nklr apple?

[jokerloco9@aol.com]

I have a 2006 KLr. I live in southern Kalifornia. I bought it in July, rode it in many 100+ degree days. It only got to about 70% of the hot scale in stop and go traffic. My point is a new bike doesn't have overheating problems, at least mine doesn't. Did your bikes have a problem when new? Perhaps the problem is nothing other that the current condition of your existing cooling system. Yes, I would also prefer a larger margin for error when it comes to cooling, but perhaps the stock system actually is adequate. Jeff A20 -----Original Message----- From: clint lee jin yew To: DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 12:20:28 -0000 Subject: [DSN_KLR650] Re: KLR Cooler Weather Temp Check a thicker radiator would be nice , true, but in the case of the klr, the forks will hit the top it it were thicker forward, and if it was thicker rearwards , the fan would hit the tank. In my opinion, what the klr needs is a radiator which spans from the left panel to the right , it should be wide. like the f650 or yamaha xt design.. but that would bring new implecations. we'd have to work with a new design for the mudguard up front. it should be of a sttep angle so that the mudguard wont hit the radiator , and should be high enough so that mud wont clog the front wheel. we see this also in the f650gs and the yamaha xt my guess its up to the duides who are good at fabrication here. clint

--- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, a14@a... wrote: > > > For that reason I've been playing with different ideas just to see their > > contribution. The big three: Distilled Water and corrosion inhibiter, the > > "patman mod" (blocking bypass flow around the left side of the radiator) and > > moving the front fender down low. Those three together were worth 23 percent... > > in that configuration the bike stabilizes at 89 degrees over ambient, which is > > 26 degrees lower. Not bad for skipping the "complexity" of a second radiator, > > which I was considering originally as well. > > > > Anyway, I'll cover all this in the writeup (and the contributions of each) but > > that's the basic finding of the testing. > > > > Bill Watson > > Phoenix > > > > > > Have you considered a custom made thicker (maybe an inch) radiator? > > Walt > Archive Quicksearch at: http://www.angelfire.com/ut/moab/klr650_data_search.html List sponsored by Dual Sport News at: www.dualsportnews.com List FAQ courtesy of Chris Krok at: www.bigcee.com/klr650faq.html Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[clint lee jin yew]

the stock system is adequate, if one rides in normal conditions. but being a dual sport rider, we tend to ride fast and ride anywhere we can. riding off road and through trails, the radiator fan is sure to come up. but it cant for long. it is known to burn out. even riding through massive traffic jams on very slow speeds, the bike will heat up. bare in mind, an engine running at high temps will: wear off the engine oil faster wear off parts faster gaskets and seals will be more prone to failure. now lets see the benifits of having a bigger radiator: we'd be carrying a larger volume of water. the radiator would have a bigger surface to throw away the unwanted heat. a more constant engine tempreture can be achived. imagine, we'd have more water flowing through the fins. if one asks about over-cooling, we've got a thermostat for that. it will open fully when the water is too hot at the cyclinder head and close when the cyclinder head water is cold. the thing will be closed most of the time if radiator was bingger. ask racing car drivers. most of them throw away thier stock radiators and get bigger ones. it will benefit those with engine mods too clint

--- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, jokerloco9@a... wrote: > > I have a 2006 KLr. I live in southern Kalifornia. I bought it in July, rode it in many 100+ degree days. It only got to about 70% of the hot scale in stop and go traffic. > > My point is a new bike doesn't have overheating problems, at least mine doesn't. Did your bikes have a problem when new? Perhaps the problem is nothing other that the current condition of your existing cooling system. > > Yes, I would also prefer a larger margin for error when it comes to cooling, but perhaps the stock system actually is adequate. > > Jeff A20 > > -----Original Message----- > From: clint lee jin yew > To: DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 12:20:28 -0000 > Subject: [DSN_KLR650] Re: KLR Cooler Weather Temp Check > > > a thicker radiator would be nice , true, but in the case of the klr, > the forks will hit the top it it were thicker forward, and if it was > thicker rearwards , the fan would hit the tank. > > In my opinion, what the klr needs is a radiator which spans from the > left panel to the right , it should be wide. like the f650 or yamaha > xt design.. > > but that would bring new implecations. we'd have to work with a new > design for the mudguard up front. it should be of a sttep angle so > that the mudguard wont hit the radiator , and should be high enough > so that mud wont clog the front wheel. we see this also in the f650gs > and the yamaha xt > > my guess its up to the duides who are good at fabrication here. > > clint > > > > > --- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, a14@a... wrote: > > > > > For that reason I've been playing with different ideas just to > see their > > > contribution. The big three: Distilled Water and corrosion > inhibiter, the > > > "patman mod" (blocking bypass flow around the left side of the > radiator) and > > > moving the front fender down low. Those three together were > worth 23 percent... > > > in that configuration the bike stabilizes at 89 degrees over > ambient, which is > > > 26 degrees lower. Not bad for skipping the "complexity" of a > second radiator, > > > which I was considering originally as well. > > > > > > Anyway, I'll cover all this in the writeup (and the contributions > of each) but > > > that's the basic finding of the testing. > > > > > > Bill Watson > > > Phoenix > > > > > > > > > > Have you considered a custom made thicker (maybe an inch) radiator? > > > > Walt > > > > > > > > > Archive Quicksearch at: http://www.angelfire.com/ut/moab/klr650_data_search.html > List sponsored by Dual Sport News at: www.dualsportnews.com > List FAQ courtesy of Chris Krok at: www.bigcee.com/klr650faq.html > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

