Re: B9 Arm centering issue demo

David Schulpius
Posts: 1163
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2011 7:57 pm

Re: B9 Arm centering issue demo

Post by David Schulpius » Sat Jan 09, 2016 10:13 pm

Jim, OK, now I get what your saying. It's sinking in through the mists of my muddles mind. LOL. These are some great ideas. in fact I've gotten lots of help from many robot builders from different places. I need to explore all the great ideas and advice. What is amazing is all the wonderful people willing to lend a hand when it's needed. I'm very grateful
Basil, Level of experience? Rocket Science? Heck, if I can do this anyone can. A few years ago I didn't even know the difference between a DC motor and a servo, let alone how to control them. No collage degree hanging on my wall either. LOL
Dave Schulpius
On Sat, Jan 9, 2016 at 4:01 PM, 'Jim Easley' jimeasley.tech@gmail.com [B9Builders] wrote:

Not to fear Basil. It is a learning experience for all and you don t need a degree around here. From: B9Builders@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, January 09, 2016 1:47 PM To: B9Builders@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [B9Builders] B9 Arm centering issue demo
In regard to skill levels within this group, this level of complexity is scaring the daylights out of me and I'm thinking I should go out and get a Robotics Degree or Rocket Science Degree or similar if intend to build "the big guy"... you guys are amazing Basil (Down Under) -----Original Message-----
From: 'Jim Easley' jimeasley.tech@gmail.com [B9Builders]
To: B9Builders
Sent: Sun, Jan 10, 2016 8:29 am
Subject: Re: [B9Builders] B9 Arm centering issue demo

Dave, I was not actually suggesting adding any switches to your design. In essence much like your existing optical interrupter only with a separate emitter and detector with one located at the slide platform and the other near the wrist. Having a direct line of sight within the rubber arm could be handled with a small diameter tube with an aperture at the receiving end. I hear you on your space requirements as well as your need for natural motion. Just fitting the components in the space you have available must have been difficult. The only way I know to achieve near absolute positioning is either a fixed stop (perhaps some sort of solenoid retractable pin) or a closed loop system with enough resolution to achieve the accuracy needed. As you have already experienced, gravity and hysteresis is not easy to eliminate in the real world. You may have already researched this but, take a look at multi-axis CNC control. I know it might seem like overkill for a hobby project however, this might be right up your alley. If your project ever becomes a vendor item, numerical control could open up additional possibilities along with pre-programmed motion routines. Please forgive me for rambling on. I think we all want to help and what you are trying to achieve is amazing and certainly promotes a higher level of skill within the B9 group. From: B9Builders@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, January 08, 2016 9:01 PM To: B9Builders@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [B9Builders] B9 Arm centering issue demo Jim, Your probably right. There is a bit of play in the worm gear. However I thought gravity and the weight of the arm would keep any slop out of the stopping points. Also your comment about the extra switches is spot on. However I'm not sure how to script for this. I want the arm to look somewhat real as it comes t rest. I really dont want it to be moving around a lot looking for a couple switches before it comes to rest. One of my biggest roadblocks is space. I just don't have a lot of room to fit sensors and feedback devices on this thing. I'm leaning towards trying to find an encoder that ill fit into my setup. It needs to be almost flat to fit my needs. One big drawback with useing an encoder in my robot arm is that when the robot is first started up the encoder must be homed before it can be used. Of course that could be done in a startup routine. Thanks for the help. Dave Schulpius On Fri, Jan 8, 2016 at 1:53 PM, 'Jim Easley' jimeasley.tech@gmail.com [B9Builders] wrote:
Dave, I watched your video and it was quite impressive. You have a lot going on in your control setup to be sure. The mechanical assembly looks really good. It has been my experience the mesh between gears can introduce some play in an assembly. I believe what you are trying to accomplish is much like a CNC operation. That being said, you should consider an encoder based loop rather than one based on voltage for absolute positioning. As you depicted in the video, given the arc of travel in the joint a little goes a long way and while gear motors provide lots of torque they do introduce positioning problems. I do think using the optical sensor was a good idea however that type of setup requires a separate trip point for each direction. As a suggestion, it would be simpler and more accurate if you used a reflective or two piece sensor at the joint reading the position of the wrist rather than a flag interrupter at the joint. This could be used as your home position for that axis. Just my 2 cents. From: B9Builders@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2016 10:29 AM To: B9Builders@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [B9Builders] B9 Arm centering issue demo Hi David R. Nice suggestion about the stops. I'll have to think about it and see if that can be engendered. It may be difficult because the arm needs to swing back and forth past the center point. Thanks, Dave Schulpius On Jan 6, 2016 2:22 PM, "David Reabe dar19904@yahoo.com [B9Builders]" wrote:
Dave,can you put something like a bracket,or something that restricts it from moving beyond your stop points?


On Wednesday, January 6, 2016 12:57 PM, "David Schulpius dschulpius@wi.rr.com [B9Builders]" wrote:


Hi gang, I'm getting very close to finishing up my B9 Arm. Actually it's mostly done unless I come across a component needing a redesign. I'm in the coding and control phase right now. I thought I'd share this video I took last night. It's actually meant to send to Demention Engineering (Kangaroo X2) and Sptra Symble (Softpot) for troubleshooting help. It's long at 1/2 hour and kinda technical but you may enjoy it. I'm having a small problem with my arm not stopping at the same point depending on what direction it's heading. I send the same stop point from each side and it reports back a different value and over shoots. Anyway, feel free to comment and have fun. Dave Schulpius :
http://youtu.be/1HcrOEeRpw4


basilgrant327
Posts: 14
Joined: Fri Dec 25, 2015 4:04 pm

Re: B9 Arm centering issue demo

Post by basilgrant327 » Mon Jan 11, 2016 6:27 am

Yeh David, well pat yourself on the back mate, your B9 is simply awesome, I hope I can visit you over there one day and see him and of course meet you,   Regards,   Basil     -----Original Message-----
From: David Schulpius dschulpius@wi.rr.com [B9Builders]
To: Tobor001@aol.com [B9Builders]
Sent: Sun, Jan 10, 2016 2:13 pm
Subject: Re: [B9Builders] B9 Arm centering issue demo

  Jim, OK, now I get what your saying. It's sinking in through the mists of my muddles mind. LOL. These are some great ideas. in fact I've gotten lots of help from many robot builders from different places. I need to explore all the great ideas and advice. What is amazing is all the wonderful people willing to lend a hand when it's needed. I'm very grateful 
Basil, Level of experience? Rocket Science? Heck, if I can do this anyone can. A few years ago I didn't even know the difference between a DC motor and a servo, let alone how to control them. No collage degree hanging on my wall either. LOL
Dave Schulpius
On Sat, Jan 9, 2016 at 4:01 PM, 'Jim Easley' jimeasley.tech@gmail.com [B9Builders] wrote:
  Not to fear Basil. It is a learning experience for all and you don t need a degree around here.   From: B9Builders@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, January 09, 2016 1:47 PM To: B9Builders@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [B9Builders] B9 Arm centering issue demo     In regard to skill levels within this group, this level of complexity is scaring the daylights out of me and I'm thinking I should go out and get a Robotics Degree or Rocket Science Degree or similar if intend to build "the big guy"... you guys are amazing   Basil (Down Under)     -----Original Message-----
From: 'Jim Easley' jimeasley.tech@gmail.com [B9Builders]
To: B9Builders
Sent: Sun, Jan 10, 2016 8:29 am
Subject: Re: [B9Builders] B9 Arm centering issue demo

