knobbie mefo

[Don S]

I find it ironic that we point fingers at the oil producing countries whenever the cost of oil goes up by one cent per barrel and the cost of gas goes up $1.00 per gallon at the same time! I'm not the best mathematician although, I certainly have a problem with this problem. The amount of broom handle up our a$$es from the oil producing countries is a sliver compared to the gouging by the oil companies themselves. From the recent increases in the cost of fuel, it would appear that the oil companies will not be happy until the tips of the broom straws are left protruding from our butts like the singed tail feathers of a turkey escaping at light speed from a burning barn. Don't look to our govenments to help us. Every time the cost of gas goes up one cent per gallon, it's a windfall in taxes for the governments. Don S. J T wrote: Right. As I see it, the best way to stick it to the Saudis, Hugo Chavez, Iran, etc., is to decrease demand for the stuff, along with exploring the types of options John proposes, not to rip the tops off of mountains in West Virginia and elsewhere. A certain public official (who shall remain nameless) has told us that energy conservation is a sign of personal virtue, but that it shouldn't be part of a comprehensive energy policy. That makes no sense to me. Apparently it makes no sense to his boss either, because said boss has now started talking publicly about conservation. Here in the northeast, hybrid cars with only one occupant can use HOV lanes at rush hour. And yes, motorcycles can, too.

>From: John Kokola >To: Ronald Criswell , >DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com >Subject: Re: [DSN_KLR650] NKLR: Re: Eco Friendly nature of Hybrid Cars >Date: Sun, 14 May 2006 15:49:00 -0400 > >Nuclear. Wind. Solar. Higher CAFE standards. Better mass-transit >systems in urban areas. Smaller cars on the road. Houses that are >built more tightly and for greater efficiency ... with SIPs and ICFs, >for example. Heating with wood (outside of urban areas), in an >efficient, EPA-regulated stove. > >I definitely agree with you on self-sufficiency, but I don't think that >we should continually be looking for more fossil fuel resources, >especially *without changing how we use them.* There are smarter, >cleaner ways around our energy problems. > >I'm not looking to argue, I'm just saying that there are better >resources available to us than coal. > >--John Kokola > >Ronald Criswell wrote: > > > And your suggestion is ............. for fueling America? We have a > > shit load of wilderness in this country. I am not for ruining the > > land but surely there is a happy medium. We could go back to the > > horse I suppose but then someone would complain about the methane gas > > released into the atmosphere. Still a good deal of oil and gas left > > here ..... but you can't drill offshore in California, Florida, the > > rest of the North slope etc. I have been to Alaska and it is all > > wilderness and would want to keep most of it that way, but I also > > don't want to make Chavez, the Saudis, Iran etc. richer than they > > are. Energy self sufficiency should be the number one issue to me in > > the country. > > > > >Archive Quicksearch at: >http://www.angelfire.com/ut/moab/klr650_data_search.html >List sponsored by Dual Sport News at: www.dualsportnews.com >List FAQ courtesy of Chris Krok at: www.bigcee.com/klr650faq.html >Member Map at: http://www.frappr.com/dsnklr650 >Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > >

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[Bogdan Swider]

On 5/17/06 2:16 PM, "Don S" wrote:

> I find it ironic that we point fingers at the oil producing countries whenever > the cost of oil goes up by one cent per barrel and the cost of gas goes up > $1.00 per gallon at the same time!

I'm no economist, I'm ignorant of the corporate culture in the energy sector and don't follow oil futures but didn't oil go from around $40 a barrel to $70 ? That's not a cent or am I missing something ? Bogdan

[Don S]

Hi Bogdan: I used exaggerted figures to make a point. That point is that the cost of gasoline per gallon is not proportionate to the relative increase in the oil price. Does the price of processing the oil into gasoline increase because the oil became more expensive? Have you ever wondered why the price of gasoline goes up just before the weekend and particularly on holidays with long weekends then drops within a day or two afterward? Big Oil sticks it to us more so than the oil producing countries. Please don't try to pass it off as supply and demand. Unless of course you believe that the refineries doubled up on capacity (and operating costs) during said weekend to make up for difference then sell it cheaper because they have too much supply? One does not need any particular qualifications other than common sense to observe the obvious. Don S. Bogdan Swider wrote:

