Re: Drop arms

Steve S
Posts: 107
Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2005 2:56 pm

Re: Drop arms

Post by Steve S » Mon Aug 14, 2017 11:17 am

I don't have the original spindles, nor the original drop arm. But to answer your question, no I wouldn't trust 70 year old parts with an unknown history, that are known to break. Not sure how my feelings are relevant to the topic but there it is. It was Bill's comment about "aftermarket critical parts with unknown QC issues" that you responded to originally. - Steve Simmons, TC8975 On 8/14/2017 10:36 AM, Stephen D Stierman morgan7709@sbcglobal.net [mg-tabc] wrote:
So you feel confident in those original drop arms and front spindles? You do remember a previous member selling VW steering conversions advising us how much better the VDub drop arms were than the OEM item on a regular basis? I still have all that original stuff on my car out of choice, but I have to say I really would feel safer using current VW items given the current manufacturing technology no matter where they were made if I decided to go in that direction. Steve TC2911 [b]From:[/b] "Steve S mail@mgnuts.com [mg-tabc]" mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com [b]To:[/b] mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [b]Sent:[/b] Monday, August 14, 2017 1:15 PM [b]Subject:[/b] Re: [mg-tabc] Drop arms. ( Sorry if this appears more than once) All fair points, but I think the issue is with parts that could kill you if they failed. A broken axle is a minor inconvenience, but a broken steering component can kill you and whoever you consequently run into. I don't think anyone is in this hobby thinking that it's ok if it kills them! We take a risk by driving a car with no modern safety equipment in place, but I think it's reasonable to expect that the steering system will remain in one piece. If I drive myself off a cliff then ok, but I'd rather it be my mistake than a failed steering arm! - Steve Simmons, TC8975 On 8/14/2017 9:57 AM, Stephen D Stierman morgan7709@sbcglobal.net [mg-tabc] wrote: Safety?! Give me a break here. It is a 70 year old car made of wood with a steel tube pointed at the drivers chest and a fuel tank as a rear bumper. Lighting barely visible after dark, a chassis known to develop stress cracks, rear axles known to break, front spindles that crack and a crank shaft that sometimes breaks across a counter weight. Made of materials scrounged after a war built with technology from well before. I am sorry I just cannot worry too much about the quality and traceability in manufacturing from raw material to end product. We are lucky we can still get parts and keep these old crocks on the road for awhile longer. By simply driving these vehicles you are assuming a great deal of risk and if this is a big problem, maybe time to choose a different hobby. Steve TC2911, driving a car as old as I am. [b]From:[/b] %27Usaj24@earthlink.net%27usaj24@earthlink.net[mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com [b]To:[/b] Tweed lizandtweed@yahoo.co.uk [b]Cc:[/b] mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [b]Sent:[/b] Monday, August 14, 2017 9:27 AM [b]Subject:[/b] Re: [mg-tabc] Drop arms. ( Sorry if this appears more than once) Tweed, No worries, there can never be enough discussion about how or why things break, and preventive measures. Personally I tend to worry more about fitting aftermarket critical parts with unknown QC issues. However this line of thinking should be more relevant today when NOS OEM critical parts are becoming unobtanium, and who knows where today's parts are sourced and what level of QC they went through from A to Z. Those touting VALUE of items like OEM VW steering components should be be promoting advantages they offer in the way of safety in the way of high levels of OEM QC (Quality Control) and traceability in mfg. process from raw material to end product. Too many vintage critical parts are sourced from suppliers in third world countries based on cost, not degree of quality testing provided throughout mfg. supply chain. Bill TC 4926 Sent from my iPad On Aug 13, 2017, at 9:24 PM, Tweed lizandtweed@yahoo.co.uk [mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> wrote: I hope this does not kick off another debate on the merits or otherwise of the VW box over the BC, but after reading a very interesting article by a Mike James in John James' 'Totally T type' on aftermarket drop arms , I'm curious. I'm in the process of replacing the busted VW steering box in 0632 and the drop or Pitman arm supplied with the replacement is totally different to the one on the old unit. Both units are made by TWR, but the old drop arm is a VW original. Not only is it shorter, but it does not have the same amount of 'offset'. Also, the tapered hole to accept the rod end is the other way up ... on the 'old' one, the rod end is mounted on the top and secured from below. Pro! bably the biggest argument against changing from a BC box is the increased number of turns lock to lock, so having a shorter arm can only exasperate that. While the use of a longer arm won't reduce the number of turns, it would make for less movement of the wheel to achieve the same amount of lock at the hub .... so in effect, making for a slightly 'quicker' box. Or am I talking out of the top of my head? Tweed.