[Bill Watson]

Yes, I did consider that (as well as a taller radiator) but figured since either of those would cost hundreds of dollars, that I might want to quantify how much the "free stuff" was worth first. Bill a14@... wrote: Have you considered a custom made thicker (maybe an inch) radiator? Walt __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Bill Watson]

>>From: jokerloco9@... >>I have a 2006 KLr. I live in southern Kalifornia. I bought it in >>July, rode it in many 100+ degree days. It only got to about 70% of the >>hot scale in stop and go traffic.

Agreed, and that's about 230 to 240F if you check! I don't think that's a terrible number, but the bike gets there in about 2 minutes of idling at a long red light if you don't have the fan in automatic mode. The cooling fan is the only thing that saves the day. Clearly these bikes seem to last a long time, I was just speaking in a theoretical standpoint of what the goal would be - constant temp all year, rather than "too cold" all winter and a little "too hot" all summer. I've calibrated a few bikes and have made the following gauge face at: www.xanga.com/watt_man and this might give you an idea of what the basic landmarks on the gauge mean. A few of the group members have installed them as well.

>>My point is a new bike doesn't have overheating problems, at least mine >>doesn't. Did your bikes have a problem when new? Perhaps the problem >>is nothing other that the current condition of your existing cooling >>system.

Depends if you consider 230-240F to be overheating or not. You're finding what we have as well, that the bikes run about 110-120 degrees above ambient at speed. (At idle they'd be "400" degrees above ambient if the fan wasn't there.). Overall my goal is a little better cooling system for the hot summer, and a hotter stat for the cold winter so the bike is closer to the same operating temps throughout the year. Right now it runs 172 all winter and 220-240 all summer.

>>Yes, I would also prefer a larger margin for error when it comes to >>cooling, but perhaps the stock system actually is adequate.

Can't aruge with that, these bikes seem pretty robust. I don't want to play the Chicken Little thing and tell you all that everything is terrible. From that perspective I totally agree with you Jeff. On the other hand, I like tinkering and wanted to understand how the system responds, and if I could also quantify for the group how well some of the suggested mods do or don't work, it might be beneficial to all. Bill Watson Phoenix --------------------------------- Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Conall]

I have a manual switch for the radiator cooling fan, I turn on the fan before the temp gets too hot, result is my bike never gets hot. Cost me about $7, if that. Conall

--- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, Bill Watson wrote: > > Agreed, and that's about 230 to 240F if you check! I don't think that's a terrible number, but the bike gets there in about 2 minutes of idling at a long red light if you don't have the fan in automatic mode. The cooling fan is the only thing that saves the day. Clearly these bikes seem to last a long time, I was just speaking in a theoretical standpoint of what the goal would be - constant temp all year, rather than "too cold" all winter and a little "too hot" all summer. > > Bill Watson > Phoenix

[jokerloco9@aol.com]

Thicker radiators aren't as good as you think - remember the air is being heated as it is going through the radiator - it cools by difference in temperature between the coolant and the air going through it. It is far more efficient to increase the surface area of the radiator. Yes, I know it isn't easy to do this on the KLR. But the cooling system worked when new, so it is probably easier to find out why your cooling system is not working as designed. Jeff -----Original Message----- From: Bill Watson To: a14@...; DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 21:44:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [DSN_KLR650] Re: KLR Cooler Weather Temp Check Yes, I did consider that (as well as a taller radiator) but figured since either of those would cost hundreds of dollars, that I might want to quantify how much the "free stuff" was worth first. Bill a14@... wrote: Have you considered a custom made thicker (maybe an inch) radiator? Walt __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Archive Quicksearch at: http://www.angelfire.com/ut/moab/klr650_data_search.html List sponsored by Dual Sport News at: www.dualsportnews.com List FAQ courtesy of Chris Krok at: www.bigcee.com/klr650faq.html Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Bill Watson]

Jeff, I totally agree with your statement about thickness vs. surface area, I just didn't go into it when answering Walt's email. I thought it would take too long to explain, but here you've done it quite well in only a couple of lines - nice job. Agreed, that's why I said "as well as a taller radiator" which was REALLY what I considered rather than a thicker one.