On 5/17/06 2:16 PM, "Don S" wrote: > I find it ironic that we point fingers at the oil producing countries whenever > the cost of oil goes up by one cent per barrel and the cost of gas goes up > $1.00 per gallon at the same time! I'm no economist, I'm ignorant of the corporate culture in the energy sector and don't follow oil futures but didn't oil go from around $40 a barrel to $70 ? That's not a cent or am I missing something ? Bogdan Archive Quicksearch at: http://www.angelfire.com/ut/moab/klr650_data_search.html List sponsored by Dual Sport News at: www.dualsportnews.com List FAQ courtesy of Chris Krok at: www.bigcee.com/klr650faq.html Member Map at: http://www.frappr.com/dsnklr650 Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2 /min or less. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Bogdan Swider]

> > > > > I used exaggerted figures to make a point. That point is that the cost of > gasoline per gallon is not proportionate to the relative increase in the oil > price. Does the price of processing the oil into gasoline increase because > the oil became more expensive? > > > OK now I understand your train of thought. > > Bogdan

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[J T]

Then let me re-phrase: The best way to stick it to all of those entities, including Big Oil, is to decrease consumption. I have no problem lumping one set of greed-heads in with another. Here in NY state, where gas taxes are the highest in the country, the state senate is talking about rolling back the state tax on gas. But the oil industry "can't guarantee" that all, or any, of the savings will be passed along to the consumer. I'm not following your math, either.

>From: Don S >I find it ironic that we point fingers at the oil producing countries >whenever the cost of oil goes up by one cent per barrel and the cost of gas >goes up $1.00 per gallon at the same time! I'm not the best mathematician >although, I certainly have a problem with this problem. The amount of >broom handle up our a$$es from the oil producing countries is a sliver >compared to the gouging by the oil companies themselves. From the recent >increases in the cost of fuel, it would appear that the oil companies will >not be happy until the tips of the broom straws are left protruding from >our butts like the singed tail feathers of a turkey escaping at light speed >from a burning barn. Don't look to our govenments to help us. Every time >the cost of gas goes up one cent per gallon, it's a windfall in taxes for >the governments. > > Don S. > >J T wrote: > >Right. As I see it, the best way to stick it to the Saudis, Hugo Chavez, >Iran, etc., is to decrease demand for the stuff, along with exploring the >types of options John proposes, not to rip the tops off of mountains in >West >Virginia and elsewhere. A certain public official (who shall remain >nameless) has told us that energy conservation is a sign of personal >virtue, >but that it shouldn't be part of a comprehensive energy policy. That makes >no sense to me. Apparently it makes no sense to his boss either, because >said boss has now started talking publicly about conservation. > >Here in the northeast, hybrid cars with only one occupant can use HOV lanes >at rush hour. And yes, motorcycles can, too. > > > >From: John Kokola > >To: Ronald Criswell , > >DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com > >Subject: Re: [DSN_KLR650] NKLR: Re: Eco Friendly nature of Hybrid Cars > >Date: Sun, 14 May 2006 15:49:00 -0400 > > > >Nuclear. Wind. Solar. Higher CAFE standards. Better mass-transit > >systems in urban areas. Smaller cars on the road. Houses that are > >built more tightly and for greater efficiency ... with SIPs and ICFs, > >for example. Heating with wood (outside of urban areas), in an > >efficient, EPA-regulated stove. > > > >I definitely agree with you on self-sufficiency, but I don't think that > >we should continually be looking for more fossil fuel resources, > >especially *without changing how we use them.* There are smarter, > >cleaner ways around our energy problems. > > > >I'm not looking to argue, I'm just saying that there are better > >resources available to us than coal. > > > >--John Kokola > > > >Ronald Criswell wrote: > > > > > And your suggestion is ............. for fueling America? We have a > > > shit load of wilderness in this country. I am not for ruining the > > > land but surely there is a happy medium. We could go back to the > > > horse I suppose but then someone would complain about the methane gas > > > released into the atmosphere. Still a good deal of oil and gas left > > > here ..... but you can't drill offshore in California, Florida, the > > > rest of the North slope etc. I have been to Alaska and it is all > > > wilderness and would want to keep most of it that way, but I also > > > don't want to make Chavez, the Saudis, Iran etc. richer than they > > > are. Energy self sufficiency should be the number one issue to me in > > > the country. > > > > > > > > > >Archive Quicksearch at: > >http://www.angelfire.com/ut/moab/klr650_data_search.html > >List sponsored by Dual Sport News at: www.dualsportnews.com > >List FAQ courtesy of Chris Krok at: www.bigcee.com/klr650faq.html > >Member Map at: http://www.frappr.com/dsnklr650 > >Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >_________________________________________________________________ >Don t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! >http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ > > > >Archive Quicksearch at: >http://www.angelfire.com/ut/moab/klr650_data_search.html >List sponsored by Dual Sport News at: www.dualsportnews.com >List FAQ courtesy of Chris Krok at: www.bigcee.com/klr650faq.html >Member Map at: http://www.frappr.com/dsnklr650 >Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >http://mail.yahoo.com