Stephen D Stierman
Posts: 63
Joined: Fri Dec 26, 2003 5:04 am

Re: Drop arms

Post by Stephen D Stierman » Mon Aug 14, 2017 12:47 pm

 I think my point is that I would really feel more comfortable with aftermarket critical parts made today given current production techniques even if I don't know where they are made, than I do with the original stuff, given the technology. Steve TC2911 [b]From:[/b] "Steve S mail@mgnuts.com [mg-tabc]" mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> [b]To:[/b] "mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com" mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com> [b]Sent:[/b] Monday, August 14, 2017 2:17 PM [b]Subject:[/b] Re: [mg-tabc] Drop arms   I don't have the original spindles, nor the original drop arm.  But to answer your question, no I wouldn't trust 70 year old parts with an unknown history, that are known to break.  Not sure how my feelings are relevant to the topic but there it is. It was Bill's comment about "aftermarket critical parts with unknown QC issues" that you responded to originally. - Steve Simmons, TC8975 On 8/14/2017 10:36 AM, Stephen D Stierman morgan7709@sbcglobal.net [mg-tabc] wrote:
  So you feel confident in those original drop arms and front spindles? You do remember a previous member selling VW steering conversions advising us how much better the VDub drop arms were than the OEM item on a regular basis?  I still have all that original stuff on my car out of choice, but I have to say I really would feel safer using current VW items given the current manufacturing technology no matter where they were made if I decided to go in that direction. Steve TC2911 [b]From:[/b] "Steve S mail@mgnuts.com [mg-tabc]" mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com [b]To:[/b] mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [b]Sent:[/b] Monday, August 14, 2017 1:15 PM [b]Subject:[/b] Re: [mg-tabc] Drop arms. ( Sorry if this appears more than once)   All fair points, but I think the issue is with parts that could kill you if they failed.  A broken axle is a minor inconvenience, but a broken steering component can kill you and whoever you consequently run into.  I don't think anyone is in this hobby thinking that it's ok if it kills them!  We take a risk by driving a car with no modern safety equipment in place, but I think it's reasonable to expect that the steering system will remain in one piece.  If I drive myself off a cliff then ok, but I'd rather it be my mistake than a failed steering arm! - Steve Simmons, TC8975 On 8/14/2017 9:57 AM, Stephen D Stierman morgan7709@sbcglobal.net [mg-tabc] wrote:   Safety?! Give me a break here.  It is a 70 year old car made of wood with a steel tube pointed at the drivers chest and a fuel tank as a rear bumper.  Lighting barely visible after dark, a chassis known to develop stress cracks, rear axles known to break, front spindles that crack and a crank shaft that sometimes breaks across a counter weight.  Made of materials scrounged after a war built with technology from well before. I am sorry I just cannot worry too much about the quality and traceability in manufacturing from raw material to end product.  We are lucky we can still get parts and keep these old crocks on the road for awhile longer.  By simply driving these  vehicles you are assuming a great deal of risk and if this is a big problem, maybe time to choose a different hobby. Steve TC2911, driving a car as old as I am. [b]From:[/b] %27Usaj24@earthlink.net%27usaj24@earthlink.net[mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com [b]To:[/b] Tweed lizandtweed@yahoo.co.uk [b]Cc:[/b] mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [b]Sent:[/b] Monday, August 14, 2017 9:27 AM [b]Subject:[/b] Re: [mg-tabc] Drop arms. ( Sorry if this appears more than once)   Tweed, No worries, there can never be enough discussion about how or why things break, and preventive measures.   Personally I tend to worry more about fitting aftermarket critical parts with unknown QC issues. However this line of thinking should be more relevant today when NOS OEM  critical parts are becoming unobtanium, and who knows where today's parts are sourced and what level of QC they went through from A to Z. Those touting VALUE of items like OEM VW steering components  should be be promoting advantages they offer in the way of safety in the way of high levels of OEM QC (Quality  Control) and traceability in mfg. process from raw material to end product. Too many vintage critical parts are sourced from suppliers in third world countries based on cost, not degree of quality testing provided throughout mfg. supply chain. Bill TC 4926 Sent from my iPad On Aug 13, 2017, at 9:24 PM, Tweed lizandtweed@yahoo.co.uk [mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:   I hope this does not kick off another debate on the merits or otherwise of the VW box over the BC, but after reading a very interesting article by a Mike James in John James' 'Totally T type' on aftermarket drop arms , I'm curious.      I'm in the process of replacing the busted VW steering box in 0632 and the drop or Pitman arm supplied with the  replacement is totally different to the one on the old unit. Both units are made by TWR, but the old drop arm is a VW original.     Not only is it shorter, but it does not have the same amount of 'offset'.  Also, the tapered hole to accept the rod end is  the other way up ... on the 'old' one, the rod end is mounted on the top and secured from below.    Pro! bably the biggest argument against changing from a BC box is the increased number of turns lock to lock, so having a shorter arm can only exasperate that.    While the use of a longer arm won't reduce the number of turns, it would make for less movement of the wheel to achieve the same amount of lock at the hub  .... so in effect, making for a slightly 'quicker' box.   Or am I talking out of the top of my head?  Tweed.    
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Bill Hyatt
Posts: 78
Joined: Tue Nov 23, 2010 6:23 am

Re: Drop arms

Post by Bill Hyatt » Mon Aug 14, 2017 1:16 pm

Steve,

Using aftermarket replacement critical parts not equal or exceeding OEM design specs [b]can [/b]lead to doom & destruction.

On the MG- TABC site, a case was recounted where aftermarket main bearing cap studs were obtained from a well known UK MG XPAG supplier & on start up a cap stud fractured & the broken stud and nut bolt ricocheted around sump after being hit by crankshaft destroying inside of engine. An analysis of stud determined they were hardened to V grade, made from inferior bar stock with low levels of nickel & chrome needed to reduce brittleness

In high carbon alloys. It also had high levels of sulpher & obvious inclusions suggesting impure stock. Obviously there was no quality control inspection on part of mfgr. or reseller of end product. . I would postulate that relying on feedback from end user for QC is bad practice with no assurance as to what materials mfgr uses, or how he makes the product. Undoubtedly from a third world country where low cost trumps QC. Quality does have a cost. Know your suppliers!

 

 

-Bill

 

[b]From:[/b] mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com] [b]On Behalf Of [/b]Stephen D Stierman morgan7709@sbcglobal.net [mg-tabc] [b]Sent:[/b] Monday, August 14, 2017 3:43 PM [b]To:[/b] Steve S; mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [b]Subject:[/b] Re: [mg-tabc] Drop arms

 

 

 I think my point is that I would really feel more comfortable with aftermarket critical parts made today given current production techniques even if I don't know where they are made, than I do with the original stuff, given the technology.

Steve TC2911

 

[b]From:[/b] "Steve S mail@mgnuts.com [mg-tabc]" mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> [b]To:[/b] "mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com" mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com> [b]Sent:[/b] Monday, August 14, 2017 2:17 PM [b]Subject:[/b] Re: [mg-tabc] Drop arms

 

 

I don't have the original spindles, nor the original drop arm.  But to answer your question, no I wouldn't trust 70 year old parts with an unknown history, that are known to break.  Not sure how my feelings are relevant to the topic but there it is.

It was Bill's comment about "aftermarket critical parts with unknown QC issues" that you responded to originally.

- Steve Simmons, TC8975

 

On 8/14/2017 10:36 AM, Stephen D Stierman morgan7709@sbcglobal.net [mg-tabc] wrote:

 

So you feel confident in those original drop arms and front spindles?

You do remember a previous member selling VW steering conversions advising us how much better the VDub drop arms were than the OEM item on a regular basis?  I still have all that original stuff on my car out of choice, but I have to say I really would feel safer using current VW items given the current manufacturing technology no matter where they were made if I decided to go in that direction.

Steve TC2911

[b]From:[/b] "Steve S mail@mgnuts.com [mg-tabc]" mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com [b]To:[/b] mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [b]Sent:[/b] Monday, August 14, 2017 1:15 PM [b]Subject:[/b] Re: [mg-tabc] Drop arms. ( Sorry if this appears more than once)

 

 

All fair points, but I think the issue is with parts that could kill you if they failed.  A broken axle is a minor inconvenience, but a broken steering component can kill you and whoever you consequently run into.  I don't think anyone is in this hobby thinking that it's ok if it kills them!  We take a risk by driving a car with no modern safety equipment in place, but I think it's reasonable to expect that the steering system will remain in one piece.  If I drive myself off a cliff then ok, but I'd rather it be my mistake than a failed steering arm!

- Steve Simmons, TC8975

 

On 8/14/2017 9:57 AM, Stephen D Stierman morgan7709@sbcglobal.net [mg-tabc] wrote:

 

Safety?! Give me a break here.  It is a 70 year old car made of wood with a steel tube pointed at the drivers chest and a fuel tank as a rear bumper.  Lighting barely visible after dark, a chassis known to develop stress cracks, rear axles known to break, front spindles that crack and a crank shaft that sometimes breaks across a counter weight.  Made of materials scrounged after a war built with technology from well before.