  Dave,   I was not actually suggesting adding any switches to your design. In essence much like your existing optical interrupter only with a separate emitter and detector with one located at the slide platform and the other near the wrist. Having a direct line of sight within the rubber arm could be handled with a small diameter tube with an aperture at the receiving end. I hear you on your space requirements as well as your need for natural motion. Just fitting the components in the space you have available must have been difficult. The only way I know to achieve near absolute positioning is either a fixed stop (perhaps some sort of solenoid retractable pin) or a closed loop system with enough resolution to achieve the accuracy needed. As you have already experienced, gravity and hysteresis is not easy to eliminate in the real world. You may have already researched this but, take a look at multi-axis CNC control. I know it might seem like overkill for a hobby project however, this might be right up your alley. If your project ever becomes a vendor item, numerical control could open up additional possibilities along with pre-programmed motion routines.   Please forgive me for rambling on. I think we all want to help and what you are trying to achieve is amazing and certainly promotes a higher level of skill within the B9 group.   From: B9Builders@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, January 08, 2016 9:01 PM To: B9Builders@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [B9Builders] B9 Arm centering issue demo     Jim, Your probably right. There is a bit of play in the worm gear. However I thought gravity and the weight of the arm would keep any slop out of the stopping points. Also your comment about the extra switches is spot on. However I'm not sure how to script for this. I want the arm to look somewhat real as it comes t rest. I really dont want it to be moving around a lot looking for a couple switches before it comes to rest. One of my biggest roadblocks is space. I just don't have a lot of room to fit sensors and feedback devices on this thing. I'm leaning towards trying to find an encoder that ill fit into my setup. It needs to be almost flat to fit my needs. One big drawback with useing an encoder in my robot arm is that when the robot is first started up the encoder must be homed before it can be used. Of course that could be done in a startup routine.   Thanks for the help. Dave Schulpius   On Fri, Jan 8, 2016 at 1:53 PM, 'Jim Easley' jimeasley.tech@gmail.com [B9Builders] wrote:
  Dave, I watched your video and it was quite impressive. You have a lot going on in your control setup to be sure. The mechanical assembly looks really good. It has been my experience the mesh between gears can introduce some play in an assembly. I believe what you are trying to accomplish is much like a CNC operation. That being said, you should consider an encoder based loop rather than one based on voltage for absolute positioning. As you depicted in the video, given the arc of travel in the joint a little goes a long way and while gear motors provide lots of torque they do introduce positioning problems. I do think using the optical sensor was a good idea however that type of setup requires a separate trip point for each direction. As a suggestion, it would be simpler and more accurate if you used a reflective or two piece sensor at the joint reading the position of the wrist rather than a flag interrupter at the joint. This could be used as your home position for that axis. Just my 2 cents.   From: B9Builders@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2016 10:29 AM To: B9Builders@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [B9Builders] B9 Arm centering issue demo     Hi David R. Nice suggestion about the stops. I'll have to think about it and see if that can be engendered. It may be difficult because the arm needs to swing back and forth past the center point. Thanks, Dave Schulpius On Jan 6, 2016 2:22 PM, "David Reabe dar19904@yahoo.com [B9Builders]" wrote:
  Dave,can you put something like a bracket,or something that restricts it from moving beyond your stop points?


On Wednesday, January 6, 2016 12:57 PM, "David Schulpius dschulpius@wi.rr.com [B9Builders]" wrote:


  Hi gang,  I'm getting very close to finishing up my B9 Arm. Actually it's mostly done unless I come across a component needing a redesign.  I'm in the coding and control phase right now. I thought I'd share this video I took last night. It's actually meant to send to Demention Engineering (Kangaroo X2) and Sptra Symble (Softpot) for troubleshooting help. It's long at 1/2 hour and kinda technical but you may enjoy it. I'm having a small problem with my arm not stopping at the same point depending on what direction it's heading. I send the same stop point from each side and it reports back a different value and over shoots. Anyway, feel free to comment and have fun. Dave Schulpius  :
http://youtu.be/1HcrOEeRpw4

 
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dschulpius
Posts: 54
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 8:47 pm

Re: B9 Arm centering issue demo

Post by dschulpius » Sun Jan 17, 2016 12:05 pm

Just a short update (I hope). Edit: Nope, it a long one. 

I have not heard back from Spectra Symbol about the Softpot or Dimension Engineering regarding the Kangaroo X2. It's been almost 2 weeks now. I did send a second request but nothing back. I'm very disappointed in them but not really surprised. DE puts out great products but myself and other people I personally know have found their customer support spotty and slim. Also, I do have a little history with Spectra Symbol's customer support. The one other time I asked for help from them I got a quick responce. Not this time. It would be nice if these companies don't know how to help to just send me a reply saying they don't know. This may not be the case but I'm left with the impression that they just ignored my request for assistance. Image Image

So, as usual I'm left with the feeling that I have to figure stuff like this out on my own. However, thank goodness I'm wrong about that! I've had many fellow builders jump in and lend a hand with support, ideas and advice. You guys are wonderful and have helped in more ways than you know. I really have to mention a certain builder by the name of Davis H. from Louisiana. He has spent hours personally studying this issue and more then two full hours on the phone with me going through the issue step by step. It doesn't seem enough to say "Thanks David"! 

Anyway David H. has suggested many things that may be causing this issue of not being able to get the arm motor to stop at the same point depending on which side of the radius it's being approached from. I think that the total sum of this issue is a combination of a few of the problems David and others have identified. I've been working through most of these suggestions and have made some real progress and also eliminated a few things that were not the issue. 

So far the things I've done that have really made a difference:

Reduce the speed of the arm over all and more so as it reached the set point. I found this to be the best way to reach a consistent set point. 

Reduce all the deadband values as far as I could without getting a rocking action as it's trying to stay at the set point. Using the DeScribe software I found there are at least 3 deadband settings. Two for position and one for speed. 

After I did some studying on PID adjustments and what they really are I tried to adjust the Coefficient values in the PID section. The Autotune filled these in for me but as I said before I had to redo them to get the motor to respond smoothly. With better understanding of each setting I was able to get better resolution of the set point (the point I'm trying to stop at). I was now able to stop with in a constant 2 or 3mv on each side of my set point. (I have to say here that the terms that DE uses for the different Gains are not the same as the rest of the world uses. They use terms like Fast and Slow Gain) This makes it even more difficult for the newbie to understand what needs to be set and changed). Image

Even though this resolution may have been enough to give me the tolerance I need on centering my arm my OCD kicked in. I thought I can do better then this. So I took another step David H. suggested and replaced the !0K resistors on the pos & neg pins between the Softpot and the Kangaroo X2. This would give me almost the full 5v (4.8 in think) that the Kangaroo is supplying the Softpot and expecting back to read (feedback) the variance as the arm moves. With the 10K resistors I was only getting 1.6 volts around the pot. Well, This change through off all my PID and limit settings in the Roo. None of my old setting would work and the arm was unusable. 

