that the engine was over-reved. How can I argue with logic and consistency like that? Guess I had hoped there would be some small chance that Kawasaki would be benevolent in a defective part claim, but it's clear from the start that this course is just plain self abuse. > > The truth is that I bought a used bike - 450 miles - and have no idea what was done to it before I bought it. Very well could have been over-reved. Could have been used once for some off road race. Who knows. > > I really do appreciate all of your responses, thoughtful comments. I will take pictures and post them. > > Anybody got a spare engine.... > > Best to you all, > > Chuck That sucks but as you said you bought a used bike, chances you take I suppose. Wonder if F1 has any diesel engines ready for public yet... One of the Diesel bikes is on my wish list and sure it will be there a number of years or more. Start watching eBay and search online for salvage yards to have one. Have you considered tearing it down and rebuilding if not toasted too bad. Did they actually open the engine up and identify a broke rod ? Or are they just guessing at that also ? Dooden A15 Green Ape Archive Quicksearch at: http://www.angelfire.com/ut/moab/klr650_data_search.html List sponsored by Dual Sport News at: www.dualsportnews.com List FAQ courtesy of Chris Krok at: www.bigcee.com/klr650faq.html Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[sbcglobal]

Norm, The credibility of service writer, Luciano, and the tech, Jesse, at Alba Action Sports in Poway, CA, has deteriorated for me from withholding laughter at their first diagnosis, to completely writing them off to keep myself from wasting energy in a losing proposition after their second "new" diagnosis. In both the diagnosis of hydro lock and over-revving causing rod breaking (in a KLR!!!) they said "oh yeah, happens all the time". I'd just love to hear some of their other stories. The best resources are the people on this list. People have stepped up with offer to assist in rebuilding, parting out engines. Hope I get the opportunity to pay back. Chuck

----- Original Message ----- From: April Neave & Norm Keller To: DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2005 7:57 PM Subject: [DSN_KLR650] Re: Re: Indestructible A15 KLR 650 snaps rod at just over 2K miles I told the story about crankcase detonation to about 20 automotive techs today in my travels and they really got a kick out of it! There is simply no way that fuel will detonate in the crankcase and cause any piston or connecting rod problems. If one simply considers the forces involved in generating the KLR's power output then it can be seen that the connecting rod is extremely robust in withstanding both compression and tension loads. The force required to break or even stretch the rod would be tremendous. Now consider that the pressure acting on the bottom of the piston would have to be at least as great as that acting on the top during the power stroke. There is simply no way that the crankcase would withstand this sort of pressure even if it could be generated by some sort of fuel leak. The side covers would be blown open, the seals popped out, etc. It may be that you managed in ingest a liquid such as gasoline during a prolonged stop or water from a puddle or such but let's examine the probability. In order for the engine to have been hydro-locked or "hydrauliced" as it is generally known in the trades, there would have to be enough liquid to more than fill the compression volume of the combustion chamber. If enough gasoline were present due to a leakage of shut off valve and carburetor needle seat leaking into the intake tract is is possible for the engine to have attempted to compress this liquid and thus bent the connecting rod. The result of even a small percentage of this leaked fuel would have resulting in a very flooded engine which would have been very difficult to start. The spark plug would have been wet with fuel and likely would have had to be removed and dried. The engine would have had to be cranked with wide open throttle for some time to clear the fuel. In addition it is most likely that the fuel would have washed the oil from the compression rings so that it quite likely would have been necessary to squirt some oil into the cylinder to provide ring seal enough so that sufficient compression pressure would be created to allow the engine to start. None of the above was mentioned and you certainly would have noticed such a badly flooded engine. What abut water? Since you didn't mention having crossed deep water or modified the air box, running in heavy rain or puddles it seems to be unlikely that you ingested water and hydrauliced the piston. Had you done this recently in the past it is possible that you bent and weakened the connecting rod but I doubt that you would have been able to do so without noticing the effects. If you had bent the connecting rod it would almost certainly have resulted in a noticeable increase in engine noise. None of the techs I talked with today could remember an instance of a bent connecting rod without engine noise. If the rod had been bent only slightly you would have noticed the noise long since. If the rod were bent so a large degree then compression volume above the piston would have bee increased which would have made for hard starting and lower power. IMO they don't know of which they speak with regards detonation on the crankcase and I would so testify were the question asked in court where my credentials have been validated on several occasions. While the grasp of cause for the failure does not make it impossible to make a successful repair, were if mine it would go elsewhere. Most of the techs were very amused at the concept of a confused piston....(VBG) Just my $0.02. Norm Hope this doesn't sound critical of you or any lister as that is not intended. Archive Quicksearch at: http://www.angelfire.com/ut/moab/klr650_data_search.html List sponsored by Dual Sport News at: www.dualsportnews.com List FAQ courtesy of Chris Krok at: www.bigcee.com/klr650faq.html Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]