I am sorry I just cannot worry too much about the quality and traceability in manufacturing from raw material to end product.  We are lucky we can still get parts and keep these old crocks on the road for awhile longer.  By simply driving these  vehicles you are assuming a great deal of risk and if this is a big problem, maybe time to choose a different hobby.

 

Steve TC2911, driving a car as old as I am.

[b]From:[/b] %27Usaj24@earthlink.net%27usaj24@earthlink.net[mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com [b]To:[/b] Tweed lizandtweed@yahoo.co.uk [b]Cc:[/b] mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [b]Sent:[/b] Monday, August 14, 2017 9:27 AM [b]Subject:[/b] Re: [mg-tabc] Drop arms. ( Sorry if this appears more than once)

 

 

Tweed,

No worries, there can never be enough discussion about how or why things break, and preventive measures.  

Personally I tend to worry more about fitting aftermarket critical parts with unknown QC issues. However this line of thinking should be more relevant today when NOS OEM  critical parts are becoming unobtanium, and who knows where today's parts are sourced and what level of QC they went through from A to Z.

Those touting VALUE of items like OEM VW steering components  should be be promoting advantages they offer in the way of safety in the way of high levels of OEM QC (Quality  Control) and traceability in mfg. process from raw material to end product.

Too many vintage critical parts are sourced from suppliers in third world countries based on cost, not degree of quality testing provided throughout mfg. supply chain.

 

Bill

TC 4926

 

Sent from my iPad

On Aug 13, 2017, at 9:24 PM, Tweed lizandtweed@yahoo.co.uk [mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

I hope this does not kick off another debate on the merits or otherwise of the VW box over the BC, but after reading a very interesting article by a Mike James in John James' 'Totally T type' on aftermarket drop arms , I'm curious.     

 

I'm in the process of replacing the busted VW steering box in 0632 and the drop or Pitman arm supplied with the 

replacement is totally different to the one on the old unit. Both units are made by TWR, but the old drop arm is a VW original. 

  

Not only is it shorter, but it does not have the same amount of 'offset'.  Also, the tapered hole to accept the rod end is  the other way up ... on the 'old' one, the rod end is mounted on the top and secured from below. 

 

Pro! bably the biggest argument against changing from a BC box is the increased number of turns lock to lock, so having a shorter arm can only exasperate that.   

While the use of a longer arm won't reduce the number of turns, it would make for less movement of the wheel to achieve the same amount of lock at the hub  .... so in effect, making for a slightly 'quicker' box.  

 

Or am I talking out of the top of my head? 

 

Tweed. 

 

  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


Stephen D Stierman
Posts: 63
Joined: Fri Dec 26, 2003 5:04 am

Re: Drop arms

Post by Stephen D Stierman » Mon Aug 14, 2017 2:35 pm

I do know my suppliers; Moss, FTFU, Coker, etc. etc. , folks most of us use. I do not know their suppliers nor do  I have the ability as I think you advocate to know   "OEM QC (Quality  Control) and traceability in mfg. process from raw material to end product".  Not picking nits here, but it is doubtful our suppliers know this about every screw, nut, bolt, spring washer in their catalogs. Sometimes sh!t happens and we all do the best we can to prevent it including the suppliers but lets get real, nobody is going to guarantee perfection on any of this stuff.  Why would a supplier guarantee the use and installation of a VW steering box modified by an individual that is to be installed in a vehicle that it was not meant to be installed in. Steve TC2911 [b]From:[/b] Bill Hyatt usaj24@earthlink.net> To: 'Stephen D Stierman' morgan7709@sbcglobal.net>; 'TABC-Group' mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com> [b]Sent:[/b] Monday, August 14, 2017 4:16 PM [b]Subject:[/b] RE: [mg-tabc] Drop arms #ygrps-yiv-1161810281 #ygrps-yiv-1161810281yiv1970368602 #ygrps-yiv-1161810281yiv1970368602 -- filtered #ygrps-yiv-1161810281yiv1970368602 {font-family:Helvetica;panose-1:2 11 6 4 2 2 2 2 2 4;} #ygrps-yiv-1161810281 filtered #ygrps-yiv-1161810281yiv1970368602 {font-family:Wingdings;panose-1:5 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1161810281 filtered #ygrps-yiv-1161810281yiv1970368602 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} #ygrps-yiv-1161810281 filtered #ygrps-yiv-1161810281yiv1970368602 {font-family:Cambria;panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} #ygrps-yiv-1161810281 filtered #ygrps-yiv-1161810281yiv1970368602 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} #ygrps-yiv-1161810281 filtered #ygrps-yiv-1161810281yiv1970368602 {font-family:Tahoma;panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;} 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#ygrps-yiv-1161810281 Steve,Using aftermarket replacement critical parts not equal or exceeding OEM design specs [b]can [/b]lead to doom & destruction.On the MG- TABC site, a case was recounted where aftermarket main bearing cap studs were obtained from a well known UK MG XPAG supplier & on start up a cap stud fractured & the broken stud and nut bolt ricocheted around sump after being hit by crankshaft destroying inside of engine. An analysis of stud determined they were hardened to V grade, made from inferior bar stock with low levels of nickel & chrome needed to reduce brittlenessIn high carbon alloys. It also had high levels of sulpher & obvious inclusions suggesting impure stock. Obviously there was no quality control inspection on part of mfgr. or reseller of end product. . I would postulate that relying on feedback from end user for QC is bad practice with no assurance as to what materials mfgr uses, or how he makes the product. Undoubtedly from a third world country where low cost trumps QC. Quality does have a cost. Know your suppliers!    -Bill  [b]From:[/b] mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com] [b]On Behalf Of [/b]Stephen D Stierman morgan7709@sbcglobal.net [mg-tabc] [b]Sent:[/b] Monday, August 14, 2017 3:43 PM [b]To:[/b] Steve S; mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [b]Subject:[/b] Re: [mg-tabc] Drop arms     I think my point is that I would really feel more comfortable with aftermarket critical parts made today given current production techniques even if I don't know where they are made, than I do with the original stuff, given the technology. Steve TC2911  [b]From:[/b] "Steve S mail@mgnuts.com [mg-tabc]" mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> [b]To:[/b] "mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com" mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com> [b]Sent:[/b] Monday, August 14, 2017 2:17 PM [b]Subject:[/b] Re: [mg-tabc] Drop arms    I don't have the original spindles, nor the original drop arm.  But to answer your question, no I wouldn't trust 70 year old parts with an unknown history, that are known to break.  Not sure how my feelings are relevant to the topic but there it is.It was Bill's comment about "aftermarket critical parts with unknown QC issues" that you responded to originally.- Steve Simmons, TC8975  On 8/14/2017 10:36 AM, Stephen D Stierman morgan7709@sbcglobal.net [mg-tabc] wrote:
  So you feel confident in those original drop arms and front spindles?You do remember a previous member selling VW steering conversions advising us how much better the VDub drop arms were than the OEM item on a regular basis?  I still have all that original stuff on my car out of choice, but I have to say I really would feel safer using current VW items given the current manufacturing technology no matter where they were made if I decided to go in that direction.Steve TC2911[b]From:[/b] "Steve S mail@mgnuts.com [mg-tabc]" mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com [b]To:[/b] mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [b]Sent:[/b] Monday, August 14, 2017 1:15 PM [b]Subject:[/b] Re: [mg-tabc] Drop arms. ( Sorry if this appears more than once)    All fair points, but I think the issue is with parts that could kill you if they failed.  A broken axle is a minor inconvenience, but a broken steering component can kill you and whoever you consequently run into.  I don't think anyone is in this hobby thinking that it's ok if it kills them!  We take a risk by driving a car with no modern safety equipment in place, but I think it's reasonable to expect that the steering system will remain in one piece.  If I drive myself off a cliff then ok, but I'd rather it be my mistake than a failed steering arm!- Steve Simmons, TC8975  On 8/14/2017 9:57 AM, Stephen D Stierman morgan7709@sbcglobal.net [mg-tabc] wrote:  Safety?! Give me a break here.  It is a 70 year old car made of wood with a steel tube pointed at the drivers chest and a fuel tank as a rear bumper.  Lighting barely visible after dark, a chassis known to develop stress cracks, rear axles known to break, front spindles that crack and a crank shaft that sometimes breaks across a counter weight.  Made of materials scrounged after a war built with technology from well before.I am sorry I just cannot worry too much about the quality and traceability in manufacturing from raw material to end product.  We are lucky we can still get parts and keep these old crocks on the road for awhile longer.  By simply driving these  vehicles you are assuming a great deal of risk and if this is a big problem, maybe time to choose a different hobby.  Steve TC2911, driving a car as old as I am.[b]From:[/b] %27Usaj24@earthlink.net%27usaj24@earthlink.net[mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com [b]To:[/b] Tweed lizandtweed@yahoo.co.uk [b]Cc:[/b] mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [b]Sent:[/b] Monday, August 14, 2017 9:27 AM [b]Subject:[/b] Re: [mg-tabc] Drop arms. ( Sorry if this appears more than once)    Tweed,No worries, there can never be enough discussion about how or why things break, and preventive measures.  Personally I tend to worry more about fitting aftermarket critical parts with unknown QC issues. However this line of thinking should be more relevant today when NOS OEM  critical parts are becoming unobtanium, and who knows where today's parts are sourced and what level of QC they went through from A to Z.Those touting VALUE of items like OEM VW steering components  should be be promoting advantages they offer in the way of safety in the way of high levels of OEM QC (Quality  Control) and traceability in mfg. process from raw material to end product.Too many vintage critical parts are sourced from suppliers in third world countries based on cost, not degree of quality testing provided throughout mfg. supply chain.  BillTC 4926  Sent from my iPad On Aug 13, 2017, at 9:24 PM, Tweed lizandtweed@yahoo.co.uk [mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:  I hope this does not kick off another debate on the merits or otherwise of the VW box over the BC, but after reading a very interesting article by a Mike James in John James' 'Totally T type' on aftermarket drop arms , I'm curious.       I'm in the process of replacing the busted VW steering box in 0632 and the drop or Pitman arm supplied with the replacement is totally different to the one on the old unit. Both units are made by TWR, but the old drop arm is a VW original.   Not only is it shorter, but it does not have the same amount of 'offset'.  Also, the tapered hole to accept the rod end is  the other way up ... on the 'old' one, the rod end is mounted on the top and secured from below.  Pro! bably the biggest argument against changing from a BC box is the increased number of turns lock to lock, so having a shorter arm can only exasperate that.   While the use of a longer arm won't reduce the number of turns, it would make for less movement of the wheel to achieve the same amount of lock at the hub  .... so in effect, making for a slightly 'quicker' box.    Or am I talking out of the top of my head?   Tweed.           
         