I had to try to do a new autotune and I was not looking forward to it. In the past (only on this arm setup) I was never able to get a successful tune with the arm fully weighted down. After removing the arm from the robot and mounting it directly to my workbench I tried a few autotunes and failed. The software always reported back that it "couldn't move the system" even thought the thing was rocking up and down wildly. Image Obviously the Kangaroo is not able to auto tune such a heavy asymmetrical load as I have. So I took off the front claw section (about 4 pounds) and attempted another Autotune. This time I had a quick and successful tune. When I tested the tune I had nice smooth action with nice ramping effect. However when I reattached the 4 pound claw section the movement sucked.

At least now I had a good baseline tune to work with. These past two days I've spent about 10 hours resetting and testing the PID settings for the Roo with the DeScribe software. Late last night I've finally got the arm moving smoothly with nice ramping. I think I have the resolution very close to where I can get this thing stopped at within one MV of my set point. At least that's what I can see in the Live Test section of the DeScribe Software. Today I'll hook this monstrosity up the EZB and see if all this did any good. 

Thanks again to all of yo that has lent a hand. Image Thank for nothing DE and SS! Image

Dave Schulpius

toblueiis
Posts: 270
Joined: Mon May 27, 2013 11:11 am

Re: B9 Arm centering issue demo

Post by toblueiis » Sun Jan 17, 2016 1:48 pm

Hello Dave,

thanks for your very kind words. It has been great working through this with you. I am so glad for you that you have made so much progress. Progress that has been hard earned.

I think that if DE would do a better job with their documentation, they wouldn't hardly need customer support. They seem to have a great product, but this is not a project to have to stumble through your efforts. Maybe we need to make a translation guide for their terminology to what common technical terms that the rest of the world uses (actually, I am serious on this point).

As you mention OCD, I think that many of us equate with you. I think about the great inventors of our past who had a determined spirit to work through such difficult situations seeking to find solutions to problems that they saw as resolvable, though they had such limited technology in their day. Edison wasn't trying to invent a bettter and more efficient light bulb, he just wanted to invent one that worked. Today, these great inventors would be condemned for their OCD and be told that they needed medication. The world doesn't understand commitment, dedication, and perseverance. It is great that you do have this spirit of determination and perseverance and that you share your learning with the rest of us. I will also say that you are a great encourager. You are one of those people in life that I would rather struggle through a difficult problem with, than to deal with others on an easy problem. You are a great contributor to the club, in many ways

thanks,

David M.

--------------------------------------------
On Sun, 1/17/16, dschulpius@gmail.com [B9Builders] wrote:

Subject: [B9Builders] Re: B9 Arm centering issue demo
To: B9Builders@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, January 17, 2016, 11:05 AM



Just a short update (I hope). Edit: Nope, it a long
one.

I have not heard back from Spectra Symbol about the
Softpot or Dimension Engineering regarding the Kangaroo X2.
It's been almost 2 weeks now. I did send a second
request but nothing back. I'm very disappointed in them
but not really surprised. DE puts out great products but
myself and other people I personally know have found their
customer support spotty and slim. Also, I do have a little
history with Spectra Symbol's customer support. The one
other time I asked for help from them I got a quick
responce. Not this time. It would be nice if these companies
don't know how to help to just send me a reply saying
they don't know. This may not be the case but I'm
left with the impression that they just ignored my request
for assistance.

So, as usual I'm left with the feeling that I
have to figure stuff like this out on my own. However, thank
goodness I'm wrong about that! I've had many fellow
builders jump in and lend a hand with support, ideas and
advice. You guys are wonderful and have helped in more ways
than you know. I really have to mention a certain builder by
the name of Davis H. from Louisiana. He has spent hours
personally studying this issue and more then two full hours
on the phone with me going through the issue step by step.
It doesn't seem enough to say "Thanks
David"!

Anyway David H. has suggested many things that may be
causing this issue of not being able to get the arm motor to
stop at the same point depending on which side of the radius
it's being approached from. I think that the total sum
of this issue is a combination of a few of the problems
David and others have identified. I've been working
through most of these suggestions and have made some real
progress and also eliminated a few things that were not the
issue.

So far the things I've done that have really made
a difference:

Reduce the speed of the arm over all and more so as
it reached the set point. I found this to be the best way to
reach a consistent set point.

Reduce all the deadband values as far as I could
without getting a rocking action as it's trying to stay
at the set point. Using the DeScribe software I found there
are at least 3 deadband settings. Two for position and one
for speed.

After I did some studying on PID adjustments and what
they really are I tried to adjust the Coefficient values in
the PID section. The Autotune filled these in for me but as
I said before I had to redo them to get the motor to respond
smoothly. With better understanding of each setting I was
able to get better resolution of the set point (the point
I'm trying to stop at). I was now able to stop with in a
constant 2 or 3mv on each side of my set point. (I have to
say here that the terms that DE uses for the different Gains
are not the same as the rest of the world uses. They use
terms like Fast and Slow Gain) This makes it even more
difficult for the newbie to understand what needs to be set
and changed).

Even though this resolution may have been enough to
give me the tolerance I need on centering my arm my OCD
kicked in. I thought I can do better then this. So I took
another step David H. suggested and replaced the !0K
resistors on the pos & neg pins between the Softpot and
the Kangaroo X2. This would give me almost the full 5v (4.8
in think) that the Kangaroo is supplying the Softpot and
expecting back to read (feedback) the variance as the arm
moves. With the 10K resistors I was only getting 1.6 volts
around the pot. Well, This change through off all my PID and
limit settings in the Roo. None of my old setting would work
and the arm was unusable.

I had to try to do a new autotune and I was not
looking forward to it. In the past (only on this arm setup)
I was never able to get a successful tune with the arm fully
weighted down. After removing the arm from the robot and
mounting it directly to my workbench I tried a few autotunes
and failed. The software always reported back that it
"couldn't move the system" even thought the
thing was rocking up and down wildly. Obviously the Kangaroo is not able to auto tune
such a heavy asymmetrical load as I have. So I took off the
front claw section (about 4 pounds) and attempted another
Autotune. This time I had a quick and successful tune. When
I tested the tune I had nice smooth action with nice ramping
effect. However when I reattached the 4 pound claw section
the movement sucked.

At least now I had a good baseline tune to work with.
These past two days I've spent about 10 hours resetting
and testing the PID settings for the Roo with the DeScribe
software. Late last night I've finally got the arm
moving smoothly with nice ramping. I think I have the
resolution very close to where I can get this thing stopped
at within one MV of my set point. At least that's what I
can see in the Live Test section of the DeScribe Software.
Today I'll hook this monstrosity up the EZB and see if
all this did any good.

Thanks again to all of yo that has lent a
hand. Thank for nothing DE and SS!