>>But the cooling system worked when new, so it is probably easier to find out why your >>cooling system is not working as designed.

We're just documenting the stock system that IS working as designed. 170 F all winter, 210-240 F all summer.... (and the occasional poster that pegs the gauge at 280). It works, but I wouldn't exactly say it's optimized from the factory. Bill Watson Phoenix jokerloco9@... wrote: Thicker radiators aren't as good as you think - remember the air is being heated as it is going through the radiator - it cools by difference in temperature between the coolant and the air going through it. It is far more efficient to increase the surface area of the radiator. Yes, I know it isn't easy to do this on the KLR. But the cooling system worked when new, so it is probably easier to find out why your cooling system is not working as designed. Jeff -----Original Message----- From: Bill Watson To: a14@...; DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 21:44:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [DSN_KLR650] Re: KLR Cooler Weather Temp Check .AOLPlainTextBody { margin: 0px; font-family: Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, Sans-Serif; font-size: 12px; color: #000; background-color: #fff; }.AOLPlainTextBody pre { font-size: 9pt;}.AOLInlineAttachment { margin: 10px;}.AOLAttachmentHeader { border-bottom: 2px solid #E9EAEB; background: #F9F9F9;}.AOLAttachmentHeader .Title { font: 11px Tahoma; font-weight: bold; color: #666666; background: #E9EAEB; padding: 3px 0px 1px 10px;}.AOLAttachmentHeader .FieldLabel { font: 11px Tahoma; font-weight: bold; color: #666666; padding: 1px 10px 1px 9px;}.AOLAttachmentHeader .FieldValue { font: 11px Tahoma; color: #333333;} Yes, I did consider that (as well as a taller radiator) but figured since either of those would cost hundreds of dollars, that I might want to quantify how much the "free stuff" was worth first. Billa14@... wrote:Have you considered a custom made thicker (maybe an inch) radiator?Walt __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[jokerloco9@aol.com]

230 degrees is fine. Remember thermodynamics - the KLR will shed more calories of excess heat at 230 degrees than it will at 180 degrees. delta T is what matters. Who cares what the coolant temp is. (in the radiator). Engines run most efficient at higher temperatures, with an obvious upper limit, which should be set by the thermostat temp. Clearly, Kawasaki knows what that limit is, as the engine obviously works for an extended period of time. The bike has a thermostat, (I assume, as I have never seen a liquid cooled motor that didn't), so the motor is seeing a relatively constant temperature, of whatever temp the thermostat is. Are you measuring the coolant temp inside the motor, or at the radiator? If it was changing from say 150 to 250 degrees at the same place INSIDE the motor, then there is a problem, such as bad thermostat or actually an insufficient cooling system. As far as the idea of the electric fan being some sort of "saving the day", (kind of implys that it a afterthought bogus fix to a design defect), every liquid cooled vehicle I have seen in the last 50 years had some sort of fan on it. Yes, I'm sure you can find the 1 in 1000 exceptions. But a fan, mechanical or electric, is standard equipment. Your problems will likely be gone if you return or repair your cooling system to stock, and the 3 modifications you mentioned will help any cooling system. Beyond that, you are doing hobby tinkering on the bike. Nothing wrong with that, but it doesn't mean there is anything wrong with the bike. The 3 modifications - I forgot your description of the KLR mods, but in general - regarding any cooling system: Anything to increase or direct airflow into the radiator will help - through shrouds, air deflectors, removing obstructions, etc. I think the KLR fix is the improved air deflector, and moving the mudflap thats in the airstream in front of the radiator. Anything that increases heat transfer helps - plain water transfers heat better than antifreeze. But you also need anti-rust additive and water pump lube. These are things normally in antifreeze. Remember that antifreeze is put in to prevent freezing and the catastrophic damage that can cause - it's lower heat transfer coefficient is just considered a minor drawback. Ever read the antifreeze container and looked at the chart of what concentration to use? It is standard procedure to run water and anti-rust/lube in race cars. By the way, removing the thermostat in the attempt to "increase cooling" is a major dumb-ass thing to do. Just thought I would mention that, because an amazing number of people think it helps. By the way, you mention "having the fan in automatic mode"? I didn't know you can shut it off. Would you shut off the electric fan on you car and only turn it on when you think you need it? I guess I have to refer you to my earlier comment about returning the bike to stock and leaving it the hell alone! If you have a switch that you can shut off, you are guaranteed to forget it some time when you need it, and do some damage. By the way, I'm sure I'm going to hear about the fantastic engineerring of the doohickey, as if there is a problem there, then there can also be a problem with the cooling system. Jeff -----Original Message----- From: Bill Watson To: DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 22:03:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [DSN_KLR650] Re: KLR Cooler Weather Temp Check

>>From: jokerloco9@... >>I have a 2006 KLr. I live in southern Kalifornia. I bought it in >>July, rode it in many 100+ degree days. It only got to about 70% of the >>hot scale in stop and go traffic.