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[Don S]

Right on Geoff. The source of high fuel prices is not just over seas. The fattest rats are closest to home. As long as our governments support the unwarranted fuel price gouging, we will forever be at the mercy of Big Oil. We are far too dependent on fossil fuel to have any serious impact on the cycle. Although, by each of us minimizing our consumption and planning our travel requirements with that in mind, we can achieve small personal reductions. Collectively, in the long run, it will be good for the environment and maybe a bit of a burr under the saddle of Big Oil. Don S. Oldrice wrote: Want real data to explain all this oil crap? It's soooooo simple. What are the three BIGGEST oil companies? - check them out. What were they're best years - PROFIT? - the last three. Check them out. WHY are these companies making record profits IF the cost to them has increased? It hasn't. They're still getting oil at nearly $20 a barrel. Remember, you and I don't use oil from the Middle East. Ours is from South America where they aren't even a member of OPEC. Ok, the vast majority of our gas in our KLRs is from Columbia. The rest is from a multitude of places. But you get my point. They're literally taking our money. Think about it. Geoff- www.oldrice.com

----- Original Message ----- From: "Don S" Subject: Re: [DSN_KLR650] NKLR: Re: Eco Friendly nature of Hybrid Cars Hi Bogdan: I used exaggerted figures to make a point. That point is that the cost of gasoline per gallon is not proportionate to the relative increase in the oil price. Does the price of processing the oil into gasoline increase because the oil became more expensive? Have you ever wondered why the price of gasoline goes up just before the weekend and particularly on holidays with long weekends then drops within a day or two afterward? Big Oil sticks it to us more so than the oil producing countries. Please don't try to pass it off as supply and demand. Unless of course you believe that the refineries doubled up on capacity (and operating costs) during said weekend to make up for difference then sell it cheaper because they have too much supply? One does not need any particular qualifications other than common sense to observe the obvious. Don S. Bogdan Swider wrote: On 5/17/06 2:16 PM, "Don S" wrote: > I find it ironic that we point fingers at the oil producing countries > whenever > the cost of oil goes up by one cent per barrel and the cost of gas goes up > $1.00 per gallon at the same time! I'm no economist, I'm ignorant of the corporate culture in the energy sector and don't follow oil futures but didn't oil go from around $40 a barrel to $70 ? That's not a cent or am I missing something ? Bogdan Archive Quicksearch at: http://www.angelfire.com/ut/moab/klr650_data_search.html List sponsored by Dual Sport News at: www.dualsportnews.com List FAQ courtesy of Chris Krok at: www.bigcee.com/klr650faq.html Member Map at: http://www.frappr.com/dsnklr650 Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2 /min or less. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Archive Quicksearch at: http://www.angelfire.com/ut/moab/klr650_data_search.html List sponsored by Dual Sport News at: www.dualsportnews.com List FAQ courtesy of Chris Krok at: www.bigcee.com/klr650faq.html Member Map at: http://www.frappr.com/dsnklr650 Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- Sneak preview the all-new Yahoo.com. It's not radically different. Just radically better. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Blake Sobiloff]

On 5/17/06, Don S wrote:

> I used exaggerted figures to make a point. That point is that the cost of > gasoline per gallon is not proportionate to the relative increase in the oil > price. Does the price of processing the oil into gasoline increase because > the oil became more expensive?