Dave Schulpius









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David Schulpius
Posts: 1163
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2011 7:57 pm

Re: B9 Arm centering issue demo

Post by David Schulpius » Sun Jan 17, 2016 6:13 pm

Wow, thanks David! Your making my head rather big. I totally agree with you on the inventors of the past and what they would face today and have to deal with today's attitudes that seems to be prevalent. There's a lot of good hard working visionaries today but their hard to find. I understand what your saying about making something from nothing when people are telling you "it ain't gonna work that way". It's one thing to take someones creation and make it better. It's a whole different thing bringing a thought that no one else has had the talent to do to life.
Take care and thanks again my friend. I'm sure I'll be knocking on your door again. ;-) Dave
On Sun, Jan 17, 2016 at 12:45 PM, toblueiis toblueiis@yahoo.com [B9Builders] wrote:

Hello Dave,

thanks for your very kind words. It has been great working through this with you. I am so glad for you that you have made so much progress. Progress that has been hard earned.

I think that if DE would do a better job with their documentation, they wouldn't hardly need customer support. They seem to have a great product, but this is not a project to have to stumble through your efforts. Maybe we need to make a translation guide for their terminology to what common technical terms that the rest of the world uses (actually, I am serious on this point).

As you mention OCD, I think that many of us equate with you. I think about the great inventors of our past who had a determined spirit to work through such difficult situations seeking to find solutions to problems that they saw as resolvable, though they had such limited technology in their day. Edison wasn't trying to invent a bettter and more efficient light bulb, he just wanted to invent one that worked. Today, these great inventors would be condemned for their OCD and be told that they needed medication. The world doesn't understand commitment, dedication, and perseverance. It is great that you do have this spirit of determination and perseverance and that you share your learning with the rest of us. I will also say that you are a great encourager. You are one of those people in life that I would rather struggle through a difficult problem with, than to deal with others on an easy problem. You are a great contributor to the club, in many ways

thanks,

David M.

--------------------------------------------
On Sun, 1/17/16, dschulpius@gmail.com [B9Builders] wrote:

Subject: [B9Builders] Re: B9 Arm centering issue demo
To: B9Builders@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, January 17, 2016, 11:05 AM



Just a short update (I hope). Edit: Nope, it a long
one.

I have not heard back from Spectra Symbol about the
Softpot or Dimension Engineering regarding the Kangaroo X2.
It's been almost 2 weeks now. I did send a second
request but nothing back. I'm very disappointed in them
but not really surprised. DE puts out great products but
myself and other people I personally know have found their
customer support spotty and slim. Also, I do have a little
history with Spectra Symbol's customer support. The one
other time I asked for help from them I got a quick
responce. Not this time. It would be nice if these companies
don't know how to help to just send me a reply saying
they don't know. This may not be the case but I'm
left with the impression that they just ignored my request
for assistance.

So, as usual I'm left with the feeling that I
have to figure stuff like this out on my own. However, thank
goodness I'm wrong about that! I've had many fellow
builders jump in and lend a hand with support, ideas and
advice. You guys are wonderful and have helped in more ways
than you know. I really have to mention a certain builder by
the name of Davis H. from Louisiana. He has spent hours
personally studying this issue and more then two full hours
on the phone with me going through the issue step by step.
It doesn't seem enough to say "Thanks
David"!

Anyway David H. has suggested many things that may be
causing this issue of not being able to get the arm motor to
stop at the same point depending on which side of the radius
it's being approached from. I think that the total sum
of this issue is a combination of a few of the problems
David and others have identified. I've been working
through most of these suggestions and have made some real
progress and also eliminated a few things that were not the
issue.

So far the things I've done that have really made
a difference:

Reduce the speed of the arm over all and more so as
it reached the set point. I found this to be the best way to
reach a consistent set point.

Reduce all the deadband values as far as I could
without getting a rocking action as it's trying to stay
at the set point. Using the DeScribe software I found there
are at least 3 deadband settings. Two for position and one
for speed.

After I did some studying on PID adjustments and what
they really are I tried to adjust the Coefficient values in
the PID section. The Autotune filled these in for me but as
I said before I had to redo them to get the motor to respond
smoothly. With better understanding of each setting I was
able to get better resolution of the set point (the point
I'm trying to stop at). I was now able to stop with in a
constant 2 or 3mv on each side of my set point. (I have to
say here that the terms that DE uses for the different Gains
are not the same as the rest of the world uses. They use
terms like Fast and Slow Gain) This makes it even more
difficult for the newbie to understand what needs to be set
and changed).

Even though this resolution may have been enough to
give me the tolerance I need on centering my arm my OCD
kicked in. I thought I can do better then this. So I took
another step David H. suggested and replaced the !0K
resistors on the pos & neg pins between the Softpot and
the Kangaroo X2. This would give me almost the full 5v (4.8
in think) that the Kangaroo is supplying the Softpot and
expecting back to read (feedback) the variance as the arm
moves. With the 10K resistors I was only getting 1.6 volts
around the pot. Well, This change through off all my PID and
limit settings in the Roo. None of my old setting would work
and the arm was unusable.

I had to try to do a new autotune and I was not
looking forward to it. In the past (only on this arm setup)
I was never able to get a successful tune with the arm fully
weighted down. After removing the arm from the robot and
mounting it directly to my workbench I tried a few autotunes
and failed. The software always reported back that it
"couldn't move the system" even thought the
thing was rocking up and down wildly. Obviously the Kangaroo is not able to auto tune
such a heavy asymmetrical load as I have. So I took off the
front claw section (about 4 pounds) and attempted another
Autotune. This time I had a quick and successful tune. When
I tested the tune I had nice smooth action with nice ramping
effect. However when I reattached the 4 pound claw section
the movement sucked.

At least now I had a good baseline tune to work with.
These past two days I've spent about 10 hours resetting
and testing the PID settings for the Roo with the DeScribe
software. Late last night I've finally got the arm
moving smoothly with nice ramping. I think I have the
resolution very close to where I can get this thing stopped
at within one MV of my set point. At least that's what I
can see in the Live Test section of the DeScribe Software.
Today I'll hook this monstrosity up the EZB and see if
all this did any good.

Thanks again to all of yo that has lent a
hand. Thank for nothing DE and SS!

Dave Schulpius









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Herb
Posts: 80
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2012 2:20 pm

Re: B9 Arm centering issue demo

Post by Herb » Sun Jan 17, 2016 7:04 pm

Dave,Not sure about D.E. or Spectra, but most companies are not set up to provide support for hobbyists and one time users. Many do so when times are slow or because the support person feels obliged, but most companies are so short handed they can only support major customers and those with a large profit potential. If your project was a prototype with a hundred thousand part potential, you would more than likely get the support you asked for in a day or two. I've worked as both a design engineer and as a manufacturers rep, and believe me when I tell you it tough just answering emails and supporting a handful of major customers while also trying to do the day to day job of designing or in the case of being a rep. getting engineers to design in your product. Those companies that do have a customer support department are usually there to handle more mundane requests, tech support gets forwarded right to engineering. Herb C. 

Sent from my iPad
On Jan 17, 2016, at 12:05 PM, dschulpius@gmail.com [B9Builders] wrote:














 







Just a short update (I hope). Edit: Nope, it a long one. 