Clive P Sherriff
Posts: 11
Joined: Sat Feb 20, 2016 12:22 am

Re: Drop arms

Post by Clive P Sherriff » Tue Aug 15, 2017 1:08 am

Steve,   You are sounding like the lawyer for the suppliers defence !   We are not talking about every screw and bolt, though I doubt even you would be happy with a big end bolt supplied in plain mild steel, and your engine certainly would not be !   It's when main components are so far out of spec that they are unusable.   I've had countless experiences, new cam bearings that were unfittable, exhaust systems that would never fit the chassis mountings, new timing tensioners that were so far out that they were unusable, etc. etc. though if you did not know what they should be, many would just fit and forget a component that was worse than that they were replacing.  This supplier complacency of letting the buyer find the faults, giving a refund, and then carrying on selling the same faulty  items to the punters who don't complain through timidity or lack of knowledge  is unacceptable.   Clive m mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm    
----- Original Message ----- [b]From:[/b] morgan7709@sbcglobal.net [mg-tabc] [b]To:[/b] usaj24@earthlink.net ; mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [b]Sent:[/b] Monday, August 14, 2017 10:35 PM [b]Subject:[/b] Re: [mg-tabc] Drop arms   I do know my suppliers; Moss, FTFU, Coker, etc. etc. , folks most of us use. I do not know their suppliers nor do  I have the ability as I think you advocate to know   "OEM QC (Quality  Control) and traceability in mfg. process from raw material to end product".  Not picking nits here, but it is doubtful our suppliers know this about every screw, nut, bolt, spring washer in their catalogs. Sometimes sh!t happens and we all do the best we can to prevent it including the suppliers but lets get real, nobody is going to guarantee perfection on any of this stuff.  Why would a supplier guarantee the use and installation of a VW steering box modified by an individual that is to be installed in a vehicle that it was not meant to be installed in. Steve TC2911 [b]From:[/b] Bill Hyatt usaj24@earthlink.net> To: 'Stephen D Stierman' morgan7709@sbcglobal.net>; 'TABC-Group' mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com> [b]Sent:[/b] Monday, August 14, 2017 4:16 PM [b]Subject:[/b] RE: [mg-tabc] Drop arms Steve, Using aftermarket replacement critical parts not equal or exceeding OEM design specs [b]can [/b]lead to doom & destruction. On the MG- TABC site, a case was recounted where aftermarket main bearing cap studs were obtained from a well known UK MG XPAG supplier & on start up a cap stud fractured & the broken stud and nut bolt ricocheted around sump after being hit by crankshaft destroying inside of engine. An analysis of stud determined they were hardened to V grade, made from inferior bar stock with low levels of nickel & chrome needed to reduce brittleness In high carbon alloys. It also had high levels of sulpher & obvious inclusions suggesting impure stock. Obviously there was no quality control inspection on part of mfgr. or reseller of end product. . I would postulate that relying on feedback from end user for QC is bad practice with no assurance as to what materials mfgr uses, or how he makes the product. Undoubtedly from a third world country where low cost trumps QC. Quality does have a cost. Know your suppliers!     -Bill   [b]From:[/b] mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com] [b]On Behalf Of [/b]Stephen D Stierman morgan7709@sbcglobal.net [mg-tabc] [b]Sent:[/b] Monday, August 14, 2017 3:43 PM [b]To:[/b] Steve S; mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [b]Subject:[/b] Re: [mg-tabc] Drop arms    I think my point is that I would really feel more comfortable with aftermarket critical parts made today given current production techniques even if I don't know where they are made, than I do with the original stuff, given the technology. Steve TC2911   [b]From:[/b] "Steve S mail@mgnuts.com [mg-tabc]" mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> [b]To:[/b] "mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com" mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com> [b]Sent:[/b] Monday, August 14, 2017 2:17 PM [b]Subject:[/b] Re: [mg-tabc] Drop arms     I don't have the original spindles, nor the original drop arm.  But to answer your question, no I wouldn't trust 70 year old parts with an unknown history, that are known to break.  Not sure how my feelings are relevant to the topic but there it is. It was Bill's comment about "aftermarket critical parts with unknown QC issues" that you responded to originally. - Steve Simmons, TC8975   On 8/14/2017 10:36 AM, Stephen D Stierman morgan7709@sbcglobal.net [mg-tabc] wrote:   So you feel confident in those original drop arms and front spindles? You do remember a previous member selling VW steering conversions advising us how much better the VDub drop arms were than the OEM item on a regular basis?  I still have all that original stuff on my car out of choice, but I have to say I really would feel safer using current VW items given the current manufacturing technology no matter where they were made if I decided to go in that direction. Steve TC2911 [b]From:[/b] "Steve S mail@mgnuts.com [mg-tabc]" mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com [b]To:[/b] mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [b]Sent:[/b] Monday, August 14, 2017 1:15 PM [b]Subject:[/b] Re: [mg-tabc] Drop arms. ( Sorry if this appears more than once)     All fair points, but I think the issue is with parts that could kill you if they failed.  A broken axle is a minor inconvenience, but a broken steering component can kill you and whoever you consequently run into.  I don't think anyone is in this hobby thinking that it's ok if it kills them!  We take a risk by driving a car with no modern safety equipment in place, but I think it's reasonable to expect that the steering system will remain in one piece.  If I drive myself off a cliff then ok, but I'd rather it be my mistake than a failed steering arm! - Steve Simmons, TC8975   On 8/14/2017 9:57 AM, Stephen D Stierman morgan7709@sbcglobal.net [mg-tabc] wrote:   Safety?! Give me a break here.  It is a 70 year old car made of wood with a steel tube pointed at the drivers chest and a fuel tank as a rear bumper.  Lighting barely visible after dark, a chassis known to develop stress cracks, rear axles known to break, front spindles that crack and a crank shaft that sometimes breaks across a counter weight.  Made of materials scrounged after a war built with technology from well before. I am sorry I just cannot worry too much about the quality and traceability in manufacturing from raw material to end product.  We are lucky we can still get parts and keep these old crocks on the road for awhile longer.  By simply driving these  vehicles you are assuming a great deal of risk and if this is a big problem, maybe time to choose a different hobby.   Steve TC2911, driving a car as old as I am. [b]From:[/b] %27Usaj24@earthlink.net%27usaj24@earthlink.net[mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com [b]To:[/b] Tweed lizandtweed@yahoo.co.uk [b]Cc:[/b] mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [b]Sent:[/b] Monday, August 14, 2017 9:27 AM [b]Subject:[/b] Re: [mg-tabc] Drop arms. ( Sorry if this appears more than once)     Tweed, No worries, there can never be enough discussion about how or why things break, and preventive measures.   Personally I tend to worry more about fitting aftermarket critical parts with unknown QC issues. However this line of thinking should be more relevant today when NOS OEM  critical parts are becoming unobtanium, and who knows where today's parts are sourced and what level of QC they went through from A to Z. Those touting VALUE of items like OEM VW steering components  should be be promoting advantages they offer in the way of safety in the way of high levels of OEM QC (Quality  Control) and traceability in mfg. process from raw material to end product. Too many vintage critical parts are sourced from suppliers in third world countries based on cost, not degree of quality testing provided throughout mfg. supply chain.   Bill TC 4926   Sent from my iPad On Aug 13, 2017, at 9:24 PM, Tweed lizandtweed@yahoo.co.uk [mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:   I hope this does not kick off another debate on the merits or otherwise of the VW box over the BC, but after reading a very interesting article by a Mike James in John James' 'Totally T type' on aftermarket drop arms , I'm curious.        I'm in the process of replacing the busted VW steering box in 0632 and the drop or Pitman arm supplied with the  replacement is totally different to the one on the old unit. Both units are made by TWR, but the old drop arm is a VW original.     Not only is it shorter, but it does not have the same amount of 'offset'.  Also, the tapered hole to accept the rod end is  the other way up ... on the 'old' one, the rod end is mounted on the top and secured from below.    Pro! bably the biggest argument against changing from a BC box is the increased number of turns lock to lock, so having a shorter arm can only exasperate that.    While the use of a longer arm won't reduce the number of turns, it would make for less movement of the wheel to achieve the same amount of lock at the hub  .... so in effect, making for a slightly 'quicker' box.     Or am I talking out of the top of my head?    Tweed.            
         

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Ron Benson
Posts: 42
Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2003 11:40 am

Re: Drop arms

Post by Ron Benson » Tue Aug 15, 2017 2:13 am

Hi all,

Interesting article in the Octagon CC magazine last month on drop arms I believe by Mike Zimmerman saying that there should be a spacer which the bolt passes through, to prevent excess strain when tightening said bolt. Never seen one myself, has anyone on the list?? Just to change tack does anyone have a picture of a TA/B tool tray(s) with tools in and does anyone make repro. Tool trays?