Agreed, and that's about 230 to 240F if you check! I don't think that's a terrible number, but the bike gets there in about 2 minutes of idling at a long red light if you don't have the fan in automatic mode. The cooling fan is the only thing that saves the day. Clearly these bikes seem to last a long time, I was just speaking in a theoretical standpoint of what the goal would be - constant temp all year, rather than "too cold" all winter and a little "too hot" all summer. I've calibrated a few bikes and have made the following gauge face at: www.xanga.com/watt_man and this might give you an idea of what the basic landmarks on the gauge mean. A few of the group members have installed them as well.

>>My point is a new bike doesn't have overheating problems, at least mine >>doesn't. Did your bikes have a problem when new? Perhaps the problem >>is nothing other that the current condition of your existing cooling >>system.

Depends if you consider 230-240F to be overheating or not. You're finding what we have as well, that the bikes run about 110-120 degrees above ambient at speed. (At idle they'd be "400" degrees above ambient if the fan wasn't there.). Overall my goal is a little better cooling system for the hot summer, and a hotter stat for the cold winter so the bike is closer to the same operating temps throughout the year. Right now it runs 172 all winter and 220-240 all summer.

>>Yes, I would also prefer a larger margin for error when it comes to >>cooling, but perhaps the stock system actually is adequate.

Can't aruge with that, these bikes seem pretty robust. I don't want to play the Chicken Little thing and tell you all that everything is terrible. From that perspective I totally agree with you Jeff. On the other hand, I like tinkering and wanted to understand how the system responds, and if I could also quantify for the group how well some of the suggested mods do or don't work, it might be beneficial to all. Bill Watson Phoenix --------------------------------- Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Archive Quicksearch at: http://www.angelfire.com/ut/moab/klr650_data_search.html List sponsored by Dual Sport News at: www.dualsportnews.com List FAQ courtesy of Chris Krok at: www.bigcee.com/klr650faq.html Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[jokerloco9@aol.com]

I just made another post to the list, but it seems like you know what is going on. I agree with what you are doing. I also won't say the cooling system is optimized, but it works. I thought the radiator was a bit small, but it is probably that size for, of all things, styling. Compromises are always made between engineering, styling, and the bean counters! I just don't want someone to spend time and money making a fix on a possible non-issue and having it worse. Stock usually works! Jeff -----Original Message----- From: Bill Watson To: jokerloco9@...; a14@...; DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 08:21:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [DSN_KLR650] Re: KLR Cooler Weather Temp Check Jeff, I totally agree with your statement about thickness vs. surface area, I just didn't go into it when answering Walt's email. I thought it would take too long to explain, but here you've done it quite well in only a couple of lines - nice job. Agreed, that's why I said "as well as a taller radiator" which was REALLY what I considered rather than a thicker one.

>>But the cooling system worked when new, so it is probably easier to find out why your >>cooling system is not working as designed.

We're just documenting the stock system that IS working as designed. 170 F all winter, 210-240 F all summer.... (and the occasional poster that pegs the gauge at 280). It works, but I wouldn't exactly say it's optimized from the factory. Bill Watson Phoenix jokerloco9@... wrote: Thicker radiators aren't as good as you think - remember the air is being heated as it is going through the radiator - it cools by difference in temperature between the coolant and the air going through it. It is far more efficient to increase the surface area of the radiator. Yes, I know it isn't easy to do this on the KLR. But the cooling system worked when new, so it is probably easier to find out why your cooling system is not working as designed. Jeff -----Original Message----- From: Bill Watson To: a14@...; DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 21:44:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [DSN_KLR650] Re: KLR Cooler Weather Temp Check Yes, I did consider that (as well as a taller radiator) but figured since either of those would cost hundreds of dollars, that I might want to quantify how much the "free stuff" was worth first. Bill a14@... wrote: Have you considered a custom made thicker (maybe an inch) radiator? Walt __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Mike Frey]

I can find the 1 in 1000 exception! It's in my garage - Suzuki GT-750 "Water Buffalo" - no fan from 1974 to 1977. The 1972-73 models had fans, but they never came on, so Suzuki simply deleted it. The temp indicators on those bikes never move after warm up. They have huge radiators jokerloco9@... wrote:

> >As far as the idea of the electric fan being some sort of "saving the day", (kind of implys that it a afterthought bogus fix to a design defect), every liquid cooled vehicle I have seen in the last 50 years had some sort of fan on it. Yes, I'm sure you can find the 1 in 1000 exceptions. > > >