I have not heard back from Spectra Symbol about the Softpot or Dimension Engineering regarding the Kangaroo X2. It's been almost 2 weeks now. I did send a second request but nothing back. I'm very disappointed in them but not really surprised. DE puts out great products but myself and other people I personally know have found their customer support spotty and slim. Also, I do have a little history with Spectra Symbol's customer support. The one other time I asked for help from them I got a quick responce. Not this time. It would be nice if these companies don't know how to help to just send me a reply saying they don't know. This may not be the case but I'm left with the impression that they just ignored my request for assistance. Image Image

So, as usual I'm left with the feeling that I have to figure stuff like this out on my own. However, thank goodness I'm wrong about that! I've had many fellow builders jump in and lend a hand with support, ideas and advice. You guys are wonderful and have helped in more ways than you know. I really have to mention a certain builder by the name of Davis H. from Louisiana. He has spent hours personally studying this issue and more then two full hours on the phone with me going through the issue step by step. It doesn't seem enough to say "Thanks David"! 

Anyway David H. has suggested many things that may be causing this issue of not being able to get the arm motor to stop at the same point depending on which side of the radius it's being approached from. I think that the total sum of this issue is a combination of a few of the problems David and others have identified. I've been working through most of these suggestions and have made some real progress and also eliminated a few things that were not the issue. 

So far the things I've done that have really made a difference:

Reduce the speed of the arm over all and more so as it reached the set point. I found this to be the best way to reach a consistent set point. 

Reduce all the deadband values as far as I could without getting a rocking action as it's trying to stay at the set point. Using the DeScribe software I found there are at least 3 deadband settings. Two for position and one for speed. 

After I did some studying on PID adjustments and what they really are I tried to adjust the Coefficient values in the PID section. The Autotune filled these in for me but as I said before I had to redo them to get the motor to respond smoothly. With better understanding of each setting I was able to get better resolution of the set point (the point I'm trying to stop at). I was now able to stop with in a constant 2 or 3mv on each side of my set point. (I have to say here that the terms that DE uses for the different Gains are not the same as the rest of the world uses. They use terms like Fast and Slow Gain) This makes it even more difficult for the newbie to understand what needs to be set and changed). Image

Even though this resolution may have been enough to give me the tolerance I need on centering my arm my OCD kicked in. I thought I can do better then this. So I took another step David H. suggested and replaced the !0K resistors on the pos & neg pins between the Softpot and the Kangaroo X2. This would give me almost the full 5v (4.8 in think) that the Kangaroo is supplying the Softpot and expecting back to read (feedback) the variance as the arm moves. With the 10K resistors I was only getting 1.6 volts around the pot. Well, This change through off all my PID and limit settings in the Roo. None of my old setting would work and the arm was unusable. 

I had to try to do a new autotune and I was not looking forward to it. In the past (only on this arm setup) I was never able to get a successful tune with the arm fully weighted down. After removing the arm from the robot and mounting it directly to my workbench I tried a few autotunes and failed. The software always reported back that it "couldn't move the system" even thought the thing was rocking up and down wildly. Image Obviously the Kangaroo is not able to auto tune such a heavy asymmetrical load as I have. So I took off the front claw section (about 4 pounds) and attempted another Autotune. This time I had a quick and successful tune. When I tested the tune I had nice smooth action with nice ramping effect. However when I reattached the 4 pound claw section the movement sucked.

At least now I had a good baseline tune to work with. These past two days I've spent about 10 hours resetting and testing the PID settings for the Roo with the DeScribe software. Late last night I've finally got the arm moving smoothly with nice ramping. I think I have the resolution very close to where I can get this thing stopped at within one MV of my set point. At least that's what I can see in the Live Test section of the DeScribe Software. Today I'll hook this monstrosity up the EZB and see if all this did any good. 

Thanks again to all of yo that has lent a hand. Image Thank for nothing DE and SS! Image

Dave Schulpius

David Schulpius
Posts: 1163
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2011 7:57 pm

Re: B9 Arm centering issue demo

Post by David Schulpius » Sun Jan 17, 2016 9:11 pm

I understand all that Herb. I'm not takling about "most" companies. I also understand that DE is a small but growing company. Right on their About page it's stated; "We aim to sell easy to use electronic and electro-mechanical products to the hobbyist, educational and research markets." That tells me that "I'm" their target market. If what you say is the case with DE they shouldn't offer a Help Desk on their website where you can submit Help Tickets and suggest there is customer support available. If I'm on your own with this company then they should have a better FAQ and Knowledge base section. Also a group forum where other owners help each other would go a long way in lessening the demand on their customer support. I've actually chatted with the guy that runs DE and after he asked me personally what could be done to make DE run better I gave him these suggestions. Nothing changed.
Dave Schulpius
On Sun, Jan 17, 2016 at 6:04 PM, Herb hclann@hotmail.com [B9Builders] wrote:

Dave,Not sure about D.E. or Spectra, but most companies are not set up to provide support for hobbyists and one time users. Many do so when times are slow or because the support person feels obliged, but most companies are so short handed they can only support major customers and those with a large profit potential. If your project was a prototype with a hundred thousand part potential, you would more than likely get the support you asked for in a day or two. I've worked as both a design engineer and as a manufacturers rep, and believe me when I tell you it tough just answering emails and supporting a handful of major customers while also trying to do the day to day job of designing or in the case of being a rep. getting engineers to design in your product. Those companies that do have a customer support department are usually there to handle more mundane requests, tech support gets forwarded right to engineering. Herb C.

Sent from my iPad
On Jan 17, 2016, at 12:05 PM, dschulpius@gmail.com [B9Builders] wrote:


Just a short update (I hope). Edit: Nope, it a long one.

I have not heard back from Spectra Symbol about the Softpot or Dimension Engineering regarding the Kangaroo X2. It's been almost 2 weeks now. I did send a second request but nothing back. I'm very disappointed in them but not really surprised. DE puts out great products but myself and other people I personally know have found their customer support spotty and slim. Also, I do have a little history with Spectra Symbol's customer support. The one other time I asked for help from them I got a quick responce. Not this time. It would be nice if these companies don't know how to help to just send me a reply saying they don't know. This may not be the case but I'm left with the impression that they just ignored my request for assistance. Image Image

So, as usual I'm left with the feeling that I have to figure stuff like this out on my own. However, thank goodness I'm wrong about that! I've had many fellow builders jump in and lend a hand with support, ideas and advice. You guys are wonderful and have helped in more ways than you know. I really have to mention a certain builder by the name of Davis H. from Louisiana. He has spent hours personally studying this issue and more then two full hours on the phone with me going through the issue step by step. It doesn't seem enough to say "Thanks David"!

Anyway David H. has suggested many things that may be causing this issue of not being able to get the arm motor to stop at the same point depending on which side of the radius it's being approached from. I think that the total sum of this issue is a combination of a few of the problems David and others have identified. I've been working through most of these suggestions and have made some real progress and also eliminated a few things that were not the issue.

So far the things I've done that have really made a difference:

Reduce the speed of the arm over all and more so as it reached the set point. I found this to be the best way to reach a consistent set point.

Reduce all the deadband values as far as I could without getting a rocking action as it's trying to stay at the set point. Using the DeScribe software I found there are at least 3 deadband settings. Two for position and one for speed.