 

Regards,

Ron Benson  TB  (Awaiting wedding duties)


Stephen D Stierman
Posts: 63
Joined: Fri Dec 26, 2003 5:04 am

Re: Drop arms

Post by Stephen D Stierman » Tue Aug 15, 2017 3:15 am

Clive, I am not a lawyer, I spent over thirty years in procurement and I am not talking about items being out of spec and unusable, nor do I espouse VW steering conversions.  What concerns me is  the statement that the end user should be able to trace the mfg. process of an item from raw material to end product.  While this a noble idea that I respect, it is just not realistic as I see it. Those touting VALUE of items like OEM VW steering components  should be be promoting advantages they offer in the way of safety in the way of high levels of OEM QC (Quality  Control) and traceability in mfg. process from raw material to end product. Steve TC2911 From: Clive P Sherriff csherriff99@gmail.com> [b]To:[/b] Stephen D Stierman morgan7709@sbcglobal.net>; usaj24@earthlink.net; 'TABC-Group' mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2017 4:08 AM Subject: Re: [mg-tabc] Drop arms Steve,   You are sounding like the lawyer for the suppliers defence !   We are not talking about every screw and bolt, though I doubt even you would be happy with a big end bolt supplied in plain mild steel, and your engine certainly would not be !   It's when main components are so far out of spec that they are unusable.   I've had countless experiences, new cam bearings that were unfittable, exhaust systems that would never fit the chassis mountings, new timing tensioners that were so far out that they were unusable, etc. etc. though if you did not know what they should be, many would just fit and forget a component that was worse than that they were replacing.  This supplier complacency of letting the buyer find the faults, giving a refund, and then carrying on selling the same faulty  items to the punters who don't complain through timidity or lack of knowledge  is unacceptable.   Clive m mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm    
----- Original Message ----- [b]From:[/b] morgan7709@sbcglobal.net%20[mg-tabc] [b]To:[/b] usaj24@earthlink.net ; mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [b]Sent:[/b] Monday, August 14, 2017 10:35 PM [b]Subject:[/b] Re: [mg-tabc] Drop arms   I do know my suppliers; Moss, FTFU, Coker, etc. etc. , folks most of us use. I do not know their suppliers nor do  I have the ability as I think you advocate to know   "OEM QC (Quality  Control) and traceability in mfg. process from raw material to end product".  Not picking nits here, but it is doubtful our suppliers know this about every screw, nut, bolt, spring washer in their catalogs. Sometimes sh!t happens and we all do the best we can to prevent it including the suppliers but lets get real, nobody is going to guarantee perfection on any of this stuff.  Why would a supplier guarantee the use and installation of a VW steering box modified by an individual that is to be installed in a vehicle that it was not meant to be installed in. Steve TC2911 [b]From:[/b] Bill Hyatt usaj24@earthlink.net> To: 'Stephen D Stierman' morgan7709@sbcglobal.net>; 'TABC-Group' mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com> [b]Sent:[/b] Monday, August 14, 2017 4:16 PM [b]Subject:[/b] RE: [mg-tabc] Drop arms Steve, Using aftermarket replacement critical parts not equal or exceeding OEM design specs [b]can [/b]lead to doom & destruction. On the MG- TABC site, a case was recounted where aftermarket main bearing cap studs were obtained from a well known UK MG XPAG supplier & on start up a cap stud fractured & the broken stud and nut bolt ricocheted around sump after being hit by crankshaft destroying inside of engine. An analysis of stud determined they were hardened to V grade, made from inferior bar stock with low levels of nickel & chrome needed to reduce brittleness In high carbon alloys. It also had high levels of sulpher & obvious inclusions suggesting impure stock. Obviously there was no quality control inspection on part of mfgr. or reseller of end product. . I would postulate that relying on feedback from end user for QC is bad practice with no assurance as to what materials mfgr uses, or how he makes the product. Undoubtedly from a third world country where low cost trumps QC. Quality does have a cost. Know your suppliers!     -Bill   [b]From:[/b] mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com] [b]On Behalf Of [/b]Stephen D Stierman morgan7709@sbcglobal.net [mg-tabc] [b]Sent:[/b] Monday, August 14, 2017 3:43 PM [b]To:[/b] Steve S; mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [b]Subject:[/b] Re: [mg-tabc] Drop arms    I think my point is that I would really feel more comfortable with aftermarket critical parts made today given current production techniques even if I don't know where they are made, than I do with the original stuff, given the technology. Steve TC2911   [b]From:[/b] "Steve S mail@mgnuts.com [mg-tabc]" mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> [b]To:[/b] "mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com" mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com> [b]Sent:[/b] Monday, August 14, 2017 2:17 PM [b]Subject:[/b] Re: [mg-tabc] Drop arms     I don't have the original spindles, nor the original drop arm.  But to answer your question, no I wouldn't trust 70 year old parts with an unknown history, that are known to break.  Not sure how my feelings are relevant to the topic but there it is. It was Bill's comment about "aftermarket critical parts with unknown QC issues" that you responded to originally. - Steve Simmons, TC8975   On 8/14/2017 10:36 AM, Stephen D Stierman morgan7709@sbcglobal.net [mg-tabc] wrote:   So you feel confident in those original drop arms and front spindles? You do remember a previous member selling VW steering conversions advising us how much better the VDub drop arms were than the OEM item on a regular basis?  I still have all that original stuff on my car out of choice, but I have to say I really would feel safer using current VW items given the current manufacturing technology no matter where they were made if I decided to go in that direction. Steve TC2911 [b]From:[/b] "Steve S mail@mgnuts.com [mg-tabc]" mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com [b]To:[/b] mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [b]Sent:[/b] Monday, August 14, 2017 1:15 PM [b]Subject:[/b] Re: [mg-tabc] Drop arms. ( Sorry if this appears more than once)     All fair points, but I think the issue is with parts that could kill you if they failed.  A broken axle is a minor inconvenience, but a broken steering component can kill you and whoever you consequently run into.  I don't think anyone is in this hobby thinking that it's ok if it kills them!  We take a risk by driving a car with no modern safety equipment in place, but I think it's reasonable to expect that the steering system will remain in one piece.  If I drive myself off a cliff then ok, but I'd rather it be my mistake than a failed steering arm! - Steve Simmons, TC8975   On 8/14/2017 9:57 AM, Stephen D Stierman morgan7709@sbcglobal.net [mg-tabc] wrote:   Safety?! Give me a break here.  It is a 70 year old car made of wood with a steel tube pointed at the drivers chest and a fuel tank as a rear bumper.  Lighting barely visible after dark, a chassis known to develop stress cracks, rear axles known to break, front spindles that crack and a crank shaft that sometimes breaks across a counter weight.  Made of materials scrounged after a war built with technology from well before. I am sorry I just cannot worry too much about the quality and traceability in manufacturing from raw material to end product.  We are lucky we can still get parts and keep these old crocks on the road for awhile longer.  By simply driving these  vehicles you are assuming a great deal of risk and if this is a big problem, maybe time to choose a different hobby.   Steve TC2911, driving a car as old as I am. [b]From:[/b] %27Usaj24@earthlink.net%27usaj24@earthlink.net[mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com [b]To:[/b] Tweed lizandtweed@yahoo.co.uk [b]Cc:[/b] mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [b]Sent:[/b] Monday, August 14, 2017 9:27 AM [b]Subject:[/b] Re: [mg-tabc] Drop arms. ( Sorry if this appears more than once)     Tweed, No worries, there can never be enough discussion about how or why things break, and preventive measures.   Personally I tend to worry more about fitting aftermarket critical parts with unknown QC issues. However this line of thinking should be more relevant today when NOS OEM  critical parts are becoming unobtanium, and who knows where today's parts are sourced and what level of QC they went through from A to Z. Those touting VALUE of items like OEM VW steering components  should be be promoting advantages they offer in the way of safety in the way of high levels of OEM QC (Quality  Control) and traceability in mfg. process from raw material to end product. Too many vintage critical parts are sourced from suppliers in third world countries based on cost, not degree of quality testing provided throughout mfg. supply chain.   Bill TC 4926   Sent from my iPad On Aug 13, 2017, at 9:24 PM, Tweed lizandtweed@yahoo.co.uk [mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:   I hope this does not kick off another debate on the merits or otherwise of the VW box over the BC, but after reading a very interesting article by a Mike James in John James' 'Totally T type' on aftermarket drop arms , I'm curious.        I'm in the process of replacing the busted VW steering box in 0632 and the drop or Pitman arm supplied with the  replacement is totally different to the one on the old unit. Both units are made by TWR, but the old drop arm is a VW original.     Not only is it shorter, but it does not have the same amount of 'offset'.  Also, the tapered hole to accept the rod end is  the other way up ... on the 'old' one, the rod end is mounted on the top and secured from below.    Pro! bably the biggest argument against changing from a BC box is the increased number of turns lock to lock, so having a shorter arm can only exasperate that.    While the use of a longer arm won't reduce the number of turns, it would make for less movement of the wheel to achieve the same amount of lock at the hub  .... so in effect, making for a slightly 'quicker' box.     Or am I talking out of the top of my head?    Tweed.            
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jeffrey townsend
Posts: 60
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2009 1:27 am