To make matters even more confusing, the nightly news reports on oil *futures* prices on the spot market, which is not the same thing as what oil companies pay for crude to refine. There are usually long-term contracts in place, much like what the airlines do when they hedge their fuel costs. (Did you ever wonder why Southwest's prices have remained fairly low? They have the best hedge plan in the business and can buy fuel cheaper than anyone else. American Airlines sold most of their hedge agreements a couple of years ago trying to stay solvent, and now they're getting badly squeezed by the rising fuel prices.)

> Please don't try to pass it off as supply and demand. Unless of course > you believe that the refineries doubled up on capacity (and operating costs) > during said weekend to make up for difference then sell it cheaper because > they have too much supply?

No, but a small fluctuation in the face of increased demand helps moderate the demand and ensure adequate supply for the folks who really need it. Remember, a little less than 20% of the refining capacity in the US is still off-line due to the hurricanes last year, and the refineries just recently did their turnarounds (going off-line for maintenance and to change the formulations to take begin adding ethanol, per the government's mandate). It happens every summer and winter, as you've noticed. The US's consumption of refined fuels is way ahead of what we can produce; we import 20% of the refined fuel we use (even when all the refineries are online). We desperately need more refining capacity, but most projects are hopelessly tied up in NIMBY/environmental strings. This is the real reason prices are up. The refineries aren't paying (substantially) more for crude, but the only way they can keep from selling out of refined product is to raise the price, thus decreasing demand. -- Blake Sobiloff http://sobiloff.typepad.com/> San Jose, CA (USA)

[Mike Frey]

Don S wrote:

> Please don't try to pass it off as supply and demand. >

I make no apologies for the oil companies whatsoever (and also feel like we are being legally raped), but it IS supply and demand. I've been in NYC, Los Angeles, Philadelphia, Baltimore / DC, and many places in between in the past 6 months and see no slowdown in traffic. If anything, it looks like MORE people are driving! I-405 in L.A. ("the 405" to left coasters) was 10 mph bumper to bumper last Saturday night. Where the heck was everyone going? In my little PA town, traffic looks as busy as ever. If people cut their gasoline usage by 10% or more, the price per gallon would fall. There is no evidence that this has happened yet, so prices remain high. (Some reports indicate that people are cutting back on driving, but I haven't seen any good figures) And, no, I am not doing my part to cut back on fuel use other than I drive my 15 mpg pickup less often. Mike

[E.L. Green]

--- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, Bogdan Swider wrote:

> and don't follow oil futures but didn't oil go from around $40 a

barrel to

> $70 ?

Let's review some math. In December 2001, oil reached its recent historical low at $16.21 per barrel. Gasoline was $1.04 per gallon. Subtract out the gas taxes of approximately 35 cents/gallon, and gasoline was $0.69 per gallon. In April 2006, oil reached $62.50/barrel. That's 3.86 times the price it was in December 2001. So you would expect gasoline to be 3.86 times more expensive, or $2.66/gallon, plus the taxes on top of that, for an at-the-pump of around $3.01/gallon. Now, let's look at what the price of gas *REALLY* is today. According to the U.S. government, the average price per gallon on May 15 (including taxes) is 2.87/gallon nationwide. Conclusion: While there are some regional areas where there is clearly some price gouging going on (such as the West Coast and New York), the price of gas is about what you'd expect given the rise in cost of the base stock. Oil company profits are at record highs because they maintain the same profit margin as a percentage of the price per barrel, not because they've raised their profit margin percentage. -E

[Randy Shultz]

Everybody has a right to their own opinion, but that doesn't mean that all opinions are equally informed. Many see conspiracies under every rock, but if they spent the time to study the industry I don't think they'd be making some of these statements. For all their "control" of prices, refiners and producers sure took a financial blood bath in the 1980's and at various other times. Free financial markets are amazingly efficient. If you "do the math" as some posters have pointed out, the truth about that is obvious. Oil is a worldwide commodity with no effective cartel these days. The price is set against the backdrop of supply and demand, but the spot price set on the margin by market participants: largely speculators and hedgers. In my opinion, there is a huge risk premium in the market right now because of an unusual confluence of factors: war in the middle east, nuclear acivity in Iran, sabotage threats, local politics in Nigeria, unusual hurricane activity last year in the gulf and the fear of a possible repeat, and now several South American countries finding opportunities to "renegotiate contracts", some would say nationlize, their foregn-owned oil resources. There are many other factors as well. We live in interesting times.