After I did some studying on PID adjustments and what they really are I tried to adjust the Coefficient values in the PID section. The Autotune filled these in for me but as I said before I had to redo them to get the motor to respond smoothly. With better understanding of each setting I was able to get better resolution of the set point (the point I'm trying to stop at). I was now able to stop with in a constant 2 or 3mv on each side of my set point. (I have to say here that the terms that DE uses for the different Gains are not the same as the rest of the world uses. They use terms like Fast and Slow Gain) This makes it even more difficult for the newbie to understand what needs to be set and changed). Image

Even though this resolution may have been enough to give me the tolerance I need on centering my arm my OCD kicked in. I thought I can do better then this. So I took another step David H. suggested and replaced the !0K resistors on the pos & neg pins between the Softpot and the Kangaroo X2. This would give me almost the full 5v (4.8 in think) that the Kangaroo is supplying the Softpot and expecting back to read (feedback) the variance as the arm moves. With the 10K resistors I was only getting 1.6 volts around the pot. Well, This change through off all my PID and limit settings in the Roo. None of my old setting would work and the arm was unusable.

I had to try to do a new autotune and I was not looking forward to it. In the past (only on this arm setup) I was never able to get a successful tune with the arm fully weighted down. After removing the arm from the robot and mounting it directly to my workbench I tried a few autotunes and failed. The software always reported back that it "couldn't move the system" even thought the thing was rocking up and down wildly. Image Obviously the Kangaroo is not able to auto tune such a heavy asymmetrical load as I have. So I took off the front claw section (about 4 pounds) and attempted another Autotune. This time I had a quick and successful tune. When I tested the tune I had nice smooth action with nice ramping effect. However when I reattached the 4 pound claw section the movement sucked.

At least now I had a good baseline tune to work with. These past two days I've spent about 10 hours resetting and testing the PID settings for the Roo with the DeScribe software. Late last night I've finally got the arm moving smoothly with nice ramping. I think I have the resolution very close to where I can get this thing stopped at within one MV of my set point. At least that's what I can see in the Live Test section of the DeScribe Software. Today I'll hook this monstrosity up the EZB and see if all this did any good.

Thanks again to all of yo that has lent a hand. Image Thank for nothing DE and SS! Image

Dave Schulpius

Herb
Posts: 80
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2012 2:20 pm

Re: B9 Arm centering issue demo

Post by Herb » Mon Jan 18, 2016 9:52 am

Yes I was thinking more about Spectra, D.E. has no excuse as their market is hobbyistHerb


Sent via the Samsung GALAXY S 5, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone

-------- Original message --------
From: "David Schulpius dschulpius@wi.rr.com [B9Builders]"
Date: 01/17/2016 9:11 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: "Tobor001@aol.com [B9Builders]"
Subject: Re: [B9Builders] Re: B9 Arm centering issue demo

 
I understand all that Herb. I'm not takling about "most" companies. I also understand that DE is a small but growing company. Right on their About page it's stated; "We aim to sell easy to use electronic and electro-mechanical products to the hobbyist, educational and research markets."  That tells me that "I'm" their target market. If what you say is the case with DE they shouldn't offer a Help Desk on their website where you can submit Help Tickets and suggest there is customer support available. If I'm on your own with this company then they should have a better FAQ and Knowledge base section. Also a group forum where other owners help each other would go a long way in lessening the demand on their customer support. I've actually chatted with the guy that runs DE and after he asked me personally what could be done to make DE run better I gave him these suggestions. Nothing changed.  
Dave Schulpius
On Sun, Jan 17, 2016 at 6:04 PM, Herb hclann@hotmail.com [B9Builders] wrote:
 
Dave,Not sure about D.E. or Spectra, but most companies are not set up to provide support for hobbyists and one time users. Many do so when times are slow or because the support person feels obliged, but most companies are so short handed they can only support major customers and those with a large profit potential. If your project was a prototype with a hundred thousand part potential, you would more than likely get the support you asked for in a day or two. I've worked as both a design engineer and as a manufacturers rep, and believe me when I tell you it tough just answering emails and supporting a handful of major customers while also trying to do the day to day job of designing or in the case of being a rep. getting engineers to design in your product. Those companies that do have a customer support department are usually there to handle more mundane requests, tech support gets forwarded right to engineering. Herb C. 

Sent from my iPad
On Jan 17, 2016, at 12:05 PM, dschulpius@gmail.com [B9Builders] wrote:

 
Just a short update (I hope). Edit: Nope, it a long one. 

I have not heard back from Spectra Symbol about the Softpot or Dimension Engineering regarding the Kangaroo X2. It's been almost 2 weeks now. I did send a second request but nothing back. I'm very disappointed in them but not really surprised. DE puts out great products but myself and other people I personally know have found their customer support spotty and slim. Also, I do have a little history with Spectra Symbol's customer support. The one other time I asked for help from them I got a quick responce. Not this time. It would be nice if these companies don't know how to help to just send me a reply saying they don't know. This may not be the case but I'm left with the impression that they just ignored my request for assistance. Image Image

So, as usual I'm left with the feeling that I have to figure stuff like this out on my own. However, thank goodness I'm wrong about that! I've had many fellow builders jump in and lend a hand with support, ideas and advice. You guys are wonderful and have helped in more ways than you know. I really have to mention a certain builder by the name of Davis H. from Louisiana. He has spent hours personally studying this issue and more then two full hours on the phone with me going through the issue step by step. It doesn't seem enough to say "Thanks David"! 

Anyway David H. has suggested many things that may be causing this issue of not being able to get the arm motor to stop at the same point depending on which side of the radius it's being approached from. I think that the total sum of this issue is a combination of a few of the problems David and others have identified. I've been working through most of these suggestions and have made some real progress and also eliminated a few things that were not the issue. 

So far the things I've done that have really made a difference:

Reduce the speed of the arm over all and more so as it reached the set point. I found this to be the best way to reach a consistent set point. 

Reduce all the deadband values as far as I could without getting a rocking action as it's trying to stay at the set point. Using the DeScribe software I found there are at least 3 deadband settings. Two for position and one for speed. 

After I did some studying on PID adjustments and what they really are I tried to adjust the Coefficient values in the PID section. The Autotune filled these in for me but as I said before I had to redo them to get the motor to respond smoothly. With better understanding of each setting I was able to get better resolution of the set point (the point I'm trying to stop at). I was now able to stop with in a constant 2 or 3mv on each side of my set point. (I have to say here that the terms that DE uses for the different Gains are not the same as the rest of the world uses. They use terms like Fast and Slow Gain) This makes it even more difficult for the newbie to understand what needs to be set and changed). Image

Even though this resolution may have been enough to give me the tolerance I need on centering my arm my OCD kicked in. I thought I can do better then this. So I took another step David H. suggested and replaced the !0K resistors on the pos & neg pins between the Softpot and the Kangaroo X2. This would give me almost the full 5v (4.8 in think) that the Kangaroo is supplying the Softpot and expecting back to read (feedback) the variance as the arm moves. With the 10K resistors I was only getting 1.6 volts around the pot. Well, This change through off all my PID and limit settings in the Roo. None of my old setting would work and the arm was unusable. 

I had to try to do a new autotune and I was not looking forward to it. In the past (only on this arm setup) I was never able to get a successful tune with the arm fully weighted down. After removing the arm from the robot and mounting it directly to my workbench I tried a few autotunes and failed. The software always reported back that it "couldn't move the system" even thought the thing was rocking up and down wildly. Image Obviously the Kangaroo is not able to auto tune such a heavy asymmetrical load as I have. So I took off the front claw section (about 4 pounds) and attempted another Autotune. This time I had a quick and successful tune. When I tested the tune I had nice smooth action with nice ramping effect. However when I reattached the 4 pound claw section the movement sucked.