Re: Drop arms

Post by jeffrey townsend » Tue Aug 15, 2017 4:03 am

Hi Ron, I bought my TB ones from Ian Pooley from Tenterden. Contact 01580 764442, email poo@burren.fsbusiness.co.uk These are contact details from 2004 so may have changed. They are supposed to be the best, using good moulds. I will take pics of my trays in the car and forward later. There is much conjecture about what are correct tools so no guarantee that mine are correct. Regards, Jeff [b]From:[/b] mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of 'Ron Benson' ronb9131@virginmedia.com [mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> [b]Sent:[/b] 15 August 2017 10:13 [b]To:[/b] mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [b]Subject:[/b] [mg-tabc] Re: Drop arms     Hi all,

Interesting article in the Octagon CC magazine last month on drop arms I believe by Mike Zimmerman saying that there should be a spacer which the bolt passes through, to prevent excess strain when tightening said bolt. Never seen one myself, has anyone on the list?? Just to change tack does anyone have a picture of a TA/B tool tray(s) with tools in and does anyone make repro. Tool trays?

 

Regards,

Ron Benson  TB  (Awaiting wedding duties)


Norman Verona
Posts: 107
Joined: Sun May 17, 2015 4:21 am

Re: Drop arms

Post by Norman Verona » Tue Aug 15, 2017 4:49 am

All the current car makers and all aerospace components will be made under ISO 9000 standards. This means that all components are traceable to the original manufacturer and their batch numbers.

 

If these items are made in the EU or USA they will be fully traceable and made to exacting standards. Most Chinese manufacturers can make goods to these standards but are often, in effect, asked not to so to keep the price low. India is the unknown, I m sure they will comply and some probably do.

 

I have bought some excellent product from China, and I ve seen some real rubbish, it depends on what you re prepared to pay.

 

 

[b][i]Norman Verona[/i][/b]

11 Cherry Close, Royston, South Yorkshire S71 4LZ

Phone: 0044 (0)1226 728811

Mob: 0044 (0)741 9905 741

[b][i]Web: www.frenchblat.com[/i][/b]

 

[b]From:[/b] mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com] [b]On Behalf Of [/b]Stephen D Stierman morgan7709@sbcglobal.net [mg-tabc] [b]Sent:[/b] 15 August 2017 11:15 [b]To:[/b] Clive P Sherriff csherriff99@gmail.com>; usaj24@earthlink.net; 'TABC-Group' mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com> [b]Subject:[/b] Re: [mg-tabc] Drop arms

 

 

Clive, I am not a lawyer, I spent over thirty years in procurement and I am not talking about items being out of spec and unusable, nor do I espouse VW steering conversions.  What concerns me is  the statement that the end user should be able to trace the mfg. process of an item from raw material to end product.  While this a noble idea that I respect, it is just not realistic as I see it.

 

Those touting VALUE of items like OEM VW steering components  should be be promoting advantages they offer in the way of safety in the way of high levels of OEM QC (Quality  Control) and traceability in mfg. process from raw material to end product.

 

Steve TC2911

 

From: Clive P Sherriff csherriff99@gmail.com> [b]To:[/b] Stephen D Stierman morgan7709@sbcglobal.net>; usaj24@earthlink.net; 'TABC-Group' mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2017 4:08 AM Subject: Re: [mg-tabc] Drop arms

 

Steve,

 

You are sounding like the lawyer for the suppliers defence !

 

We are not talking about every screw and bolt, though I doubt even you would be happy with a big end bolt supplied in plain mild steel, and your engine certainly would not be !

 

It's when main components are so far out of spec that they are unusable.   I've had countless experiences, new cam bearings that were unfittable, exhaust systems that would never fit the chassis mountings, new timing tensioners that were so far out that they were unusable, etc. etc. though if you did not know what they should be, many would just fit and forget a component that was worse than that they were replacing.

 

This supplier complacency of letting the buyer find the faults, giving a refund, and then carrying on selling the same faulty  items to the punters who don't complain through timidity or lack of knowledge  is unacceptable.

 

Clive

m mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

 

 

----- Original Message -----

[b]From:[/b] morgan7709@sbcglobal.net%20[mg-tabc]

[b]To:[/b] usaj24@earthlink.net ; mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com

[b]Sent:[/b] Monday, August 14, 2017 10:35 PM

[b]Subject:[/b] Re: [mg-tabc] Drop arms

 

 

I do know my suppliers; Moss, FTFU, Coker, etc. etc. , folks most of us use.

 

I do not know their suppliers nor do  I have the ability as I think you advocate to know   "OEM QC (Quality  Control) and traceability in mfg. process from raw material to end product". 

 

Not picking nits here, but it is doubtful our suppliers know this about every screw, nut, bolt, spring washer in their catalogs. Sometimes sh!t happens and we all do the best we can to prevent it including the suppliers but lets get real, nobody is going to guarantee perfection on any of this stuff.  Why would a supplier guarantee the use and installation of a VW steering box modified by an individual that is to be installed in a vehicle that it was not meant to be installed in.

 

Steve TC2911

 

[b]From:[/b] Bill Hyatt usaj24@earthlink.net> To: 'Stephen D Stierman' morgan7709@sbcglobal.net>; 'TABC-Group' mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com> [b]Sent:[/b] Monday, August 14, 2017 4:16 PM [b]Subject:[/b] RE: [mg-tabc] Drop arms

 

Steve,

Using aftermarket replacement critical parts not equal or exceeding OEM design specs [b]can [/b]lead to doom & destruction.

On the MG- TABC site, a case was recounted where aftermarket main bearing cap studs were obtained from a well known UK MG XPAG supplier & on start up a cap stud fractured & the broken stud and nut bolt ricocheted around sump after being hit by crankshaft destroying inside of engine. An analysis of stud determined they were hardened to V grade, made from inferior bar stock with low levels of nickel & chrome needed to reduce brittleness

In high carbon alloys. It also had high levels of sulpher & obvious inclusions suggesting impure stock. Obviously there was no quality control inspection on part of mfgr. or reseller of end product. . I would postulate that relying on feedback from end user for QC is bad practice with no assurance as to what materials mfgr uses, or how he makes the product. Undoubtedly from a third world country where low cost trumps QC. Quality does have a cost. Know your suppliers!

 

 

-Bill

 

[b]From:[/b] mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com] [b]On Behalf Of [/b]Stephen D Stierman morgan7709@sbcglobal.net [mg-tabc] [b]Sent:[/b] Monday, August 14, 2017 3:43 PM [b]To:[/b] Steve S; mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [b]Subject:[/b] Re: [mg-tabc] Drop arms

 

 I think my point is that I would really feel more comfortable with aftermarket critical parts made today given current production techniques even if I don't know where they are made, than I do with the original stuff, given the technology.

Steve TC2911

 

[b]From:[/b] "Steve S mail@mgnuts.com [mg-tabc]" mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> [b]To:[/b] "mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com" mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com> [b]Sent:[/b] Monday, August 14, 2017 2:17 PM [b]Subject:[/b] Re: [mg-tabc] Drop arms

 

 

I don't have the original spindles, nor the original drop arm.  But to answer your question, no I wouldn't trust 70 year old parts with an unknown history, that are known to break.  Not sure how my feelings are relevant to the topic but there it is.

It was Bill's comment about "aftermarket critical parts with unknown QC issues" that you responded to originally.

- Steve Simmons, TC8975

 

On 8/14/2017 10:36 AM, Stephen D Stierman morgan7709@sbcglobal.net [mg-tabc] wrote:

 

So you feel confident in those original drop arms and front spindles?

You do remember a previous member selling VW steering conversions advising us how much better the VDub drop arms were than the OEM item on a regular basis?  I still have all that original stuff on my car out of choice, but I have to say I really would feel safer using current VW items given the current manufacturing technology no matter where they were made if I decided to go in that direction.

Steve TC2911

[b]From:[/b] "Steve S mail@mgnuts.com [mg-tabc]" mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com [b]To:[/b] mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [b]Sent:[/b] Monday, August 14, 2017 1:15 PM [b]Subject:[/b] Re: [mg-tabc] Drop arms. ( Sorry if this appears more than once)

 

 

All fair points, but I think the issue is with parts that could kill you if they failed.  A broken axle is a minor inconvenience, but a broken steering component can kill you and whoever you consequently run into.  I don't think anyone is in this hobby thinking that it's ok if it kills them!  We take a risk by driving a car with no modern safety equipment in place, but I think it's reasonable to expect that the steering system will remain in one piece.  If I drive myself off a cliff then ok, but I'd rather it be my mistake than a failed steering arm!

- Steve Simmons, TC8975

 

On 8/14/2017 9:57 AM, Stephen D Stierman morgan7709@sbcglobal.net [mg-tabc] wrote:

 

Safety?! Give me a break here.  It is a 70 year old car made of wood with a steel tube pointed at the drivers chest and a fuel tank as a rear bumper.  Lighting barely visible after dark, a chassis known to develop stress cracks, rear axles known to break, front spindles that crack and a crank shaft that sometimes breaks across a counter weight.  Made of materials scrounged after a war built with technology from well before.

I am sorry I just cannot worry too much about the quality and traceability in manufacturing from raw material to end product.  We are lucky we can still get parts and keep these old crocks on the road for awhile longer.  By simply driving these  vehicles you are assuming a great deal of risk and if this is a big problem, maybe time to choose a different hobby.

 

Steve TC2911, driving a car as old as I am.

[b]From:[/b] %27Usaj24@earthlink.net%27usaj24@earthlink.net[mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com [b]To:[/b] Tweed lizandtweed@yahoo.co.uk [b]Cc:[/b] mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [b]Sent:[/b] Monday, August 14, 2017 9:27 AM [b]Subject:[/b] Re: [mg-tabc] Drop arms. ( Sorry if this appears more than once)

 

 

Tweed,

No worries, there can never be enough discussion about how or why things break, and preventive measures.  

Personally I tend to worry more about fitting aftermarket critical parts with unknown QC issues. However this line of thinking should be more relevant today when NOS OEM  critical parts are becoming unobtanium, and who knows where today's parts are sourced and what level of QC they went through from A to Z.

Those touting VALUE of items like OEM VW steering components  should be be promoting advantages they offer in the way of safety in the way of high levels of OEM QC (Quality  Control) and traceability in mfg. process from raw material to end product.

Too many vintage critical parts are sourced from suppliers in third world countries based on cost, not degree of quality testing provided throughout mfg. supply chain.

 

Bill

TC 4926

 

Sent from my iPad

On Aug 13, 2017, at 9:24 PM, Tweed lizandtweed@yahoo.co.uk [mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

I hope this does not kick off another debate on the merits or otherwise of the VW box over the BC, but after reading a very interesting article by a Mike James in John James' 'Totally T type' on aftermarket drop arms , I'm curious.     

 

I'm in the process of replacing the busted VW steering box in 0632 and the drop or Pitman arm supplied with the 

replacement is totally different to the one on the old unit. Both units are made by TWR, but the old drop arm is a VW original. 

  

Not only is it shorter, but it does not have the same amount of 'offset'.  Also, the tapered hole to accept the rod end is  the other way up ... on the 'old' one, the rod end is mounted on the top and secured from below. 

 

Pro! bably the biggest argument against changing from a BC box is the increased number of turns lock to lock, so having a shorter arm can only exasperate that.   

While the use of a longer arm won't reduce the number of turns, it would make for less movement of the wheel to achieve the same amount of lock at the hub  .... so in effect, making for a slightly 'quicker' box.  

 

Or am I talking out of the top of my head? 

 

Tweed. 

 

  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Jean Vignau
Posts: 21
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2016 10:45 am

Re: Drop arms

Post by Jean Vignau » Tue Aug 15, 2017 8:52 am

Bonjour tous,
 
I am trying to get my connection with Yahoo work well again and be able to start a new topic when necessary. In the meantime and, as tyres are close to drop arms, can you tell me the pressures front/rear for a TB with 16 wheels/tyres ?
 
I fitted a VW steering and am not satisfied of the result and want to check if the road holding improves with 16 wheels as the 19 ones could be out of truth
and I ll have to buy new ones then as nobody here seems able to make them true again.
It is just for a test as I definitely don t like the look of poor TB0592 with them.
 
Merci tous
Jean

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