At least now I had a good baseline tune to work with. These past two days I've spent about 10 hours resetting and testing the PID settings for the Roo with the DeScribe software. Late last night I've finally got the arm moving smoothly with nice ramping. I think I have the resolution very close to where I can get this thing stopped at within one MV of my set point. At least that's what I can see in the Live Test section of the DeScribe Software. Today I'll hook this monstrosity up the EZB and see if all this did any good. 

Thanks again to all of yo that has lent a hand. Image Thank for nothing DE and SS! Image

Dave Schulpius

David Schulpius
Posts: 1163
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2011 7:57 pm

Re: B9 Arm centering issue demo

Post by David Schulpius » Mon Jan 18, 2016 10:39 am

Herb, after rereading my last post I think it sounded pretty abrasive. Sorry, I didn't mean it like that. I do agree that I shouldn't have the same CS expectations from Spectra. They do supply on a more industrial level. However, they do offer the option of custom made components. From the website it appears that the best way to get help is to call their phone number. At least that's the way they seem to lead you to support. Thanks for the insight. Dave Schulpius
On Jan 18, 2016 8:52 AM, "Herb hclann@hotmail.com [B9Builders]" wrote:

Yes I was thinking more about Spectra, D.E. has no excuse as their market is hobbyistHerb


Sent via the Samsung GALAXY S 5, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone

-------- Original message --------
From: "David Schulpius dschulpius@wi.rr.com [B9Builders]"
Date: 01/17/2016 9:11 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: "Tobor001@aol.com [B9Builders]"
Subject: Re: [B9Builders] Re: B9 Arm centering issue demo

I understand all that Herb. I'm not takling about "most" companies. I also understand that DE is a small but growing company. Right on their About page it's stated; "We aim to sell easy to use electronic and electro-mechanical products to the hobbyist, educational and research markets." That tells me that "I'm" their target market. If what you say is the case with DE they shouldn't offer a Help Desk on their website where you can submit Help Tickets and suggest there is customer support available. If I'm on your own with this company then they should have a better FAQ and Knowledge base section. Also a group forum where other owners help each other would go a long way in lessening the demand on their customer support. I've actually chatted with the guy that runs DE and after he asked me personally what could be done to make DE run better I gave him these suggestions. Nothing changed.
Dave Schulpius
On Sun, Jan 17, 2016 at 6:04 PM, Herb hclann@hotmail.com [B9Builders] wrote:

Dave,Not sure about D.E. or Spectra, but most companies are not set up to provide support for hobbyists and one time users. Many do so when times are slow or because the support person feels obliged, but most companies are so short handed they can only support major customers and those with a large profit potential. If your project was a prototype with a hundred thousand part potential, you would more than likely get the support you asked for in a day or two. I've worked as both a design engineer and as a manufacturers rep, and believe me when I tell you it tough just answering emails and supporting a handful of major customers while also trying to do the day to day job of designing or in the case of being a rep. getting engineers to design in your product. Those companies that do have a customer support department are usually there to handle more mundane requests, tech support gets forwarded right to engineering. Herb C.

Sent from my iPad
On Jan 17, 2016, at 12:05 PM, dschulpius@gmail.com [B9Builders] wrote:


Just a short update (I hope). Edit: Nope, it a long one.

I have not heard back from Spectra Symbol about the Softpot or Dimension Engineering regarding the Kangaroo X2. It's been almost 2 weeks now. I did send a second request but nothing back. I'm very disappointed in them but not really surprised. DE puts out great products but myself and other people I personally know have found their customer support spotty and slim. Also, I do have a little history with Spectra Symbol's customer support. The one other time I asked for help from them I got a quick responce. Not this time. It would be nice if these companies don't know how to help to just send me a reply saying they don't know. This may not be the case but I'm left with the impression that they just ignored my request for assistance. Image Image

So, as usual I'm left with the feeling that I have to figure stuff like this out on my own. However, thank goodness I'm wrong about that! I've had many fellow builders jump in and lend a hand with support, ideas and advice. You guys are wonderful and have helped in more ways than you know. I really have to mention a certain builder by the name of Davis H. from Louisiana. He has spent hours personally studying this issue and more then two full hours on the phone with me going through the issue step by step. It doesn't seem enough to say "Thanks David"!

Anyway David H. has suggested many things that may be causing this issue of not being able to get the arm motor to stop at the same point depending on which side of the radius it's being approached from. I think that the total sum of this issue is a combination of a few of the problems David and others have identified. I've been working through most of these suggestions and have made some real progress and also eliminated a few things that were not the issue.

So far the things I've done that have really made a difference:

Reduce the speed of the arm over all and more so as it reached the set point. I found this to be the best way to reach a consistent set point.

Reduce all the deadband values as far as I could without getting a rocking action as it's trying to stay at the set point. Using the DeScribe software I found there are at least 3 deadband settings. Two for position and one for speed.

After I did some studying on PID adjustments and what they really are I tried to adjust the Coefficient values in the PID section. The Autotune filled these in for me but as I said before I had to redo them to get the motor to respond smoothly. With better understanding of each setting I was able to get better resolution of the set point (the point I'm trying to stop at). I was now able to stop with in a constant 2 or 3mv on each side of my set point. (I have to say here that the terms that DE uses for the different Gains are not the same as the rest of the world uses. They use terms like Fast and Slow Gain) This makes it even more difficult for the newbie to understand what needs to be set and changed). Image

Even though this resolution may have been enough to give me the tolerance I need on centering my arm my OCD kicked in. I thought I can do better then this. So I took another step David H. suggested and replaced the !0K resistors on the pos & neg pins between the Softpot and the Kangaroo X2. This would give me almost the full 5v (4.8 in think) that the Kangaroo is supplying the Softpot and expecting back to read (feedback) the variance as the arm moves. With the 10K resistors I was only getting 1.6 volts around the pot. Well, This change through off all my PID and limit settings in the Roo. None of my old setting would work and the arm was unusable.

I had to try to do a new autotune and I was not looking forward to it. In the past (only on this arm setup) I was never able to get a successful tune with the arm fully weighted down. After removing the arm from the robot and mounting it directly to my workbench I tried a few autotunes and failed. The software always reported back that it "couldn't move the system" even thought the thing was rocking up and down wildly. Image Obviously the Kangaroo is not able to auto tune such a heavy asymmetrical load as I have. So I took off the front claw section (about 4 pounds) and attempted another Autotune. This time I had a quick and successful tune. When I tested the tune I had nice smooth action with nice ramping effect. However when I reattached the 4 pound claw section the movement sucked.

At least now I had a good baseline tune to work with. These past two days I've spent about 10 hours resetting and testing the PID settings for the Roo with the DeScribe software. Late last night I've finally got the arm moving smoothly with nice ramping. I think I have the resolution very close to where I can get this thing stopped at within one MV of my set point. At least that's what I can see in the Live Test section of the DeScribe Software. Today I'll hook this monstrosity up the EZB and see if all this did any good.

Thanks again to all of yo that has lent a hand. Image Thank for nothing DE and SS! Image

Dave Schulpius

David Schulpius
Posts: 1163
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2011 7:57 pm

Re: B9 Arm centering issue demo

Post by David Schulpius » Mon Jan 18, 2016 1:53 pm

Autotune was a failure because the Kangaroo can't figure out the 4 pound heavy load I have out on the end of the 2 foot arm. Once I removed the claw section it tuned just fine. However it was set up for the lighter load. I did give me a good base line to work with after I reattached the 4 pound claw. Man, setting up a properly tuned PID is a pain but I have it real close now. Maybe a little tweaking yet if I run out of things to do. :D I attached the ezb last night and battle tested stopping at my set point from each direction. I'm going to call this issue RESOLVED! It's stopping either dead on or within 1mv of the set point. :P I couldn't be more happy, thankful and excited. Here's a youtube video I took last night of the results of the final testing. Enjoy :
http://youtu.be/G5qhSu42XlM Herb, after rereading my last post I think it sounded pretty abrasive. Sorry, I didn't mean it like that. I do agree that I shouldn't have the same CS expectations from Spectra. They do supply on a more industrial level. However, they do offer the option of custom made components. From the website it appears that the best way to get help is to call their phone number. At least that's the way they seem to lead you to support. Thanks for the insight. Dave Schulpius
On Jan 18, 2016 8:52 AM, "Herb hclann@hotmail.com [B9Builders]" wrote:

Yes I was thinking more about Spectra, D.E. has no excuse as their market is hobbyistHerb


Sent via the Samsung GALAXY S 5, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone

-------- Original message --------
From: "David Schulpius dschulpius@wi.rr.com [B9Builders]"
Date: 01/17/2016 9:11 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: "Tobor001@aol.com [B9Builders]"
Subject: Re: [B9Builders] Re: B9 Arm centering issue demo

I understand all that Herb. I'm not takling about "most" companies. I also understand that DE is a small but growing company. Right on their About page it's stated; "We aim to sell easy to use electronic and electro-mechanical products to the hobbyist, educational and research markets." That tells me that "I'm" their target market. If what you say is the case with DE they shouldn't offer a Help Desk on their website where you can submit Help Tickets and suggest there is customer support available. If I'm on your own with this company then they should have a better FAQ and Knowledge base section. Also a group forum where other owners help each other would go a long way in lessening the demand on their customer support. I've actually chatted with the guy that runs DE and after he asked me personally what could be done to make DE run better I gave him these suggestions. Nothing changed.
Dave Schulpius
On Sun, Jan 17, 2016 at 6:04 PM, Herb hclann@hotmail.com [B9Builders] wrote:

Dave,Not sure about D.E. or Spectra, but most companies are not set up to provide support for hobbyists and one time users. Many do so when times are slow or because the support person feels obliged, but most companies are so short handed they can only support major customers and those with a large profit potential. If your project was a prototype with a hundred thousand part potential, you would more than likely get the support you asked for in a day or two. I've worked as both a design engineer and as a manufacturers rep, and believe me when I tell you it tough just answering emails and supporting a handful of major customers while also trying to do the day to day job of designing or in the case of being a rep. getting engineers to design in your product. Those companies that do have a customer support department are usually there to handle more mundane requests, tech support gets forwarded right to engineering. Herb C.

Sent from my iPad
On Jan 17, 2016, at 12:05 PM, dschulpius@gmail.com [B9Builders] wrote:


Just a short update (I hope). Edit: Nope, it a long one.

I have not heard back from Spectra Symbol about the Softpot or Dimension Engineering regarding the Kangaroo X2. It's been almost 2 weeks now. I did send a second request but nothing back. I'm very disappointed in them but not really surprised. DE puts out great products but myself and other people I personally know have found their customer support spotty and slim. Also, I do have a little history with Spectra Symbol's customer support. The one other time I asked for help from them I got a quick responce. Not this time. It would be nice if these companies don't know how to help to just send me a reply saying they don't know. This may not be the case but I'm left with the impression that they just ignored my request for assistance. Image Image

So, as usual I'm left with the feeling that I have to figure stuff like this out on my own. However, thank goodness I'm wrong about that! I've had many fellow builders jump in and lend a hand with support, ideas and advice. You guys are wonderful and have helped in more ways than you know. I really have to mention a certain builder by the name of Davis H. from Louisiana. He has spent hours personally studying this issue and more then two full hours on the phone with me going through the issue step by step. It doesn't seem enough to say "Thanks David"!

Anyway David H. has suggested many things that may be causing this issue of not being able to get the arm motor to stop at the same point depending on which side of the radius it's being approached from. I think that the total sum of this issue is a combination of a few of the problems David and others have identified. I've been working through most of these suggestions and have made some real progress and also eliminated a few things that were not the issue.

So far the things I've done that have really made a difference:

Reduce the speed of the arm over all and more so as it reached the set point. I found this to be the best way to reach a consistent set point.

Reduce all the deadband values as far as I could without getting a rocking action as it's trying to stay at the set point. Using the DeScribe software I found there are at least 3 deadband settings. Two for position and one for speed.

After I did some studying on PID adjustments and what they really are I tried to adjust the Coefficient values in the PID section. The Autotune filled these in for me but as I said before I had to redo them to get the motor to respond smoothly. With better understanding of each setting I was able to get better resolution of the set point (the point I'm trying to stop at). I was now able to stop with in a constant 2 or 3mv on each side of my set point. (I have to say here that the terms that DE uses for the different Gains are not the same as the rest of the world uses. They use terms like Fast and Slow Gain) This makes it even more difficult for the newbie to understand what needs to be set and changed). Image

Even though this resolution may have been enough to give me the tolerance I need on centering my arm my OCD kicked in. I thought I can do better then this. So I took another step David H. suggested and replaced the !0K resistors on the pos & neg pins between the Softpot and the Kangaroo X2. This would give me almost the full 5v (4.8 in think) that the Kangaroo is supplying the Softpot and expecting back to read (feedback) the variance as the arm moves. With the 10K resistors I was only getting 1.6 volts around the pot. Well, This change through off all my PID and limit settings in the Roo. None of my old setting would work and the arm was unusable.

I had to try to do a new autotune and I was not looking forward to it. In the past (only on this arm setup) I was never able to get a successful tune with the arm fully weighted down. After removing the arm from the robot and mounting it directly to my workbench I tried a few autotunes and failed. The software always reported back that it "couldn't move the system" even thought the thing was rocking up and down wildly. Image Obviously the Kangaroo is not able to auto tune such a heavy asymmetrical load as I have. So I took off the front claw section (about 4 pounds) and attempted another Autotune. This time I had a quick and successful tune. When I tested the tune I had nice smooth action with nice ramping effect. However when I reattached the 4 pound claw section the movement sucked.

At least now I had a good baseline tune to work with. These past two days I've spent about 10 hours resetting and testing the PID settings for the Roo with the DeScribe software. Late last night I've finally got the arm moving smoothly with nice ramping. I think I have the resolution very close to where I can get this thing stopped at within one MV of my set point. At least that's what I can see in the Live Test section of the DeScribe Software. Today I'll hook this monstrosity up the EZB and see if all this did any good.

Thanks again to all of yo that has lent a hand. Image Thank for nothing DE and SS! Image

Dave Schulpius

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